pulse valve mineral jig build... need valve seat design help

[Jim in Idaho]

So, when you look at the two types, you see different operating conditions. In the first, the water pressure from the inlet has to overcome both the spring pressure, and the vacuum created by the water in the standpipe. When it does, the valve opens until the pressure drops, and the spring closes the valve.

In the second type, the valve is held closed by the vacuum alone, and the inlet pressure + the spring pressure open the valve until the pressure drops enough to let the valve be closed by the vacuum alone, or the weight of the diaphragm assembly. In this unit, the spring is doing nothing more than acting as a counterbalance to the diaphragm assembly's weight. I can see this being pretty touchy to adjust. Also, for this type, the outlet valve seat has to be roughly even with the top of the valve body. If it were much below, the valve wouldn't close.
Note that in both cases there is an adjustment for the rate of input flow....I'm thinking that is critical to the overall operation.
Jim

 

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[spudnick]

bobw53 -(-I think I might have to build one of these.-) Yes, you should. Lol. ,
by your second post you were getting your head around it for sure. If you were to watch one of Jims videos on Mineral Jigs , you will see exactly the water force needed, the pulse rate speed needed, screen box action, to move the material efficiently to trap gemstones. ( ). His unit is powered by an electric motor, to mechanical arm , that reciprocates the rubber diaphragm. I want to power the jig with a 1 " gas water pump to a pulse valve, and achieve the same results as Jims screen box output. I made my screen box 1 inch narrower than Jims , thinking i would probably have slightly less power to lift the material . So about 25% narrower and probably 25% less material run per hour. So far, only thing running through my screen box is water... Haha
Thanks bobw53 ,for showing an interest , posting and watching my long drawn out video, and yes you should build one, Jims already noodling away. Lol .... Ken ......... Here is Jims Mechanical mineral Jig running

 

[spudnick]

Bill_saf -- Yes, for sure ,took me a while, (manometer) i get what your saying,. this gives me some ideas to try on my next testing procedure.... Your profile picture (trommel setup on the goose neck trailer), other posts , builds ,etc..For sure your a ( been there, done that) kind of guy.. .. Which makes you a perfect candidate to build a pulse valve jig set up. Lol..... Thanks again Bill , for the big effort to post the info and videos, perfect timming...... Ken

 

[spudnick]

So, when you look at the two types, you see different operating conditions. In the first, the water pressure from the inlet has to overcome both the spring pressure, and the vacuum created by the water in the standpipe. When it does, the valve opens until the pressure drops, and the spring closes the valve.

In the second type, the valve is held closed by the vacuum alone, and the inlet pressure + the spring pressure open the valve until the pressure drops enough to let the valve be closed by the vacuum alone, or the weight of the diaphragm assembly. In this unit, the spring is doing nothing more than acting as a counterbalance to the diaphragm assembly's weight. I can see this being pretty touchy to adjust. Also, for this type, the outlet valve seat has to be roughly even with the top of the valve body. If it were much below, the valve wouldn't close.
Note that in both cases there is an adjustment for the rate of input flow....I'm thinking that is critical to the overall operation.
Jim

I agree with every thing Jim just said above., also those jig set ups have very little power ( so to speak ), more of a laboratory size, processing a cup or two of concentrates at a time , or maybe separating fine gold from black sand in a limited way etc. But then again, they are pulsing, mine is not . Lol... We need an adjustable, forcefull fluid bed lift with a wave action to the tailings out flow and 2 pulses per second of time. ....Ken

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Ken, I hate to tell you this, but you will never get the action of my jig with a pulse-valve type jig. That type of jig simply doesn't move enough water to do it. It could only be done with a very large water supply, and large diameter standpipe relative to the ragging box size. Most pulse-valve jigs are designed to recover relatively clean gold from small sand/gravel. On the other hand, mine doesn't work very well for gold recovery, unless I use a much smaller screen box. The spring/springs that power the pulse don't have enough strength to lift the steel shot ragging, so a lot of non-gold fines end up in the hutch. The steel ragging, when a couple of inches deep, weighs about 15 lbs. Two springs just about equal 15lbs. If I add a 3rd spring it would bog the motor. That means the reduction ratio is poor. For gems, though, it's the cat's a--....LOL
At some point, I plan on making a smaller screen box to try for gold.....probably won't get it done before winter.
It would be an interesting test to build a pulse-valve setup with a 4" dia. standpipe. It would require a large diameter diaphragm in order to get enough pressure to overcome the vacuum in the pipe, however.
My jig is pulsing about 18 cubic inches of water on each pulse. That lifts the gravel about 1/2", which is considered typical for jigs. With a 4" standpipe, you would need the water to drop 1 1/2" on each pulse to get an equal pulse to my jig. Just something to think about.
Jim

 

[Bill_saf]

Mr. Jim

is your makeup water coming in to the hutch or in to the raging box? I have seen your vid's but not for quite some time and just going off the top of my head I cant remember.

Bill

 

[Bill_saf]

Mr. Ken

we will get you up and running. I like being part of a think tank.

