What is dowsing?

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

I'm a skeptic.
We have far more advanced electronics available to us than our metal detecting fathers...the power of discrimination of our equipment is far more developed, we have exponentially greater access to historical information at the click of a mouse than we did when I first began metal detecting in the 1970s. I can write this post on one screen on my computer while I research potential historical sites on the other. Yet some of us still think that by calling on a medieval belief in a supernatural force we can somehow tap into is still necessary to be successful at the art of treasure hunting.

Here's a link to a page that discusses the pseudo-science of dowsing. From that page you can download a two volume paper that describes a scientific- scientific double-blind study in Germany that tested the effecasy of dowsing for both water and coins. I won't tell you the outcome...you can see for yourself.

Library, The Matter of Dowsing


But I will say to the OP, radbro, who apparently is looking into dowsing for the first time, please consider the opportunity cost of going into a field of treasure hunting that depends on arcane, archaic hearsay and superstition. The hours you spend trying to make sense out of divining rods or crystal pendulums or forked sticks are hours you are not spending on your metal detector or researching potential sites using science based tools; tools developed with sound, repeatable, proven scientific theory.

I'd hate to see someone who could, say, learn to be a good pharmacist get side tracked into alchemy. I may, like Fox Mulder, "Want to believe", but I will go where the double-blind science takes me...not my desires.

Best,
Bruce

 

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[aarthrj3811]

But I will say to the OP, radbro, who apparently is looking into dowsing for the first time, please consider the opportunity cost of going into a field of treasure hunting that depends on arcane, archaic hearsay and superstition. The hours you spend trying to make sense out of divining rods or crystal pendulums or forked sticks are hours you are not spending on your metal detector or researching potential sites using science based tools; tools developed with sound, repeatable, proven scientific theory.

Gee guy......Make a set of rods from free coat hangers..,.Spend some time reading and studying....do some practicing until you know what the rods are telling you...Then go out and enjoy finding what you want ...Art
Dowsing dates back 8000 years...Just a few years more than those beep beep machines

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

Gee guy......Make a set of rods from free coat hangers..,.Spend some time reading and studying....do some practicing until you know what the rods are telling you...Then go out and enjoy finding what you want ...Art

Art, I will make you a deal. I will do that. I will make a set and with an open mind (because I said I'm a skeptic and not a disbeliever) I will make a set this weekend and give it a try. I have coat hangers and brass tubing. I'll do that IF you are willing to read the study I cited above and come back and explain to us what was deficient in that study.

And if I believe that those rods are doing anything besides swinging randomly due to my own Idiomotor Effect:



I certainly will come back and report out.

Deal?

Meanwhile, one of the above respondents, two bear, told me that he is, seriously, never wrong. So two bear, if you look at this, what is this person doing that you wouldn't do?

 

[aarthrj3811]

I have saw all of Randi’s infomercials..We have discussed them many times...this thread will give you a few clues as to it is done,, http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/dowsing/10838-want-try-dowsing.html

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

Art, your thread is an awesome piece of work and would make a great book on Dowsing for Beginners. But it is predicated on the assumption that the reader already believes. It does nothing to try to convince a skeptic like me.
And there is nothing that addresses the fact that the study I cited above clearly showed that dowsing had no more effect than random chance.

And I am confused with your term "Infomercials" with Randi's videos. He wasn't selling anything. The two videos I linked to consisted of one simply pointing out how the poor dowser on Randi's show couldn't find the target until the (statistically insignificant) third try. And the other one explained (with pretty clear video evidence) that the dowser was moving his arms and shoulders while he had silly line levels on his rods and claiming he was not moving his arms and shoulders.

Look. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that there is a supernatural system of some sort that a person can become part of that allows them to locate running water and gold using a couple pieces of metal rod and practice is certainly extraordinary. Yet the proof is absent. On the contrary, there is lots of scientific, tested evidence that a dowser, on the whole, has no better chance of finding their target than random chance.

I'm glad you did not take me up on my deal. I am looking forward to a thawed weekend where I can get out with my AT Gold for the first time, instead of making witching rods.

