what happened?

[Tom_in_CA]

Trying to catch up on all the discussion after a few days absence. I'd love to reply to each person who gave me food for thought (thanx). Un-discovered science, results debate, random chance vs successes, spiritual vs natural, etc... blah blah blah.

During my few days away, I had an "aha moment". I thought of something I wanted to add to the bomb dowsing thread. So I came to add, but it's gone Oh well, here's what I wanted to say:

As we all know, the military was dissatisfied with the results of their testing (wrote it off to random chance). But as we all know, a dowsing rod in the hands of someone inexperienced, will OF COURSE lead to poor results. They stick the thing in the hands of an inexperienced non-believer, and what do they expect? So here's where I'm going with this: Some of you have attested to results, that can be nothing other than bonafied successes of dowsing. Treasures for instance? Diamonds? etc.... You know that your results are better than random chance, hunches, etc.. Then, why doesn't a qualified dowser simply go the military, and SHOW them that it works? There are scores of dowsers in the USA. Surely one of them must be willing to set the record straight on these skewed test results? You know the old saying: "build a new mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door" You would be a millionaire overnight, if you could show it's possible to dowse for landmines.

Why doesn't someone respond the scandalous newspaper accounts of Sniffex? And if you say it's because Sniffex is a different form of dowsing, then why not show up on their doorstep with the correct form of dowsing, and make millions showing them it can be done? For example, md'ing clubs I've been in, are sometimes called out to help the police find a ditched murder weapon, spent crime scene bullets, etc.... Humorously, in some cases, they will tell us "yeah, we have a department metal detector, and we tried to search with it, but all we got was foil, some bailing wire, and it squaked everywhere!". We oblige, set up a search party, go out with our detectors, and find it! The cops are happy, as they thought that perhaps a bullet was simply too small to find, or the weapon certainly wasn't there, since THEY couldn't find it, or whatever. So in the same sense, can't someone help Uncle Sam know that dowsing can work to help the military?

Aside from that, I did some word searches on dowsing the other day, and came up with two hits, I'd like comment on, from the pro-dowsers.

The first one is from a secular viewpoint:

http://skepdic.com/dowsing.html

The next one is from a Christian theological viewpoint:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/.../crj0099a.html

In each case, the "results" aren't debated, or, to the extent they are (attributing some to random chance, hunches, etc...), they also give stories of actual successes! But they attribute them to spiritual things, not natural or scientific (discovered or undiscovered) means.

[dowser]

I was once told that invisible signals were all around me. Signals I couldn't hear, or see, or smell. Big signals, and small signals, countless signals, that could go right through you, without you feeling anything. And a way has been found to detect these signals. This is unbelievable I thought, no such thing can happen, everybody that believes that, must be crazy. Then I turned the radio on... They were right!!!

[Tom_in_CA]

"I was once told that invisible signals were all around me. Signals I couldn't hear, or see ...............This is unbelievable I thought ............ Then I turned the radio on... They were right!!!"

Dowser, the TV/Radio example you give is "discovered" science, and the the other (dowsing signals) is "un-discovered" science. So, you have basically fallen back on the un-discovered science defence. Once again, I will point out, that future undiscovered science can also proove the opposite, that it is impossible, unscientific, etc... Those that oppose can just as easily say that future science will disprove you. So it's a draw .... an argument from silence. How can either side use that crutch?

I can just as easily tell you that "future science" will proove that map dowsing has a scientific explanation, and how can you disprove that? Yet dowsers have come on this forum admitting that perhaps THAT type of dowsing lacks any other explanation, than that of being spiritual. But NO, "future science" can come to that one's rescue too, right?

[Tom_in_CA]

Dell, no doubt, you've run into map dowsers (with the plumb-bob, etc..) right? Ok then, let's say I'm one of them. I tell you... Dell.... "No, this isn't supernatural Dell, how can you be so silly? It's mental! just like a heightened sense of smell, some day, science will come along and show how my brain did it. Nothing at all to do with the mystical!" Would you allow me that explanation?

