Using Dry Beach Program on land

[vferrari]

Short answer: Disc 10 (with Iron Volume = 0) is not the same as Notch 0 - 10 with no Disc (there is no sense in notching 0 -10 if you have Disc set to 10 but in that case, I guess it would be the same as iron volume of 0). With no discrimination set, then the Iron Volume setting does not matter.


Setting discrimination at 10 and setting iron volume at 0 is not exactly the same as Notching 0-10 (with disc off) because the notch is just an audio filter whereas discrimination affects the way the ferrous and non-ferrous signals are processed. Discriminating out ferrous at 0 - 10 may enable the Deus to better process some non-ferrous that may be in the vicinity of the ferrous target that is getting discriminated out whereas simply notching 0 - 10 may mean that the ferrous signal may pull down the non-ferrous signal Target ID even is the ferrous is not audible due to the notch. Too much Disc is a bad thing because it then starts adversely affecting the non-ferrous targets such that you might start suffering detection depth issues. Again the iron volume setting should not have any affect on detection depth other than you may hear simultaneous iron grunts along with the non-ferrous signal in the headphones.

 

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[Bharpring]

So the Iron Volume only comes into play when there is some Discrimination set in a Tone Program. So why is Iron Volume not a factor in Full Tones if you set some Disc? Is that because the tone is so low for the ferrous in Full Tones?

 

[vferrari]

So the Iron Volume only comes into play when there is some Discrimination set in a Tone Program. So why is Iron Volume not a factor in Full Tones if you set some Disc? Is that because the tone is so low for the ferrous in Full Tones?

That is a good question (in fact, all of your questions have been good questions). I do not know why you lose the iron volume feature in full tones but I have verified that if I set discrimination, then no matter where I have iron volume set, I do not get any iron tones if they fall within the discrimination range. One theory I have is that the discrimination setpoint also determines the first tone break in multi-tone modes (2, 3, 4, or 5-tone) and there is no way to set tone breaks in full tones (in fact this is another minor drawback to full tones that I will explain below). So maybe iron volume is keyed off knowing where the first tone break is set (rather than disc) and if you are in full tones with discrimination, it cannot "see" that first tone break either due to discrimination or because the first tone break setting is actually dependent on frequency (again, see below). I am reaching here, but that's all I can think of. It seems that XP could have implemented Iron Volume in full tones if it chose to do that from a technical standpoint, but perhaps the way they actually implemented it (i.e., using the first tone break, conjectured) precluded its use in full tones. Who knows? Maybe someone out there knows better or has a better theory.

Regarding FULL TONES and the other supposed "drawback" (other than no iron volume). We know that if ID Normalization is turned off then the target ID's for a given target rise with increasing operating frequency (e.g., a nickel may ring up as 37 at 4 khz, 47 at 8 khz, 55 at 12 khz, and 64 at 18 khz and so forth for the higher HF frequencies). Note that in full tones, the corresponding tones for a given target also increase in tonal frequency consistent with the target ids as shown above. I believe there is a unique tone for each target ID or group of three target ids (I cannot get confirmation on whether there are 99 or 32 unique "full" tones). That always stays the same, but since the target ID increases with frequency then the tone for that target will increase corresponding to the target ID increase. The disadvantege to full tones vs. the multi-tone setup is that in multi-tones you can program in compensation for the increase in target id such that the range of IDs for a given set of targets at a given operating frequency can be adjusted and saved for each operating frequency. This enables each of the tones corresponding to a certain target ID/conductivity range to remain the same by simply sliding the tone breaks up as necessary to cover the increase in target ID response at each range. That way your low-, mid-, and high-conductor tonal breakpoint ranges will always "sound" the same even though your target IDs have increased with frequency. With full tones you just have to take what you get tone wise as the frequency increases. On the flip-side if you use full tones you don't have to embark on the tedious process of setting up all those tone breaks. Lol. User's choice.

 

[Bharpring]

yes, this is all true. Theoretically if you set Disc at 10, what type of non ferrous target would be desirable within the Disc range (that may be masked by iron or aluminum)? So why would it be better to use Disc 10, Iron Vol 3 vs. Disc -6.4, notch 0-10?