I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this. As long as what you believe in doesn't kill anyone like the dowser James McCormick did.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/844-randi-responds-to-the-arrest-of-james-mccormick.html


I'll leave you to your dowsing with my best wishes.

Bruce

 

[aarthrj3811]

Thank You

 

[two bear]

Hey Craig, why so negative? Sounds like you don't know a thing about dowsing so why post anything at all. Maybe it's the inbreeding.

 

[two bear]

Hey, I honestly have never seen anyone use one rod. It seems he is trying to tap into some psychic ability. I don't claim that there are psychic powers used when I dowse, I just let the rods tell me what I want to know and as Art says, practice will teach what you want to know. When I dowse a homesite, I can be in the woods and there can be no sign of a homesite or there can just be a stack or rocks where the fireplace was. I can start walking over the area and find the walls, where they end and draw out the site in the woods. The energy is there, I just pick up on it with the rods. As for the guy in the video, one can see his elbow move and he seems to control the rods movement. My rods are in straws where I hold the handle and I cant manipulate the rods even if I wanted to. Hey, make a simple pair of dowsing rods out of a wire coat hanger and go in your yard and find your cable tv line, your water line. Start in the grass and walk toward your driveway. The rods will close at the edge of the driveway and stay crossed until you reach the other side. When I said I was never wrong, I meant that I'm not wrong when I arrive at an answer about a gravesite and the sex of the person in it. I don't know enough about dowsing to try to figure out how to solve situations like the one in the video. I think the results of his quest should have embarrassed him enough to STOP DOWSING. I'm no psychic. I don't understand dowsing, but it works.

 

[aarthrj3811]

A simple frame I made to prove the rods move by their self...

 

[widomanmx]

.. dowsing is to capture and interpret energy

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/dowsing/8292-read-me-first.html
This forum is limited to the discussion of simple, inexpensive (or FREE!) devices and techniques.

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

A simple frame I made to prove the rods move by their self...
View attachment 914485

Art, this is intriguing. I'd love for you to elaborate on how you used this frame to prove the rods move by themselves. I do respect the fact that you would go through this kind of experiment to see if there was an effect. Were you doing it to decide whether you should put any stock in dowsing? Do you have a video? Can we eliminate wind? Were you able to correlate their movement with any real outcome?
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[aarthrj3811]

Simple....Make the frame...Put a set of rods in.....Try to make the rods close by moving your hands...Now step on a coin...Now you have proved that the rods could not have moved by moving your hand..Art

“For those who don’t believe in Dowsing, no amount of evidence is enough. And for those who can Dowse, no evidence is necessary.”

 

[diggerdoodah]

BabyneedsanewpairOshoes,

I have 2 questions for you. First understand I am not wanting to start a debate about this questions. Theses questions are just to establish a base line of scientific proof.

1st Do you believe in any god of any religion exists ?

2nd If you answered yes to above question please scientifically prove in double blind test the god of your choice exist.

There are lots of things in the world that have not been able to be scientifically proved in any controlled test that can be repeated.

Dowsing is one of those such things just like gods , ufos, bigfoot ect.

I respect your opinion about dowsing and beliefs .
And I understand you not wanting to be apart of anything that brings harm to anyone , no one should want that.

You being from Springfield ( don't know how long you have lived there) but I am sure you could find some old timer there that has / possible still does dowse for water you could talk to.

Have you ever tried to dowse ?
If you have 2 wire coat hangers or a sting and a washer you can dowse .
Doesn't have to cost a lot. Yes there are people selling expensive dowsing items all over and to each there own if the wanna spend there money for them . But just because there is no paper from the scientific community saying yes we have done several double blind test dowsing doesn't work.
Look though history how many scientist where considered crazy be for their theories could be proved and repeated.

Again I respect your skepticism but refer to my 2 questions above before you condemn people that believe and practice dowsing . After all since neither of my above questions can be proved then billion of people must all be crazy if they follow a religion.