We had a lady come to our md'ing club, who, back in the late 1970s, lost a $50,000 diamond ring (they were a millionaire couple who'd come up from Beverly Hills, to do their 50th anniversary at Carmel Beach, near Monterey, CA). That was serious money in those days! Well, Carmel beach is a mile long, and the lady didn't know exactly where she'd lost it. Club members took off in multiple directions, knowing there was a 10% reward! ($5,000 was good money in those days!). One of the club members took out a map of the beach, stood there in the parking lot on his tailgate, assembled a plumb-bob over the map, and began to map-dowse. Several skeptical member laughed, and left him to his superstition, while he did his thing. Afterawhile, the map-dowsing told him where the ring was. He took out his detector and headed to that area of the beach. BINGO! He found it! He got the last laugh on those skeptics. True Story! I was there!

Now, is that mental? I mean, can you brain react with the plumb-bob and the paper map, much like a heightened sense of smell Dell? Don't evade the question, address this please. To say "no, that obviously spiritual in nature", is exactly where I would also say "your rods and the magnet in your pocket (or however it is you do it), are also spiritual in nature. Not mental". If you say they are mental/brain, then you have to allow for my map-dowsing friend. Afterall, how do you argue with his success? Certainly you can't say it's spiritual/supernatural can you? Afterall, how do you know future science won't someday proove that it is completely mental and scientificially explained?

"WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE, IS THEREFORE REPEATABLE AND CAN BE PROVEN" The results don't have anything to do with mental abilities (like, as in, similar to a heightened sense of smell or whatever). The things "done" are due to spiritual forces, not natural/mental forces.

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Tom : HI and thanks for that story on map dowsing, I could add several more, but you did just fine.

I could add a map of Tayopa that had been dowsed from Alaska. The gentleman had /has never been there, yet he successfully located almost 85% of the things that we had by physical and satellite searching.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Tom_in_CA]

Thanx Don Jose. You see? I don't deny that successes don't exist within dowsing. I only have a problem with those that would explain it outside the realms of the spiritual connotations it most obviouly entails.

And for those that insist dowsing is mental or scientific, then so too, is the map dowsers practice mental or scientific. Right? You can't have it both ways. Just as your mental or scientific dowsing has not been proven with current scientific means (thus you rely on "future" science), so too does map dowsing rely on future science to show that it is totally natural, and nothing to do with the spiritual side of things, right? Can you deny them this explanation?

[dowser]

Hey Tom. Dowsing for bombs would be difficult. There might be to many other similar element targets/junk. But if the Military needs me to find a treasure, I'd oblige.

[Tom_in_CA]

Dowser, so there are things (non-treasures) that are impossible (not able to do better than random chance) to find. Good! Although I don't understand why, since a lot of dowsers claim to find diamonds, water, buried crime victims, etc.. Those would seem to fit into the category of non-metalic treasures. Can you explain why those dowsers are wrong?

Anyhow, to address Dell:

"the use of L-Rods in the field is impossible to have a physics application to metering the "field" of an anomaly" This leans towards the "dowsing is scientific". Dell, you are swapping back and forth between the 3 explanations of dowsing. The 3 are: 1. scientifically explainable 2. mentally (naturally) explainable 3. supernatural. You have been in print leaning on #2 "mental dowsing". Now, you hop onto #1? So which is it? Based on this statement: "If a Dowser brings his Mental Dowsing to a Spiritual level, there is no reason to dis-believe them" It seems like you don't really care! Ie.: you have relegated yourself to a "if it works, it must be true" position! And better than that, by your own statement, you don't discount those spiritualist's explanations! Do you see how low you've gone? You should be fighting those folks tooth and nail Dell! Of course it's not spiritual, nor do those that think such a thing have any leg to stand on, right? To admit such, is to admit that they might as well go consult crystal balls, tarot cards, etc.... So you better go retract those statements.


You say: "Skeptics post with a "one Size fits all" mentality" I am trying hard to understand how there are different types of dowsing, while at the same time, trying to understand how they don't contradict each other.