Bill

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Hey Bill,
Interesting you would ask that. As I was typing my last post to Ken, I got to thinking about that, with regards to cleaner gold recovery. It occurred to me that I hadn't tried ONLY running the input water into the hutch. As I recall, I did try splitting the input water between the hutch and the feed tray, but not the hutch alone. The idea of only running the water input into the hutch is to weaken the suction stroke, thus diminishing the drawing down of lights into the hutch. One thing I found was that it is difficult to accurately split the inflow.
I almost ran out to the shop to try that, and then remembered I have all that equipment on the truck, and I'm not excited about the idea of unloading, and reloading that stuff. At some point this summer, I'll get that test done.
For gems, I run ALL the input water into the feed tray, and thus above the ragging. The reason that works fine for gems is that the material is already classified to get rid of anything small enough to go through the screen and into the hutch, thus the hutch stays reasonably clean of material. For gold, of course, you can't do that as you would lose all the small gold-bearing material. Also, for gems, due to the slight SG difference between gems and the country rock, you need all the help you can get to recover a high percentage. A powerful suction stroke, along with the water going down through the country rock ragging helps with that.
Jim

 

[spudnick]

Mr. Ken

we will get you up and running. I like being part of a think tank.

Bill

Right on !!!, Mr Bill., Never even entered my mind ( make up water ) . Great Question. Good timing again !. This think tank is really working for me, as i have "O" experience with jigs, and limited in prospecting. The combined knowledge from post contributors here is excellent. Where else can you find engineering, designing, operational experience, hands on techniques , building methods, trouble shooting, etc, all in one,. for such a specialized field ?


Mr. Jim,
Once again, your last two posts contain a LOAD of Quality info, will take me a while to digest it all. Lol. The math , sizes, ratios , drop per diameter, weights ,effects, results, reduction ratio ,etc ,etc . Wow !

Yes, a Large stand pipe, large diaphragm, would be very interesting.

I am mostly wanting to use the jig as a gemstone recovery unit, so i need that perfect screen box action you have for sure.. I know i am shooting for the moon.. And i am willing to build what ever it takes to make it work.. My goal was to build it with lasting quality, sturdy, user friendly, easy access for mods or repair, small, and light weight. Powered by the gas water pump only. BUT, i am flexible...

- I would have no problem with not using the pulse valve i made , using it for a book end or putting it in the back with the rest of my unused projects. .Lol

-But, if we came up with a device to work in conjunction with the valve. That is good too

- Here is the way i see it,,( You have a 1 horse power water pump, which has the energy needed to operate the screen box efficiently.)

-So the question is ,, ( How do you transform or manipulate that energy , water flow, to get the required pulse action.? )


Thanks again to every one who posted ,.... Ken




-

 

[spudnick]

LOL....a lifetime of concrete work will toughen you up....................................or kill you. I don't have wheels on any of my prospecting gear. But, there have been times I wish I did.
On that last post...I was just writing as things occurred to me as I thought about your setup.....sort of noodling. It should be pretty simple, but it's not turning out that way. I may end up building one to figure it out....LOL
Jim

I built this custom dolly specifically for the mineral jig., So its not really off topic. Lol.
I thought i would share this build as it would be of interest to some of you. Hopefully someone might benefit from an idea on it that would suit there needs.
-Custom dolly with 4 position "D" handle-
This dolly was made with left over and recycled material i had already , I thought a goose neck design to lower the load to make it less tippy going over rough terrain was the way to go,, But, feels heavy and awkward when loaded,(i was surprised ) so i use it in the straight through position. The wide "D" handle feels great, especially the radius corners. Wide handle gives you more anti tip holding ability. The bottom box is handy, i store straps in it, and a pail sits in it nicely. The black plastic is 1/4" umhw? . It works good for skidding over logs, etc. The screws are countersunk . It is one piece with 2" side wing extensions ,scored , heated and bent @ 45% that have 1/2" diameter tie down holes in it. Works perfect , no obstructions from tie down hooks when skidding over rough terrain. The front bottom of the box, has a tube hand hold for lifting, very handy for sure (that was my oldest son"s idea). The handle down position can be front or back. It fits perfect on a quad rack when compacted. Easier to fit in your vehicle as well. .. Total 52" high, 20" wide "d" handle, and just under 40 " high compacted. The box is 12" x, 13" wide . The handle securing knobs ( disks) are 2.1/8" dia x 1/4" thick with a knurled edge for gripping., no tools needed. Lol..............Ken