 

[maxpower]

i used to think dowsing was just a bunch of hooey! i remember as a kid grabbing the old forked stick yup nothing happens! later on i monky'ed around with the ole bent coat hanger rods and the darn things seemed to have a reaction, did several tests and sure got a reaction to the presence of water, later on i was able to locate the "D" box of my septic system, i do not know how it works? i'm no expert! but there surely is something to it, now as for map dowsing i can't say but i will keep an open mind and not close it like i did in my earlier years! i will attempt in the spring to locate water for a point well.

 

[aarthrj3811]

. Yet some of us still think that by calling on a medieval belief in a supernatural force we can somehow tap into is still necessary to be successful at the art of treasure hunting.

Here's a link to a page that discusses the pseudo-science of dowsing

But I will say to the OP, radbro, who apparently is looking into dowsing for the first time, please consider the opportunity cost of going into a field of treasure hunting that depends on arcane, archaic hearsay and superstition.

Thank you for telling us your believes...How come you keep trying to transfer your believe to US?..Art

"The door to Knowledge & Understanding, is never open to a closed, or prejudiced mind”

 

[whammy]

I have tried and can't do it. However, I had two aunts who were missionaries in India in the early 1900s, and part of their services was dowsing for water in the villages. Also here in central N.Y. most of the wells on farms are dowsed. My aunts found 3 wells on the family farm. The one for the dairy barn and the one for the farm house were dowsed and they told my grandfather that they would never run out of water, and they haven't. The third well was for the pasture. I went with a girl back in my teens and she could dowse. I tried and nothing, so she put one finger on the back of each of my hands, and we started walking. A few minutes later the willow branch started bending, and it ripped the skin on my hands as I tried to keep it from bending. As a closer, my father was a science teacher, and if you couldn't prove it with science, it wasn't true. After showing him my hands and telling him what happened, I believe he said something about I must have fallen down.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Thank you whammy....One of my sons can get no reaction from the rods....some people just can not do it..Art

 

[BabyNeedsANewPairO'Shoes]

Dear diggerdoodah and Art:

I appreciate the opportunity you extend to me with your questions and I believe they deserve respectful answers.
First, let me say, Art, your experimental framework to eliminate hand variation is impressive and I am intrigued. There appears to be no way to make rods falsely cross in this apparatus. Has anyone done this? I’d love to see a video. Or maybe I need to make one

And to your question: “How come you keep trying to transfer your believe to US?” my answer would be that I think that dowsing or anything else that is so unrepeatable, so subject to the whims of interpretation, and so alluring as a possible advantage in treasure hunting might be dangerous. Not in any religious or occult sense; it’s dangerous in the way that it can swallow up a person’s time and resources in chasing something that has no proven advantage. Hence the opportunity cost of not spending time with your actual research and metal detector or your family for that matter.

Many, many good things in our modern life are the result of scientifically proven principles that are repeatable and undeniable under controlled conditions. From medicine and space travel to the very metal detector you list in your bio on TN. But dowsing is unrepeatable (as shown in the fact that when someone on TN posts a map I've seen multiple map dowsers respond with completely different conclusions). There has not been a single scientific study that proves the repeatability and efficacy of dowsing, and there have been studies that show it’s no better than random chance. Yet the believers continue to believe.

So it’s not that I want to transfer my beliefs to you, it’s just that I want to challenge your beliefs. In a sense, you should appreciate having a gadfly like me because my challenges will push you outside of your comfort zone and require you to defend what you believe. Believers might be circling the wagons, but you’ll have to ask yourselves “why?”

I would be glad to accept the statement from someone in a previous post who said that he can find gold and is “seriously” never wrong, when he can do so from a mansion he bought from his findings and proves his talent in a fair test. Hasn't happened, won’t happen.

Diggerdoodah, you ask:

“1st Do you believe in any god of any religion exists ?”

No I do not believe in a god. I would have a problem picking the right one. There have been hundreds of gods worshiped by humans since the beginning of time. Each worshiper believed their god was the right one at that time. If you believe in one god you might call someone like me who believes in none an atheist. If you believe in one god, then you do not believe in any of the others that have been worshiped by man in the last 6000 years, correct? Then do you know that we’re really very close to believing the same thing? We’re both atheists. I just go one god farther than you.