Unless setting the Disc at 10 unmasked non ferrous targets in VID ranges above 10 for some reason?

 

[vferrari]

That's what I’m saying, without Disc filtering and using Notch 0 - 10, instead, you may actually suppress or lower the target Id's of non ferrous targets that don't reside within the notched range. Disc may help to avert target ID sppression/lowering. This is a case basis thing dependent on so many variables (type and size of iron target in relation to the non-ferrous target, target distance, ground conditions, relative depths of the ferrous and non ferrous targets, etc.) so I can't give explicit examples of when and how it should happen. Other drawbacks of using notch vice disc are that using notch with no disc in multitone mode eliminates the first tone because the tone break no longer exists and using Notch precludes the use of iron Volume altogether. Also, using a disc < 5 supposedly makes the ferrous/non-ferrous indicator on the horseshoe unreliable.

 

[Bharpring]

For example if I am using the HF Elliptical Coil and start with the Deus Fast (doesn't matter the starting program) with settings:

Disc: -6.4
expert- 3 Tones
expert-
1st Tone at 120Hz and no tone breaks
2nd Tone at 120Hz and tone break at 77
3rd Tone at 921Hz (to give a good pop to non ferrous)

Iron Vol 3
Reactivity 2
Silencer -1
Audio Resp 6
Frequency 74kHz
No notch
GB set 2 points below actual ground reading

Would a nice copper large cent (should read 98 VID) be brought down to possibly 75 VID by nearby trash (iron/aluminum)? And then with Disc set >5 it would be brought back up to 98 VID? If so then you would expect the sound to be like iron, falling in the 2nd Tone range without the Disc? You could then expect the sound to be a good target falling in the 3rd Tone Range with Disc >5?

I don't have much experience with using Disc at all.

 

[austin_luker]

Can't wait to read through all this great information, thanks everyone for the ideas and opinions. Im learning more about the Deus daily with these new HF coils. I remember having this Disc VS notch conversation a while back, I used to run zero disc and notch 1-15 had very good success but have since changed to zero notch and running Disc from -6.5 up to +10
One thing I noticed while hunting a super heavy iron patch, I had my Disc set to 10 and using pitch mode for tones. Every now and again I would get a tone and VDI of 4-9 so I am wondering how\why I am even getting a tone I disc'ed those VDI's out? I think I should have dug those targets thinking back now as it was probably good targets being drug down by all the heavy iron around. So why would the Deus give me a tone on a VDI I had disc'ed out?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[vferrari]

For example if I am using the HF Elliptical Coil and start with the Deus Fast (doesn't matter the starting program) with settings:

Disc: -6.4
expert- 3 Tones
expert-
1st Tone at 120Hz and no tone breaks
2nd Tone at 120Hz and tone break at 77
3rd Tone at 921Hz (to give a good pop to non ferrous)

Iron Vol 3
Reactivity 2
Silencer -1
Audio Resp 6
Frequency 74kHz
No notch
GB set 2 points below actual ground reading

Would a nice copper large cent (should read 98 VID) be brought down to possibly 75 VID by nearby trash (iron/aluminum)? And then with Disc set >5 it would be brought back up to 98 VID? If so then you would expect the sound to be like iron, falling in the 2nd Tone range without the Disc? You could then expect the sound to be a good target falling in the 3rd Tone Range with Disc >5?

I don't have much experience with using Disc at all.

Not sure aluminum would bring down a copper cent unless they wee in the same hole. Possibly nearby iron, though. Now way to predict what the Target ID would be suppressed to.

In any event, to answer your question, in your scenario, yes it would be pulled down into the second tone range and then possibly with disc on would go back up to the third tone range. You have the first and second tones set at the same tone frequency. Why? If you pull disc up to 5, what would your iron tone sound like (i.e., what would be the setting?) I.e. First tone is 0 - 5 at ?? hz, 2nd would be 5-77 at 120 hz and 77-99 at 921 hz. Note that full negative disc, Iron Volume should have no effect.