You say: "handicapped by your own closed minded belief, or loyal service to the Skeptic agenda" No, I'm not close-minded to clear rebutalls. Please lend me a good defense: Is it scientific? then show me how. Is it mental? then show me how. Is it spiritual? No need! I already believe that. And don't run to "future science", because I can just as easily say "future science" disprooves your position. And don't run to "results" because I will only attribute them to spritual means. You should have no problem with that, as you have said so in this quote: "......to a Spiritual level, there is no reason to dis-believe them"

You say: "impose your own negative beliefs" Dell, this is a forum, is it not? Is a contrary opinion, by definition "negative"? If I call an apple an apple, and you don't like that, is that "negative"? Sure, I'm going to call a spade a spade. Just as when I say I have a peanut butter sandwich that finds treasure, you'd say "that's hogwash", I can say "WHAT?? are you "negative" about my peanut butter sandwich?" "how can you be so close-minded?" Tsk tsk.

You say: "If it has already been done, it becomes fact." Yes, it becomes fact that it is done via spiritual means. Why don't you just ADMIT this Dell? You've already admitted it's within the realms of possibility! Let's put a stop to this. Truce right now, admit to this, and w'ere done. Don't run for cover under mental or scientific. Agreed?

You say: "of how mental dowsing is accompolished" How is it accomplished?

[dowser]

Tom. All elements create a dowsable anomaly, as do minerals. Element anomalies, like diamond/carbon, are a lot stronger than surrounding minerals, like quartz, granite, jasper of the same size . In the right situation when surrounding area does not carry other minerals sizable enough to create a stronger signal than the diamond size you are looking for, diamonds can be located. I didn't know anybody else posted on diamonds? As for buried bodies, the body would dowse, due to different density of dirt next to it. Different densities trigger L-rod response. But to find a body, would be a different Dowsing field, than what I do. As for water, the water creates a dowsable anomaly, in a line, but it takes a pro to tell the depth.

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Tom the result of my experiments in the para-normal have convinced me that there is just one type of dowsing. the only difference is how you utilize it. And it is not supernatural, just an undeveloped natural human ability

From another [post in the past, this in reference to natural and supernatural..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a brief of one of the many experiments that I have carried out. I always try to get the subject positively involved in any experiments since this drastically flavors the outcome.

My wife and I used to play cribbage. In this game there are 4 unturned cards that are later turned over to give one of the players extra points, this is called a kitty. I convinced my wife to start trying to tell me how any points were in this Kitty before turning them over.

At first she only hit in the random chance zone, then slowly she started to become more accurate until she was finally hitting almost 100%. I had note books full of her positive results.

One day when she was "HOT", I suggested a little game to which she agreed.

In this game I would place a well shuffled deck of cards in front of me face down. I would draw one at a time from the top, look at it, concentrate as to whether it was red or black only and she was supposed to guess (?) what color it was.

She then proceeded to call every one "incorrectly" for the entire deck of 52 cards. This of course puzzled me , so I repeated it several times, most of the time with the same results. I asked her what was she doing, I pointed out that the chance factor was the same for calling them all right as all wrong, was she fighting me?

She hesitated a bit then said "Yes, I would see Red so I would say black because I didn't want anyone to control my mind, it isn't natural nor right". She was a devout Catholic and said that it was against the Bible what I was doing and never would try again, sniff.

We still do have moments of mental contact daily in which she will anticipate what I am thinking or going to do, even from another room. This is not too uncommon among married couples.

It could be embarrassing hehe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Tom_in_CA]

Dowser, you say: "All elements create a dowsable anomaly, as do minerals ...... Different densities trigger L-rod response" Yes, this is the standard line of explanation from the "dowsing is scientific" camp. But it has not been explained how this can happen. No signal any body emits, has a measurable signal, nor would it have anything to do with making a brass rod turn. Yes, sounds good, but is only a theory that rests on hoped-for-future-science to proove it. And as we've said, this is a draw, since "tomorrow never comes", the argument is bullet-proof for pro-dowsers. It's a draw since skeptics can also say that someday a device will come along to conclusively proove there is no such signal, nor can a rod turn to it, even if there was. So around and round it goes.

But if you admit that future science is a draw, you'll say "but dowsing works, therefore it's scientific". To which I'll say "it's supernatural". But, while you guys admit this on the one hand (Dell's and others admissions that it might be true), you want to distance yourself from that, when you see that that teeters dangerously close to other forms of mystical, occult, etc.... Oh well.

