How Come Dowsers are Millionaires?

[Tom_in_CA]

I've also seen fluorescent lights glow with only one wire in the ground. Now, to anyone who has never seen this? They would say it's nonsense. If you take a fluorescent tube light under or around power lines you can make it glow from a good distance away. Not bright glow, but it will glow.

I know it's completely different, but I think there is something pulling on the rods. Sometimes, it's not like they just cross, it actually feels like a magnetic pull, is the only way I know how to describe it. I would like to know the science behind it. If any. It is strange how it works!

Nitric, your input is good. In several posts of yours, it sounds like you're attributing the ability to some scientific reason. Although it sounds like you admit that you don't completely understand it. Right ?

Then what do you say to the dowsers who do indeed attribute it to some sort of "mind" power-type of thing ? I mean, like, I've even seen and heard some dowsers attributing a lack-of-success to someone's "bad vibes" (ie.: a skeptic watching them). To me such "thought-transference" and "mind" type explanations, are bordering on the "spooks" type explanation. I suppose then that you would distance yourself from such explanations ?

 

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[Gold Maven]

I'm on the fence on this one.

There are constant magnetic fields around us at all times, a compass picks up on this, migrating birds are said to use it.

Any wire with current produces a magnetic field, any metal pipe can disrupt the natural fields.

I built bridges for 30 years, and have seen L rods used to help locate buried utilities. Nowadays if they can hook a transmitter on to the ends, buried wires and pipes are easily found.

I don't claim to understand it, but I have seen it work.

Now, map dowsing, and Long Range Locators are nothing but wish full thinking at best, at worst they can be used to empty a believers pockets, instead of filling them.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

TH'r, I don't mean this an attack. I hope I'm just answering your question(s) and partaking in a legit. discussion. Ok :



So that nay-sayers in discussions/debates such as this cease their skepticism, and the matter can be put-to-rest.



Sure. No doubt. But the key question is: Was there other reasons this feat could have been done? Ie.: other reasons (subtle subconscious visual clues, etc...)



Which is all-the-more reason why I am perpetually befuddled, if it's that accurate and repeatable.... then .... certainly someone could stop the discussion once for all ?

No, it isn't our job to convince or prove anything to anyone who doubt's, nor is it our job to put anything to rest. I'm speaking from over 25 years experience of dousing utility cables...

As far as your "subtle subconscious visual clues" comment that is more laughable than dousing itself....

Have you ever seen utilities after being buried in the ground 5, 10, 15 years or longer in the ground?

Just what visual clues do you think remains visible after that many years of mother nature raining, snowing, wind depositing sand and leaves and weeds dying and decomposing? We are not talking in subdivisions, we are talking rural landscapes and we are not talking "here its somewhere in this area," it was me saying ," cable or water line is right here" then me or contractor pot holing the cable/water line and physically exposing it and touching it..

 

[woof!]

Woof, to be the devil's advocate here: What do you say this this defense line, to what you're saying:

"The reason why dowsers either fail tests, or refuse to partake of them in the first place, is : That it can only be done when in subconscious mode. The minute the dowser is being "tested", then he becomes "conscious". Therefore the art no longer works, at that time. Sort of like "stage fright" I guess? Or a world-reknowned artist who paints quite well when not under pressure. But the moment you put a crowd around him, and put him on a timer, put demands on him, etc... then his painting skills wain .

How do you respond to this rationale, when they give this as their reason ?

Assuming that it's fully blinded dowsing we're talking about here: dowsers don't usually don't usually give the "stage fright" reason. Most often it's a bunch of outright alibis, but the alibis still tell the truth of the matter: they know they can't do it.


Unblinded dowsing, I'd expect that to be a common and ordinary ability needing no spooky explanations, although most dowsers reject even that (they usually demand spooky explanations). But still, ideomotor response is mostly at the subconscious level, if it's at the conscious level it's not ideomotor response and no dowsing rods are needed.

I'm not aware of anyone ever having offered a cash prize to see a demo of unblinded dowsing. What would be the point?

Since there's not very much mysterious about unblinded dowsing, the only kind I find interesting is the blinded kind. Full blinding is basically nonexistent under practical dowsing conditions but pretty good blinding is often present and results seemingly beyond reasonable expectation are often credibly reported under such conditions. It seems to work best on buried utilities, the locating of which using scientifically designed apparatus happens to be my business. The explanations typically given by dowsers that a magnetic or electric field produced by the utility itself produces a force on the dowsing rod causing it to swing has no scientific basis. What does have a scientific basis is the physical construction of the dowsing rod itself: it's designed to amplify and indicate ideomotor response and if it doesn't do that you can't dowse with it.

In principle, you could argue that utility dowsers are picking up subconsciously on clues gained from field experience and what they know through "developed instinct" that isn't making its way into consciousness is coming out through the hands instead. However I don't regard that as an adequate explanation for two reasons:

1. I've done it best doing it blindfolded.

2. Credible anecdotal reports from people who do field locating for a living suggest ground truthed success 'way beyond what it seems should be possible from the "ordinary explanation".

So, how does it work? I don't know. I do however know how it doesn't work, because I get paid to do real science of the kind that debunks the pseudoscience. To people who know nothing of high school physics, however, it's all nifty magic and talk about real science just spoils the fun.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Any mocking of members in forums will end in timeouts... All members will be treated with respect..

 

[aarthrj3811]

It is good to hear from so many people who use the rods for work and around the house. Yes it is a great tool for all uses..Art

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... Just what visual clues do you think remains visible after that many years of mother nature raining, snowing, wind depositing sand and leaves and weeds dying and decomposing?.....

Understood. I don't doubt you have done this feat, and that you had no way to guess from visual clues. All I can say then is, I hope that someone, someday, who is as good as you, can show those who have tried to test it in the past. Because apparently those that were tested, were not as skilled as you. And once that day comes, I will be the first to go out and buy one (if it can be used for silver and gold that is )

As far as the tests link that digger has put forth, I'm waiting for him to agree to our agreement/wager. Then I will fully study it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I've been on the phone and no one can explain a thing to me. I hear the same thing, it's electrical or magnetic. Other than that no one knows. I'd like to see proof either way! or even links to real studies. Neutral studies, if there is such a thing.

I too would like to know if someone can explain it scientifically. I mean, can you blame the skeptics for having doubts, when they see some proponents try to explain it as "mind power" or some other type of supernatural or metaphysical explanation? So if the day came when either

a) a double blind test of the skill TH'r has is tested and documented, and/or

b) that someone can explain why a rod would turn in the first place

Then that's the day I jump on board

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I too would like to know if someone can explain it scientifically. I mean, can you blame the skeptics for having doubts, when they see some proponents try to explain it as "mind power" or some other type of supernatural or metaphysical explanation? So if the day came when either

a) a double blind test of the skill TH'r has is tested and documented, and/or

b) that someone can explain why a rod would turn in the first place

Then that's the day I jump on board

And again, why do we need to prove anything, we know it works.

You don't believe because science can't prove or disprove. Lots of things science can't explain....

 

[Red_desert]

Another one! I argued with people for years over! We walked up on greenish glowing logs in the woods at night. We saw them from a distance and had to find out what was glowing, so we walked over to them..Everyone told me I was insane, after I explained what we saw.

We were in the middle of no where in southern ohio. No one could explain it or believe it.Even the park ranger laughed at us when we asked about it. I think he probably made a comment about us and drugs or something, the usual, "I've been a ranger here for 200 years and I've never seen anything like that", But of course we were the idiots, we were in no way as "educated" in the outdoors as he was, and he says it can't be true.... We knew what we saw!

Years later I finally ran into one guy out of a hundred that said,"oh ya! it's caused by a mixture of rotting wood and humidity, temperature, that causes that." It might have been a bacteria or fungus..After we were able to look into it in that direction, we found the answer. Right now I don't remember all the details to why.lol

They only glowed that night, and the rest of the time we were there, they never glowed again. It was strange!

added.....Just looked it up. I think it's called FoxFire or fairyfire. I know it's off topic. lol It's cool if you ever get a chance to see it. If that isn't what it was, it was similar. I know conditions have to be just right for it to happen.

Growing up here in N Indiana, we camped out one night in the woods. Around us were some of those rotting moist logs that glowed in the dark. I packed up some, but after getting the sample home, it never glowed again. I think there is a luminous bacteria and/or fungus, seems I'd read something about it discovered once in one of the Egyptian tombs. Thing is, people thought we were crazy too!

 

[Red_desert]

Check this out.


PASSENGERS on board cruise liners are sometimes startled by an eerie phosphorescent glow emitted by seawater flush lavatories. The explanation lies in luminous bacteria, which require oxygen for their light-generating reactions. Luminescent bacteria are present in all marine environments and develop abundantly on the surface of decaying fish.

Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Luminous Glowing Bacteria - Homemade!! - Powered by XMB 1.9.11

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://twm.co.nz/dowsing_jse_com.html
Water Diviner - Article 3
How does a water dowser work
Water Diviner - Article 3

 

[aarthrj3811]

This is a long read
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/dowsing/444118-dowsing-facts.html

 

[Gold Maven]

http://twm.co.nz/dowsing_jse_com.html
Water Diviner - Article 3
How does a water dowser work
Water Diviner - Article 3

interesting site.......only 16,000 rupees to map dowse for water.

They had a perfect situation to compare water dowsing to random drill sites when they drilled hundreds of water wells, but they didn't.

They dowsed them all with high success, and then just estimated a low success with out dowsing, saying it was "typical" in that area. Doesn't really prove anything, unfortunately.

 

[aarthrj3811]

The outcome was striking. An overall success rate of 96% (by dowsers) was achieved in 691 drillings in Sri Lanka. Based on geological experience in that area, a success rate of 30-50% would be expected from conventional techniques alone.

They dowsed them all with high success, and then just estimated a low success with out dowsing, saying it was "typical" in that area. Doesn't really prove anything, unfortunately.

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Dace_amazing3.htm
The Amaz!ng 3 Meeting - Las Vegas, January 13-16, 2005
by Ted Dace
James Randi, Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer in Las Vegas. Dawkins now accepts the "perinormal" and worries that Randi may have to pay up his million dollar prize.
Two days later, Richard Dawkins said he was worried that Randi would eventually have to pay up. Dr. Dawkins had just delivered a truly fine lecture - the high point of the conference, in fact - and Randi had joined the famed author onstage for a public chat. “About the million dollar prize, I would be worried if I were you because of the fact that we have perinormal possibilities.” Dawkins had just introduced this neologism during his talk. An alleged phenomenon is perinormal (from the Greek “peri,” in the vicinity of) if it seems impossible but which, in contrast to the “paranormal,” turns out to be a 100% natural, skeptic-approved phenomenon. Electromagnetic fields, for instance, were once perinormal but eventually came to be recognized as real. The question, then, is which phenomena currently dismissed by skeptics as paranormal are actually perinormal. “I mean, what if somebody-what if there really is a perinormal phenomenon which is then embraced within science and will become normal, but at present is classified conventionally as paranormal?”

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...... You don't believe because science can't prove or disprove. Lots of things science can't explain....

I think we're mixing topics here. Science can indeed come along and "prove" that dowsing can work. It's called double-blind testing.

Now as to whether science can then explain the HOW of how-it works, that's another topic. What you've done is resorted to the "un-discovered" science defense. I don't doubt there are things that science didn't used to understand, yet now does. And likewise things that are current un-explained phenomenoms, that will someday be explained by science perhaps.

The trouble is though, is that allows ANYTHING, no MATTER how silly, could be explained/defended in the same way. Because the minute someone says "that's unscientific", I can merely say "it's undiscovered science". Does that mean that what I'm proposing is therefore legitimate ? No, of course not. It can be totally silly (like my peanut butter frisbee treasure-finder idea).

Hence what science can indeed prove dowsing. At least for whether it works or not. And for that .... I'm still waiting.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Then topic is How Come Dowsers ARENT Millionaires? How would anyone know this?...Art

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Art, I'm looking over your recent posts, and I see several links. Before I click and read each one, can I please ask you ahead of time: Does any of them contain double blind test results, which show the dowsing to work ? And not just to "cite" that such a thing happened, but actually to detail the methods and precautions used for the staging/performing of the tests ? If so, I will read, provided you accept the gentlemen's wager that I offered digger (which you'll notice he has yet to answer that challenge). That wager is that :

If I show you that the test could have been skewed by other factors, and hence was not truly double-blind, are you willing to accept that your links don't offer proof to the discussion ? And better yet: are you willing to publically say that there is no proof (unless you can find some to share with us) that dowsing has been proved ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Then topic is How Come Dowsers ARENT Millionaires? How would anyone know this?...Art

Do you have any examples of someone who became rich off dowsing ? And for purposes of this question, it would need to be an example which can be shown to have no other explanation OTHER than the dowsing. So for example: Someone who "used a detector to pinpoint" (after waving the thing at likely looking ruins) would not count. Since, of course, that can be attributed to other things.