 

[vferrari]

Can't wait to read through all this great information, thanks everyone for the ideas and opinions. Im learning more about the Deus daily with these new HF coils. I remember having this Disc VS notch conversation a while back, I used to run zero disc and notch 1-15 had very good success but have since changed to zero notch and running Disc from -6.5 up to +10
One thing I noticed while hunting a super heavy iron patch, I had my Disc set to 10 and using pitch mode for tones. Every now and again I would get a tone and VDI of 4-9 so I am wondering how\why I am even getting a tone I disc'ed those VDI's out? I think I should have dug those targets thinking back now as it was probably good targets being drug down by all the heavy iron around. So why would the Deus give me a tone on a VDI I had disc'ed out?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Assume you are running full tones, so Iron Volume is not in play. Then the only thing I can think of is that you are getting an unstable Target ID and that will result in some tonal bleeding over into the undiscriminated range, since your display can only display one target ID number at a time, it may not be fast enough to display the TID for those higher tones while the audio circuit can put out multiple tones practically at once. The tone mixtures of multiple targets will also sometimes result in multiple tones in the headset when using full tones. That is why notch is an effective means to counter emi from nasty sources such as dog fences which may be splattering tones all up and down the Target ID range. You can notch out a large swath of the Tonal ID range say 0 - 40 or more if really bad and get rid of a lot of the noise such that you can at least run the detector without going nuts knowing that some keepers may indeed get notched out.

Metal detecting: its all about tradeoffs and there very few absolutes.

Hey folks when it comes to target ID suppression due to iron or other nearby metal targets or this bleed over thing, I am just making an educated guess here because I can't even find definitive XP documentation on the following: Exactly how the XP discrimination algorithm works in relation to notch, what happens with negative DISC settings with relation to the first tone break, this whole ver 2/3.2 filter thing associated with the "Hot" and "Deep" programs, and how many discrete tones over the 00-99 Target ID range are associated with Full Tones.

 

[Bharpring]

Would there be any benefit to running Multitone mode with only some Disc >5 and no notch? Or does notching actually enhance the unmasking of non ferrous in combination with Disc (and Iron Vol)?

I tested the Disc in the Multitone mode with my hf elliptical at 74Hz for about 30 mins on a site that I have pounded in Savannah a few hours ago. I didn't use any notch and my audio seemed broken up a lot more than without Disc, but managed to pull out these little prizes.


I must admit, I was impressed. If notching adds to the unmasking of non ferrous, I will start notching as well. However, won't using Disc>5 and notch 0-10 with Iron Vol 3 counteract each other or make the iron vol confused? I would assume you would not hear the iron at VID 0-10 (the feedback)?

 

[Bharpring]

Here a better pic. Not sure what these are yet? Most of the stuff from this site is pre civil war to early 1900s. Adding the Disc to 5.5 in Deep program helped.

 

[vferrari]

Please, please don't take this the wrong way, but at this point I don't even know what you are asking anymore, sorry. I think we are WAY over analyzing some pretty arcane notch and disc settings that are probably only applicable for very unusual situations. Just go out there like you did and experiment with some settings. But just
go with what works at a particular site until its not working anymore and then tweak it until it works again. Don't just tweak for tweaking's sake or you will be continuously resetting the learning curve in your head. That is about the best advice I can give you at this point. Don't lose sight of the basics for any setup:

For custom programs use of Deus Fast or anything except Gold Field, Hot, or Deep as a stating point will give you V4 software signal processing filters. Use HOT or DEEP as the starting program if you want to use ver 3.2 or ver 2 signal processing filters. IMO the difference is barely noticeable but in any event, I see no reason not to use the v4 filters so I always use Deus Fast as my starting program for custom settings.

(1) Judicious application of disc (not too much, not too little). You need Disc of at least 5 for the horseshoe display to work in a stable manner and Disc at 1 or greater to have an iron tone break if you are running multi-tones instead of Full Tones. Full tones provides the most sonic information about the targets under your coil, but multi-tone setups have uses for unmasking or for bringing your attention to certain target conductivity ranges of interest by assigning audible tones that jump out at you.