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Really nice cart, Ken. One suggestion I would make is large diameter wheels. Large wheels roll much easier in rough terrain. They do make going under fences difficult, however....LOL
On the large diameter standpipe, fed by a large diaphragm....the downside is you need lots of water flow to feed the diaphragm. Otherwise the pulse rate is very slow. I built mine with the idea I wanted it quiet while prospecting. I hate gas engines, and the noise they produce. So, my design is more mechanically complicated, but is reliable and quiet. I've made a few upgrades to mine, too. Zero water leaks, now, around the screen box. Thanks to this discussion, I may have stumbled on why mine hasn't worked well for gold, too. Bill saw that, too. This has been a good thread.....we've all learned things about these jigs.
I'd still like to build a pulse-valve unit. Maybe next winter.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Generally, jigs use a sinusoidal waveform......the suction stroke and pressure stroke are identical. The downside of this is you sometimes need what's called "makeup" water going into the jig below the screen and directly into the hutch. The idea of this water is to limit the power of the suction stroke. A stationary jig that is fed a consistent size and quality of material can be "dialed-in" to get the best recovery ratio. The idea being to get the most gold, and the least junk. One adjustment is the amount of makeup water.
But, some engineer figured out that if you use a cam, you can vary the profile to give a long, smooth suction stroke, with a very sharp, fast pressure stroke. This waveform is called a "sawtooth waveform". The idea was to get the benefits of using makeup water, with it's critical adjustment, without using makeup water. Now, most of the better jigs use this type of waveform. I built mine with this waveform, so haven't done much with the makeup water, other than a few experiments. I need a jig to be portable and simple.....the fewer adjustments required to make it perform well, the better. Having fewer adjustments probably costs me some small amount of efficiency. But, for prospecting for gems, the tradeoff is worth it.
It occurred to me yesterday that when using my jig for gold the reason I'm getting too many lights in the hutch is the lack of makeup water. I need to do a test running ALL the input water directly into the hutch, rather than above the ragging into the feed tray. That may radically reduce the amount of lights in the hutch. Of course, there's a downside to this.....a less powerful suction stroke may mean less gold going into the hutch, too. There's always a tradeoff.
Jim

 

[Bill_saf]

I am mostly wanting to use the jig as a gemstone recovery unit, so i need that perfect screen box action you have for sure.. I know i am shooting for the moon.. And i am willing to build what ever it takes to make it work.. My goal was to build it with lasting quality, sturdy, user friendly, easy access for mods or repair, small, and light weight. Powered by the gas water pump only. BUT, i am flexible...

- I would have no problem with not using the pulse valve i made , using it for a book end or putting it in the back with the rest of my unused projects. .Lol

-But, if we came up with a device to work in conjunction with the valve. That is good too

- Here is the way i see it,,( You have a 1 horse power water pump, which has the energy needed to operate the screen box efficiently.)

-So the question is ,, ( How do you transform or manipulate that energy , water flow, to get the required pulse action.? )


Thanks again to every one who posted ,.... Ken -

What I see needs to be done #1 lighter spring, #2 stand pipe moved to the side and lower in the hutch, #3 adding 2 tees and 3 gate valves to fine tune the flow for pulse valve, makeup water, and dump excess water from the pump.

I would hate to see you park the valve as a door stop its to dang nice and I can see it working maybe not for gems but I would give it a try first.

Bill

 

[Jim in Idaho]

I'm with Bill. It probably won't work for gems, but could do very well on gold.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Hey, Ken! I was watching your first video, again, on Youtube, and it dawned on me why your jig isn't working. It's those connectors you're using. They are great for pressure, but are notorious for leaking when used in vacuum situations. I've got $10 (big spender) says if you hard-plumbed your standpipe, the jig will pulse.
Jim

 

[spudnick]

Hey Big Spender, lol, i thought i was a good trouble shooter, Geesh, you and Bill keep coming up with these possible scenarios.
Another one, for my long list of testing trials... I will try that one first. Hope to get at it this week end.
I am Tied up with other obligations.
Hope your getting out there, running a few yards of high grade gemstone pay gravel .........Ken

 

[Jim in Idaho]

I haven't been out since my Wyoming trip a couple of weeks ago.
www.treasurenet.com/forums/rocks-gems/503073-wyoming-trip-last-week.html
Weather has been too wet. Next week I'm heading into extreme southern Idaho for some blacklight prospecting. I've been waiting on the moon phase...I want it as dark as possible.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Mr. Jim

is your makeup water coming in to the hutch or in to the raging box? I have seen your vid's but not for quite some time and just going off the top of my head I cant remember.

Bill

Bill, I just got done running a test of my jig using 1/8" steel shot ragging, and running all the water directly into the hutch. Still only got about 6.5:1 reduction ratio, which is lousy. But, I only used 1 1/4" of shot. Deeper ragging would help, but at some point the weight of all the shot has a negative effect on the strength of the pulse. What would probably help is a finer screen, and smaller shot. I'm pretty-much done with development on the jig, however. It works great for gems, and that's what I built it for. I'm sure, with a bunch of tinkering, I could get a jig built that would work well for gold.....I'm just not a serious gold prospector.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

After some research I found out that when using a jig to do the primary reduction a 16:1 is a very good ratio. That's what an IHC tapered jig, used in a round configuration gets. They run the cons into a second and 3rd jig to get to an eventual reduction of about 4,000:1. So, considering I only had 1 1/4" of shot, and no sand bed above the shot, and didn't do any tweaking of the water flow, maybe that 6.5:1 isn't that bad.
Jim

 

[spudnick]

Jim, good update on your makeup water jig test.
So, is this reduction rate you are referring to, % of screen box tailings compared to % of bottom hutch drain tailings. ?
I should be posting an update on my testing tomorrow. Got a start on it today, no success yet.... oh well, keep smiling and carry on. Lol.. Ken