[jeff of pa]

During my few days away, I had an "aha moment". I thought of something I wanted to add to the bomb dowsing thread. So I came to add, but it's gone Oh well, here's what I wanted to say:

Was Removed Because it was about a Electronic Device.

I see Mention of Electronic Dowsing Devices, I delete the post without Warning
and if the Starter of the thread mentions one the whole thread goes.

[Tom_in_CA]

Uh, ok Jeff. Thanx for the explanation. Please don't delete this one, (even though the dreaded sn *** ex word was used at the start. I repent and won't do it again

Question for this policy: What if the electronics actually did nothing? Like, wires that go nowhere, circuits that do nothing, etc.... Simply a battery tester, but nothing else functions to do anything. In that case, it's not truly "electronic" and thus can be discussed here? Or....?

[jeff of pa]

Uh, ok Jeff. Thanx for the explanation. Please don't delete this one, (even though the dreaded sn *** ex word was used at the start. I repent and won't do it again

Question for this policy: What if the electronics actually did nothing? Like, wires that go nowhere, circuits that do nothing, etc.... Simply a battery tester, but nothing else functions to do anything. In that case, it's not truly "electronic" and thus can be discussed here? Or....?

NO !

Mention It & Try to Discuss it, I delete it.

Loopholes Don't Work with me.

Moderators Option.

[Tom_in_CA]

"short mainly weak bursts of radiation inclusive of magnetic flux" huh?

"I just recalled the ancient Mayan solar calendar forecast is for the year 2012 being the end of the world?" Oh, nevermind, this prooves all the forgoing is perfectly true too.

[aarthrj3811]

Hey Tom…..I know a lot of people that agree with the Mayan calendar. I also know people that claim that the earths magnetic poles are going to switch. I see Al Gore on the news saying the earth is going to burn up. Heck, I remember people telling us that we would be out of oil in ten years. Gee. That was in the 50’s….So you see the only thing that you can count on is the fact no matter what you eat or do you are going to die…Art

[dowser]

Hey hetty...Tell us more about mental dowsing, it's interesting! Were you thinking of pearls, or treasure in general when you saw into the hill? Do you have your eyes open or closed, when you imagine yourself tunneling into the hill. Do you use any kind of signaling device to help you in any way? And what convinced you enough, to make you sure that you weren't digging a hole for nothing? I'll have to try it...

[ClonedSIM]

I just answered a query to a friend in New Mexico enquiring if I can differentiate between different parties burying
treasures, so I thought I would copy and paste it on here. As there will be luck involved in dowsing for the next 2 or 3 years
sceptics will have a field day till then. I dont bother knocking up posts for this forum any more as certain individuals use ths forum to invent rediculous terminoligy to further their own financial agendas and cover up their ignorance of mental dowsing.
Mental dowsing is purely and simply mental radar.
I throw out a thought at a hillside and mentally burrow into the hill mentally chasing treasure. If I get a positive reaction I will think of gold. If it is gold I will get a positive yes and a rough indication of size, and nothing more. If there are no solar flares overhead, and no moon to deflect them to earth and if I am not wearing a large floppy hat to deflect UV rays, my dowsing rod will be dead.

If there is nothing there I will receive a mental blank I cannot perceive if it is French or Spanish. It is absolutely identical to man made radar machines which give you mental blobs, and like man made radar with experience I have learnt to tell the difference in most or in many cases.

The brain is powered for dowsing by strong magnetic waves fuelled by strong solar flares bouncing off the moon at day or night and covering the entire human body. The further north a dowser practices his art the more chance of intermediate or weak dowsing whilst waiting on good dowsing weather when I , living almost as close south as is possible to the south pole must rely on stronger flares. Proof of this is Canada which has more interference than its share.The solar cycles average 11 years and we are in the first year of the present cycle.

To a certain extent a study of solar graphs will show that the peak of the present cycle in 2012 should be the strongest time for dowsing having commenced in the middle of December 2006. The last strong magnetic flux which was ideal for dowsing was in June 2004. I was dowsing alongside a road on the edge of a gully only yards from the beach when I mentally picked up below, small silver boxes filled with pearls about double or triple the size of a cigar box, at a depth of about 9 feet, placed on their edge and spaced out every 3 and a 1/4 paces. I felt that the dowsing signals went for a fair distance, with my estimation of their quantity being in the hundreds. Soon after that the sun went to sleep.