(2) Use the right frequency for the job, lower frequencies for high conductors and higher frequencies for small items and mid-conductors. For the lf coil, try to use Tx power 2 most of the time.

(3) Keep sensitivity around 90 if you can, you don't gain that much depth by going above 95 but you do lose a lot of depth as you dip into the low 80's. Do not push sensitivity to the point where your machine is chatty. Only rare situations should require Tx = 1 (very hot soil) or Tx = 3 (deep program in mild soil)

(4) Use only as much reactivity as you need to get the job done from a target separation standpoint. Too much and you will lose depth. Use silencer if face with lots of crown caps otherwise disable it by setting it to -1. Be aware that changing the reactivity setting may automatically change the silencer setting so always check that it is where you want it to be after making a reactivity setting change.

(5) Use iron volume as a tracer to let you know when you are around iron even though you have discriminated it out.

(6) Be sure your GB setting is within +/- 3 of the actual GB reading otherwise you will introduce noise (if set too low) or my lose depth (if set too high).

(7) Avoid use of notch except under rare specific situations such when you are using an unmasking program or as a last ditch effort to knock down broad band EMI.

Stick with the basics, don't make drastic changes with your custom programs, and try not to get too cute with the Disc and Notch settings and you will have the most success.

HTH HH

 

[Bharpring]

Yeah, I think my last question was a little confusing, so sorry for that. But after I read through the entire thread from the beginning a few times I think my question was answered about using notching in combination with Disc and Iron Vol in Multitones.

The answer seems to be to use notch very sparingly in Multitones or not at all.

In Full Tones I like to use notch, but I don't use any Disc. Particularly with the LF 9" Coil, using Deus Fast program at Frequency 8kHz, Sens 93, TX 2, Reactivity 2, Silencer -1, Iron Vol 0, Audio Resp 5 and Disc -6.4, I like to notch 0-15 and 96-99 with the ID Norm off.

This was my relic program for a long time. But now I'm wondering if make a few minor changes can make a huge difference such as setting the Disc at 7 and removing the first notch from 0-10?

 

[vferrari]

I think that is a good approach, Wide open (i.e, no disc) with full tones for general searches (though I also do not notch anything and agree disc makes sense in some situations) and some combo of disc and tones for specialized conditions such as trashy areas and even disc in combination with notch for unmasking (i.e., tedyoh's method).

 

[austin_luker]

I have found that whatever settings YOU like and work for you are the settings you SHOULD be using
Every location is different, we all hunt with different brains so it's going to bea different experience for all.

 

[vferrari]

Yeah. That's why I said go back to the basics (i.e., general trends that work for most folks and situations as a starting point) and experiment for oneself as the questions were getting down in the weeds with too many variables to give anything other than a swag for an answer.

 

[Bharpring]

Understood. Thanks for the info. I would never have thought to use Disc or Disc with Notch. In my mind it didn't make sense, but now knowing what they these settings actually mean has already helped me in the field.

 

[vferrari]

Understood. Thanks for the info. I would never have thought to use Disc or Disc with Notch. In my mind it didn't make sense, but now knowing what they these settings actually mean has already helped me in the field.

That's great. Be sure to post back with some more finds and your thoughts on the settings you used. We always learn something new when folks do that.

 

[Bharpring]

Used the 9” Lf coil the last few days with settings Deus Fast. 8Hz Freq, Sens 93, Audio Resp 5, Reactivity 2, Silencer-1, Disc 6.8, 3 Tone (second break at 37) and notch 0-15. Sounded great had good recovery speed and found a few good targets but the ground balance seems to be erratic. My soil is neutral usually around 90 to 88, but with these settings getting much lower readings in the 70s with no extra mineralization showing in the bar. Switching to a program without Disc the ground goes back to normal. Has anyone else experienced this? If so is there anything that can be done to compensate other than tracking?

 

[vferrari]

Good observation. Will have check on that. Are you running tracking or manual gb?