“Have you ever tried to dowse ?”

Yes. I got a book on crystals years ago and how to use them to divine answers to questions. That was before I realized that the only rational philosophy of life was to seek reality in what can be shown to be true.
My experimentation with crystal pendulums left me disappointed at the time. It didn't work. I also tried remote viewing for a while. Nothing.

“Again I respect your skepticism but refer to my 2 questions above before you condemn people that believe and practice dowsing . After all since neither of my above questions can be proved then billion of people must all be crazy if they follow a religion.”

Thank you for that respect. I am a skeptic on all things supernatural. I do not condemn people who practice dowsing, but I will challenge them. If they have a method of discerning truth that is viable and repeatable then let’s move it to the realm of science, prove it and spread it for the good of all mankind. Why can't we do that? But the dowsing effect seems to somehow turn off when a skeptic investigates it, and there are other rational explanations that involve the dowser’s own perceptions and interpretations, so a rational person should side with Occam’s Razor and decide that it’s really not effective.

And no, I don’t think religious people are crazy. I used to be one and I was not crazy. I was just at a place in my life where I was not ready to question things I was told. I finally realized through a series of events that everything I was “supposed” to believe came from another person no smarter than me (preacher) or a book no one knew the author to (Bible). So I finally decided to honestly inspect those beliefs. I could find no rational reason to support them.

Best wishes,
Bruce

 

[aarthrj3811]

First, let me say, Art, your experimental framework to eliminate hand variation is impressive and I am intrigued. There appears to be no way to make rods falsely cross in this apparatus. Has anyone done this? I’d love to see a video. Or maybe I need to make one

Yes you should..You may learn something

And to your question: “How come you keep trying to transfer your believe to US?” my answer would be that I think that dowsing or anything else that is so unrepeatable, so subject to the whims of interpretation, and so alluring as a possible advantage in treasure hunting might be dangerous. Not in any religious or occult sense; it’s dangerous in the way that it can swallow up a person’s time and resources in chasing something that has no proven advantage. Hence the opportunity cost of not spending time with your actual research and metal detector or your family for that matter.

More excuses

Many, many good things in our modern life are the result of scientifically proven principles that are repeatable and undeniable under controlled conditions. From medicine and space travel to the very metal detector you list in your bio on TN. But dowsing is unrepeatable (as shown in the fact that when someone on TN posts a map I've seen multiple map dowsers respond with completely different conclusions). There has not been a single scientific study that proves the repeatability and efficacy of dowsing, and there have been studies that show it’s no better than random chance. Yet the believers continue to believe.
Could it be they work...Just because you believe they don’t makes no difference to us....I just keep on finding gold with them
So it’s not that I want to transfer my beliefs to you, it’s just that I want to challenge your beliefs. In a sense, you should appreciate having a gadfly like me because my challenges will push you outside of your comfort zone and require you to defend what you believe. Believers might be circling the wagons, but you’ll have to ask yourselves “why?”
I have no believes...I just know they work
I would be glad to accept the statement from someone in a previous post who said that he can find gold and is “seriously” never wrong, when he can do so from a mansion he bought from his findings and proves his talent in a fair test. Hasn't happened, won’t happen.

You may wait a long time

Yes. I got a book on crystals years ago and how to use them to divine answers to questions. That was before I realized that the only rational philosophy of life was to seek reality in what can be shown to be true.
My experimentation with crystal pendulums left me disappointed at the time. It didn't work. I also tried remote viewing for a while. Nothing.

So you now claim you tried..

Thank you for that respect. I am a skeptic on all things supernatural. I do not condemn people who practice dowsing, but I will challenge them. If they have a method of discerning truth that is viable and repeatable then let’s move it to the realm of science, prove it and spread it for the good of all mankind. Why can't we do that? But the dowsing effect seems to somehow turn off when a skeptic investigates it, and there are other rational explanations that involve the dowser’s own perceptions and interpretations, so a rational person should side with Occam’s Razor and decide that it’s really not effective.

I have saw what skeptics do at demonstration....When an honest Double blind study comes along someone may want to do it....Art