For those living in the northern hemisphere there will be many short mainly weak bursts of radiation inclusive of magnetic flux vital for mental dowsing, although I doubt the accuracy of dowsing during such short weak bursts.

I just recalled the ancient Mayan solar calendar forecast is for the year 2012 being the end of the world

Regards Max

Picture below is digging into the side of a hill after one of those boxes. At a distance of three and a quarter paces and a depth of 6 feet a layer of cemented black top soil 2 foot thick had to be broken thru. Found the remains of a childs beach sand shovel inside the tunnel, proving families were often present on long sea voyages. At the end of the tunnel on the back wall was the figure of a fish impressed into the wall with the tail of the fish pointing to the bottom right hand wall. All the Jesuits signs were derived from the bible. I had to scrape off the sign as I didnt know what lay behind.

And......?

What did you find?

[teleprospector]

….So you see the only thing that you can count on is the fact no matter what you eat or do you are going to die…Art
[/quote]
Art, I don't want to die healthy! (lol!)
Jon

[ClonedSIM]

I just answered a query to a friend in New Mexico enquiring if I can differentiate between different parties burying
treasures, so I thought I would copy and paste it on here. As there will be luck involved in dowsing for the next 2 or 3 years
sceptics will have a field day till then. I dont bother knocking up posts for this forum any more as certain individuals use ths forum to invent rediculous terminoligy to further their own financial agendas and cover up their ignorance of mental dowsing.
Mental dowsing is purely and simply mental radar.
I throw out a thought at a hillside and mentally burrow into the hill mentally chasing treasure. If I get a positive reaction I will think of gold. If it is gold I will get a positive yes and a rough indication of size, and nothing more. If there are no solar flares overhead, and no moon to deflect them to earth and if I am not wearing a large floppy hat to deflect UV rays, my dowsing rod will be dead.

If there is nothing there I will receive a mental blank I cannot perceive if it is French or Spanish. It is absolutely identical to man made radar machines which give you mental blobs, and like man made radar with experience I have learnt to tell the difference in most or in many cases.

The brain is powered for dowsing by strong magnetic waves fuelled by strong solar flares bouncing off the moon at day or night and covering the entire human body. The further north a dowser practices his art the more chance of intermediate or weak dowsing whilst waiting on good dowsing weather when I , living almost as close south as is possible to the south pole must rely on stronger flares. Proof of this is Canada which has more interference than its share.The solar cycles average 11 years and we are in the first year of the present cycle.

To a certain extent a study of solar graphs will show that the peak of the present cycle in 2012 should be the strongest time for dowsing having commenced in the middle of December 2006. The last strong magnetic flux which was ideal for dowsing was in June 2004. I was dowsing alongside a road on the edge of a gully only yards from the beach when I mentally picked up below, small silver boxes filled with pearls about double or triple the size of a cigar box, at a depth of about 9 feet, placed on their edge and spaced out every 3 and a 1/4 paces. I felt that the dowsing signals went for a fair distance, with my estimation of their quantity being in the hundreds. Soon after that the sun went to sleep.

For those living in the northern hemisphere there will be many short mainly weak bursts of radiation inclusive of magnetic flux vital for mental dowsing, although I doubt the accuracy of dowsing during such short weak bursts.

I just recalled the ancient Mayan solar calendar forecast is for the year 2012 being the end of the world

Regards Max

Picture below is digging into the side of a hill after one of those boxes. At a distance of three and a quarter paces and a depth of 6 feet a layer of cemented black top soil 2 foot thick had to be broken thru. Found the remains of a childs beach sand shovel inside the tunnel, proving families were often present on long sea voyages. At the end of the tunnel on the back wall was the figure of a fish impressed into the wall with the tail of the fish pointing to the bottom right hand wall. All the Jesuits signs were derived from the bible. I had to scrape off the sign as I didnt know what lay behind.

And......?

What did you find?

Was nothing found?