Multi Tones versus Pitch

[secondstar]

Yes, I think that is why they did it, but I think it is overkill, quite frankly. Anyway, I do keep mine around 7 or 8. Even up to 10 is ok as it has no effect on depth. As long as you can hear the iron you should be fine and are unlikely to disc out non-ferrous even at that point. HTH.

Thank you sir, I have an 18 month old so my days of testing machines and settings for hours upon end has come and gone for now... My family is my treasure, but a nice coin or relic every now and then is nice too!

 

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[Jeff H]

Thank you sir, I have an 18 month old so my days of testing machines and settings for hours upon end has come and gone for now... My family is my treasure, but a nice coin or relic every now and then is nice too!

C'mon Secondstar. Just strap your toddler to your back and go enjoy an all day hunt!

I never understood the extra fine tuning settings either. Maybe the illusion of extra control sells more machines? I'd like to believe there is some practical application though.

 

[signal_line]

Maybe soil type. Hot soil need to use less discrimination.

 

[signal_line]

Especially in sand, you want to go minimal discrimination.

 

[vferrari]

With iron volume on Deus, discrimination primarily serves three purposes 1) setting the ferrous/non-ferrous breakpoint, 2) minimizing ferrous down averaging of non-ferrous in thick iron and 3) ensuring proper and stable operation of the ferrous/non-ferrous horseshoe display and depth indicator. Disc doesn't affect detection depth (at settings of 15 or less) and with iron volume, it does not prevent you from hearing both ferrous and non-ferrous targets in the ground. In my experience, soil type or mineralization should really have no bearing on where how to set discrimination on Deus. Some mineralization DOES affect Iron Audio Rejection settings in gold field, though. Discrimination.as implemented on Deus is very diffrent than how it is implemented on other machines.

Disclaimer:

This is based on what I have learned based my real life experiences in various situations and information from respected Deus experts. Putting it out there for consideration. As with any detector advice Your Mileage May Vary and if something works for you don't change what you are doing just because me or some other purported expert says so. But also don't be afraid to try something different either because if it doesbt work out, you can always go back to your favorite settings. FWIW

HH

 

[signal_line]

I guess i should have said if the soil or sand is causing problems, use less discrimination. Obviously they split up the numbers into three segments for a reason. This way you don't have to go down too far. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. LOL

 

[vferrari]

Sorry Signal Line, I guess I'm missing something, I still don't understand how discrimination helps with soil/sand problems. Can you explain? In high mineralization I typically ensure GB is sat and the lower TX power and adjust sensitivity.

 

[secondstar]

When I was a newer DEUS user I found it difficult to determine exactly what would cause my Deus to become a “Chatty Cathy.” To me, everything was a soil problem. For example, I have a little section of my property where there was a lot of activity back in the 40’s. I found a bunch of wheat pennies and some silver. Unfortunately this section of the property has a power line going over it which resulted in issues caused by EMI. I turned sensitivity down, changed frequencies to no avail. I even tried ground balancing because I didn’t know any better... What worked was to also set Disc up to 10 (in addition to reducing sensitivity) and set reactivity at 3. Why? Because this little section of land is also can slaw and iron heaven, or hell depending on your take.

Perhaps signal_line has a similar scenario where there are multiple adverse conditions that are affecting performance? All part of the trials and tribulations of a newer user, I will personally attest to not being able to identify the source of my machine’s “caterwauling” until after many hours of use.

 

[signal_line]

Cricket, cricket, cricket.

 

[secondstar]

Cricket, cricket, cricket.

I’m not familiar with any settings that will make the Deus sound like a cricket ;-) Then again, on some days I’m apparently not familiar with any settings that will make the Deus sound like a coin either! :-) This has been a great discussion!

 

[signal_line]

I ain't sayin' nothing, just the crickets chirping.

Sand/bad soil, heavy trash, same thing. You don't turn the disc up, you turn it down just enough if you want more depth and not dig too much trash. It's elementary my dear Watson.

 

[vferrari]

I ain't sayin' nothing, just the crickets chirping.

Sand/bad soil, heavy trash, same thing. You don't turn the disc up, you turn it down just enough if you want more depth and not dig too much trash. It's elementary my dear Watson.

Not so elementary. Unless you have disc set ridiculously high (i.e., >> than 15) and I do not recommend ever setting it above 10, turning disc down from 10 to 0 or even to the negative range on Deus or ORX doesn't increase depth. That is a common misconception. You do not increase depth by running 0 disc on Deus. Mineralization will decrease detection depth in general but decreasing disc will not improve that situation. You can prove it to yourself using a test garden or even an air test. As a matter of fact, one Deus user who posts regularly here and is very successful even demonstrated in his test garden that cranking Disc even up into the 40's and 50's had no affect on his ability to detect the deepest targets in his test garden. See the video in this thread.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/deus/584973-nice-old-gold-class-ring.html

Now I personally don't recommend setting disc that high. I do think that under certain circumstances you you could actually limit depth, but if you keep disc set no higher than necessary to filter out iron which is basically, no higher than about 10, you should really have no impact on depth at all for detecting non-ferrous targets. Andy Sabisch demonstrates this in his Deus Bootcamp classes and also states in his book that you should never use more disc than is necessary, but does not recommend reducing disc below 6.1 and not higher than 10 which happens to be the disc default setting range for most of the Deus pre-loaded programs except for Gary Blackwell's "Deep" (Disc 5.5) and "Hot" (Disc -6.4) programs [more about that below]. That is no accident. As I explained previously, XP designed the Horseshoe display to work accurately and stable at Disc settings 6.1 and higher. Lower disc settings cause the horseshoe display to be erratic or inaccurate in it's display of ferrous vs. non-ferrous and depth. Other than that and the propensity to for iron to down average nearby non-ferrous targets (which using disc mitigates), there is nothing wrong with using lower discrimination, but it really gains you nothing in depth and like I said, by using Iron Volume you can also still hear the iron even if it falls in the discriminated range. Gary Blackwell likes to run no disc or negative disc and often provides videos showing custom programs like his radar program that run without disc. This is a philosophical difference between how Gary likes to run Deus and how XP Deus designer Alain Loubet approached the disc filter on Deus. I am not sure exactly why Gary likes to run his programs this way, but I think it stems from his experience with other detectors from Whites and Garrett where the iron discrimination circuit even at lower disc settings could really adversely affect detection depth. That is ingrained in an experienced detectorists DNA when they come over to Deus and I think it results in the Disc affecting depth misconception. Certainly, the "knob" is there and allows you to crank down disc and if you think it is giving you more depth, by all means have at lowering it, but it would not be the first thing I would adjust if I were having issues in bad soil.

If you need to block out signals above TID 10, I recommend using notch instead of discrimination to ensure you don't affect non-ferrous detection depth, though in the thread I linked above user bharpring seems to not have any depth issues running very high disc settings instead of notch. I sort of duplicated his results in my test garden too, so you can try experimenting with that.

But like I said in a previous post, if lower disc (or any other setting adjustment) works for you or even if you THINK it works for you despite what the so-called experts say, than go for it.


That's MY story and I'm sticking to it.

HTH

 

[signal_line]

I kinda think this is all a miscommunication on my part. I'll try once more just a little. If you have a bunch of trash and you set the discrimination so it does not give a response you are certainly going to mask some targets at least partially. That means less depth. I hope you can follow that.

Now very similar situation with sand or bad soil, too much disc is going to mask a target, again at least partially, and that means less depth. Of course if you go too low you get ground noise, so there is a fine line there. I don't know, if you can't follow that logic I guess I give up trying to explain it. You'll just have to work a little harder at understanding my gibberish. My English composition skills suck but I ain't wrong on this one.

 

[vferrari]

Your english composition skills are just fine. But, yeah we're talking past each other, unfortunately. You are not hearing what I am saying either on how Deus works (which is different than other detectors).. In pitch or multi tones, you won't inadvertently mask anything with disc because you can still hear the targets that fall in the discriminated range if you have iron volume on. No need to lower disc to unmask them. If it falls in the discriminated range, you can still hear it unless you turn iron volume off. Even if you turn iron volume off, you can still "see" discriminated targets as they will show up on the ferrous side of the horseshoe display. The only place where iron volume doesn't work is if you are using full tones and in that case I agree with you that if you want to hear targets that are falling in the discriminated range you have to lower disc. That is why I never run full tones with disc. But running without any disc filtering also sacrifices the ability to prevent non ferrous down averaging where non ferrous "sounds like" iron because nearby iron is pulling it down into the ferrous range and causes the horseshoe display to become unreliable, so I rarely run full tones anymore.

I know I probably haven't convinced you and thats ok but thought I would give it another shot at explaining this. It is always hard to get this point across when I am assisting Andy Sabisch in the Deus Bootcamp sessions and I think a lot of folks just walk away not believing what we are saying here. It's not a big deal, just thought I would give another shot at explaining it.

Frankly, it is not likely going to make or break a detecting session. Running with lower disc than recommended is probably a lot better tha running with disc too high.

No harm, no foul.

HH

 

[secondstar]

I was running full tones with zero discrimination until I did some more testing. I ended up going back to a simple 3 tones setup with disc set at 7.5 and have done really well. XP seems to have designed the machine with the intention that some disc be used. The ORX for example has disc set at 7 for both coin programs. Thank you for all of the info vferrari.

 

[vferrari]

XP seems to have designed the machine with the intention that some disc be used. The ORX for example has disc set at 7 for both coin programs.

Bingo!

I know now that signal line was not advocating running without any disc, but lowering disc on Deus/Orx is really not really necessary either to "unmask" targets or "increase depth" if iron volume is enabled.

Anyway - I should stop now as I think I have beaten this horse to death and as I review the posts am probably coming across as arrogant, argumentative or annoying. I am just trying to put info out there to demystify the Deus, but it is not necessarily straight forward because it is a complex machine with a lot of room to customize. I've had the machine for nearly 5 years now and am still learning new things about it, typically from other users of Deus/Orx and often from new users who do their own experiments and do not have any preconceptions on what is possible or impossible to do with it. My apologies, folks, especially to Signal Line if any offense is taken. It is a lot easier to demonstrate these concepts in front of people with a Deus in our hands than putting it in words. Anyway - happy hunting and ignore my rambling.

 

[secondstar]

Bingo!

I know now that signal line was not advocating running without any disc, but lowering disc on Deus/Orx is really not really necessary either to "unmask" targets or "increase depth" if iron volume is enabled.

Anyway - I should stop now as I think I have beaten this horse to death and as I review the posts am probably coming across as arrogant, argumentative or annoying. I am just trying to put info out there to demystify the Deus, but it is not necessarily straight forward because it is a complex machine with a lot of room to customize. I've had the machine for nearly 5 years now and am still learning new things about it, typically from other users of Deus/Orx and often from new users who do their own experiments and do not have any preconceptions on what is possible or impossible to do with it. My apologies, folks, especially to Signal Line if any offense is taken. It is a lot easier to demonstrate these concepts in front of people with a Deus in our hands than putting it in words. Anyway - happy hunting and ignore my rambling.

I for one have learned a lot from you and others on this forum. It takes a lot to fully understand this machine and I think that this has been a productive conversation. We're all learning together! I hope that everyone gets out this Labor Day weekend, may our finds be plentiful, and valuable! :-)

Mike

 

[signal_line]

No problem.

this thread started with the question of why the Disc has the numbers split up into three segments. My point is this fine tuning is more for soil/ground noise than for targets. Sure you can run no Disc and go by audio, but in sand or some bad ground the ground noise is a real issue and that's why they split hairs to get it as good as you can and this will give better depth when you do. Otherwise the ground noise will drown out a good target, and too much Disc will decrease depth due to (partial) masking by the bad soil. Does that make any more sense or am i just banging my head against the wall?

I think this thread got out of hand when I said minimal discrimination. I mean use as little as possible but not too little. That's the line between ground noise and partial (this reduces depth) target masking.
Got this from Clive Clynick but I expanded on it.

 

[vferrari]

Ok. Everything you are saying I would agree with you if we were talking about Equinox but not necessarily about Deus. I use disc in the Equinox a lot differently than the way I use disc on the Deus and it is more in line with the way you are describing it here. I know Clive is a Minelab expert and has written several books including 2 about Equinox, but I didn't know he used a Deus. Thanks for the info.

I looked back through the thread and I don't recall the three segment thing you are talking about regarding disc. That IS the case with how the Ground Balance setting is displayed, though on the X-Y screen and in the ground balance menu.

I guess I am getting something mixed up, sorry.

 

[signal_line]

Oops! Yes, got confused. Should be 10 segments for each Disc number.

Don't think Clive wrote any books on the Deus, but he has done some testing and wrote a review. He has been featured in some Deus ads.

No, this was not for the Nox, although I never read his books on that one.