pulse valve mineral jig build... need valve seat design help

[Bill_saf]

Ken

do you have a copy of Machinery's Handbook? if so you can find the info your looking for in it. that's if you like doing the math.

Bill

 

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[spudnick]

Ken

do you have a copy of Machinery's Handbook? if so you can find the info your looking for in it. that's if you like doing the math.

Bill

Bill, , unreal, i have a copy # 24 about 2 feet away from where im typing. Lol. Why on earth would i have not thought of that.?
I have been going around telling folks im old school. . And its my prized book. Maybe i am ,getting old and forget full. Lol
Ya, the math and equations are not my strong point, more of a trial and error type guy.. Thanks for the reminder.. Ken
I did install a manometer type guage , with a psi scale to 8 lbs. A lot easier to measure the low PSI
Here is a test i worked on today, Requested by SpecJet - John, i made a new diaphragm gasket out of a tire tube, put in a light spring, compressed down all the way, it was at 1.5 lbs psi. (second picture. ) Then i tried a medium spring, slowly compressing the spring, until it bottomed out. Psi topped out at 5.0 psi. No pulse as usual. Just leaking by the valve seat. (right pic ) hows that for an expanded doughnut look. Lol .................... Will try the bottom feed , as Bill mentioned .. soon,,,, Ken

 

[Bill_saf]

Ken


I know you want to run a 1hp pump what gph (lph) or gpm (lpm) and what psi. Some thing to think about is the pump over whelming the valve and causing the valve to flood and are we trying to control the flooding by one of 3 things # 1 spring travel, #2 spring pressure or the thickness of the diaphragm? John hit on some thing in a round about way that I know I didnt think about a diaphragm also acts as a timing device. Ken I have Machinery's handbook # 26 I dont know if all the info are on the same pages or not. so I started reading in my book on page 151. