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Thread: Talk, talk, enough talk already.

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  1. #31

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarthrj3811 View Post
    ...There you go Tom...
    You mean lesjcbs nut, bolts, & wires anecdotal find ? Well why stop there ? I can show you picture, posts, and videos, of fellows posing next to jars of coins, and whopper nuggets that they found. And .... there certainly can't be any other explanations for the "finds", right ?

    Quote Originally Posted by aarthrj3811 View Post
    ... I would like to see 100 dowsers do a Double Blind test. Maybe all you skeptic's could get together and be the control group...
    But remember, it won't work. The "negative vibes" will skew the results. Or some devious trick would be done (magnets in pockets of nearby skeptic testers, etc....). Or there's not *really* any prize money, d/t it would be unfairly circumvented and not really awarded, etc.... Right ?
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  2. #32
    us
    Jul 2011
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    If dowsers, both past and present had never found any thing when dowsing, the science would be correct to claim dowsing does not work, but that is not what happened. Dowsers find things all the time using the dowsing technique, even children who know nothing about science.
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  3. #33

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    If dowsers, both past and present had never found any thing when dowsing...
    Who is claiming that ? I have said over and over that ... yes .... anecdotal stories of finds do abound. There is no shortage of those "finds" . The key word though is: "Anecdotal"

    Remember: in the past, people sincerely believed they could control the weather by certain means. And ... historically ... they used the means quite frequently. So how can we say the means didn't work, if they used it as much as they did ?
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  4. #34
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
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    Well Tom. I can check a one mile by three miles in the time it takes me to walk one mile. If it is on a road that runs north-south or east- west can search it very fast from my can. How many months or years would it take you and you would not be sure if you checked it all or if there may be a pile of gold that as to deep for your tool...Art

  5. #35
    us
    Jul 2011
    Pocket dowsing L- Rods shown above. Whites Beach Comber, Bounty Hunter Sharp Shooter II, Whites TM 808, Canon 350D EOS Digital Rebel XT DSLR Camera.
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    Anecdotal evidence is evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but MAY BE considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method.

    Post hoc fallacy : Suppose we notice that an event of kind A is followed IN TIME by an event of kind B, and then hastily leap to the conclusion that A caused B. If so, our reasoning contains the Post Hoc Fallacy. Correlations are often good evidence of causal connection, so the fallacy occurs only when the leap to the causal conclusion is done "hastily." The Latin term for the fallacy is Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc ("After this, therefore because of this"). It is a kind of False Cause Fallacy. Throwing virgins into volcanoes to control the weather is post hoc.
    Last edited by lesjcbs; Dec 30, 2018 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Kk
    Tom_in_CA likes this.
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  6. #36

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarthrj3811 View Post
    .... How many months or years would it take you .....
    Yes. I've seen your claims here before. And no one in their right mind would argue with the time-savings it presents. Ie.: who would argue with a "better mousetrap" and "better method" to cover large areas ?

    It's just a shame it can't be demonstrated in double -blind tests

    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    Anecdotal evidence is evidence collected in a .....
    Lesjcbs: Very good definitions. I agree wholeheartedly . I guess we just disagree on where dowsing fits into that picture & definitions. Ie.: whether the testimonies and finds shown by the dowsers, falls into those categories, or doesn't.

    Said in a non-badgering friendly way.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  7. #37
    us
    Jul 2011
    Pocket dowsing L- Rods shown above. Whites Beach Comber, Bounty Hunter Sharp Shooter II, Whites TM 808, Canon 350D EOS Digital Rebel XT DSLR Camera.
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    A young mother senses / feels something is wrong at home that is miles away. Upon arriving back home, she and her new husband find the house on fire and their baby and baby sitter are safe. This scenario, like dowsing and other things cannot be duplicated in double blinded tests. Perhaps our Creator meant it to be that way.
    Last edited by lesjcbs; Dec 30, 2018 at 07:29 PM.
    elh likes this.
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  8. #38

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    A young mother senses / feels something is wrong at home that is miles away. Upon arriving back home, she and her new husband find the house on fire and their baby and baby sitter are safe. This scenario, like dowsing and other things cannot be duplicated in double blinded tests. Perhaps our Creator meant it to be that way.
    Very interesting explanation of why dowsing can not be "tested". Thankyou (said in a non-badgering friendly way)

    Ok then, to expand on your illustration : Notice, in that case, the mom didn't need rods. That is a clear-cut-case of gut intuition, right ? If that example is to be expanded and applied to dowsing (which is your clear intent), then ... are you saying that it's intuition/instinct . No different than an md'r can look at a landscape, and figure the "best place to start md'ing", right ? Or more than that, in sort of .... almost mystical way, right ?

    If so, then sure: It's outside of the ability of science to measure. You even hint at "creator" (your words, not mine). WHICH IS FINE. I'm totally onboard with that. I too don't believe we are "meat all the way to the bone" or that "this is all there is". I totally get that.

    But then you've got a big problem though, among your peers: A lot of them will distance themselves from such explanations. Because the moment you go "there", is the moment you start to admit that it's relying on the supernatural, mystical, etc... And that's the moment it starts to be lumped into a category of occult, spiritual, hocus pocus, etc.... So a lot of your peers MOVE FAR AWAY from that explanation. And will retreat back to "scientific" (albeit, as yet, un-discovered science).

    So I see a curious rift, within your own ranks, as to the explanation. But I appreciate your explanation. Just be aware, it will put you at odds with other dowsers. Who say there's some sort of "attraction" going on, between the object and the rod.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  9. #39

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Also, I would add, as to your "house on fire" and "kids in danger" example: Don't forget that there's often -time memory bias , at-play, in such examples. It works like this:

    We ALL have premonitions of danger, people we should call or check on, etc... All the time, Every day. And when nothing is amiss, we promptly forget our premonitions. But when one coincidentally comes true, only THEN do we remember our premonitions and think "Aha ! I knew it !". That's the trick of selective memory.

    It's the same thing for when we think our horoscopes come true. We are simply forgetting the massive amounts of "general pithy things " that didn't come true.

    Or how if you wake up to the song on your radio alarm clock, that you were JUST DREAMING ABOUT. You think "aha ! I'm psychic !". But the truth is: You dream hundreds of dreams per night, none of which come true, and forget all of them 10 seconds after you wake up. But if one were to coincidentally come true, THEN you wold remember it.

    So too can a lot of the "child" examples, that you cite, be chalked up to. I'm not saying this as an atheist skeptic. As I say, I'm a believer in "more than the here and now". But just saying : Also be aware of the other explanations that can exist, that DON'T point to something divine, supernatural, etc...
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  10. #40
    us
    The Watcher

    Apr 2004
    Northern Nevada
    Dowsing Rods and a Ranger Tell Examiner
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    Well Tom. We have wasted a few weeks on you. Just read the Sceitific proof on this board. We have nothing to prove. If you want to prove something it is now in your court...Art

    Said in a non-badgering, friendly, intellectual pro/con way.
    Last edited by aarthrj3811; Dec 31, 2018 at 11:02 AM.

  11. #41

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarthrj3811 View Post
    .... We have nothing to prove.....
    You're absolutely right . So when someone asks for "proof" there is no mandate or necessity on your part. You can say "no", at any time. Absolutely correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by aarthrj3811 View Post
    .... Just read the Sceitific proof on this board....
    Really ? Where ? And ... wait ... I thought you just said no proof would be forth-coming ?

    And no, On the contrary: it has not been wasted time. It's been very revealing and educating. In ... yes ... non-badgering and friendly discussion. I am very glad to know the rationale that can be given. Even if some people take issue with the reasons and rationale, it is VERY informative, to at least know the reasons people go with certain decisions, methods, beliefs, etc... So to that extent, no, it's not been a waste of time. I very much respect you guys for answering questions, giving the mindset/reasons, etc....

    Even if 2 sides don't "convince" each other, it is helpful to know the way each other thinks. Otherwise, it wouldn't be intellectually credible to 'diss something, w/o that person(s) being given opportunity to explain. Like to understand another religion, it's more intellectually credible and revealing to hear it from THEIR apologists, not ones OWN apologists (to borrow from a religious term).

    Quote Originally Posted by aarthrj3811 View Post
    ... If you want to prove something it is now in your court.....
    unfortunately, if I'm reading post #37 correctly, this will be impossible. It can't be proved or disproved. Unless you disagree with post #37 ?
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Dec 31, 2018 at 12:36 PM.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  12. #42
    us
    Jul 2011
    Pocket dowsing L- Rods shown above. Whites Beach Comber, Bounty Hunter Sharp Shooter II, Whites TM 808, Canon 350D EOS Digital Rebel XT DSLR Camera.
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    274 times
    Metal Detecting
    Each dowser uses their own individual method. Some say their rods sense targets. Some use no tools at all but "finger dowse." Some use pendulums. All these methods have found targets, from under a rod crossing to very long distances shots. The common beauty about dowsing is, each dowser has and uses their own method. I have never been criticized or told by another dowser my method is wrong. Likewise I will not tell another dowser their method is wrong because when I do, I am then wrong. What I will do though is listen to them and adopt anything and everything I can use from their information. Likewise, if asked, I will explain how I dowse and if the listener wants to try it, that is their choice.

    Through out past centuries, science has argued and bickered back and forth on questions and has CHANGED their conclusions (so called facts) countless times on many questions. Dowsing, being as varied as it is in its application by the dowser, does not suffer what science suffers, but has always stayed constant and is repeatable in the field. In short, science has had to bow to the statement: "When the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." I don't care who or who did not say it, it is a true statement that fits science very well. In the end, it gives the impression science does not know anything. Stay tuned for more dowsing finds soon.
    Last edited by lesjcbs; Dec 31, 2018 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Finish
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  13. #43

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    ..... Some say their rods sense targets. Some use no tools at all....
    Very revealing. No tools at all. Since, of course, it's the "tools" we are discussing. Very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    .... science has argued and bickered back and forth on questions and has CHANGED their conclusions (so called facts) countless times on many questions....
    Yes. That is the "undiscovered science" explanation. Right ?

    Said in an un-badgering friendly way.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  14. #44
    us
    Jul 2011
    Pocket dowsing L- Rods shown above. Whites Beach Comber, Bounty Hunter Sharp Shooter II, Whites TM 808, Canon 350D EOS Digital Rebel XT DSLR Camera.
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    274 times
    Metal Detecting
    The work of Chadwick and Jensen (1971) appears to be the first documented experiment carried out under double blind conditions which was relevant to the dowsing problem. Chadwick, the experimenter, was a sceptic, and did not know the correct answers. 150 subjects were tested, mostly novice dowsers. A path was chosen leading through a park, with no known features. Subjects were asked to place small wooden blocks where they felt they were getting a reaction or field . The positions of the blocks were noted after each run, and removed before the next run. When all the subjects had been tested, a conventional magnetometer survey was carried out along the path. The correlations between the subjects and the magnetometry were found to be statistically significant at the .05 level. There was therefore some evidence of correlation between magnetic gradient changes and dowsing reactions. The conclusions were that there are sufficient statistically significant results to warrant further investigations.
    Tom_in_CA likes this.
    Einstein said: I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, however, unjustified. The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time.”

    If dowsing does not work, the Spanish would not have used it as much as they did.

    Practice makes perfect, even in dowsing.

  15. #45

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesjcbs View Post
    The work of Chadwick and Jensen (1971) appears to ....
    You mean this ? :

    Dowsing: A Review of Experimental Research by George P. Hansen

    If so, have you read Pg. 349 and 350 .... ? Seems the "jury was still out" ?
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

 

 
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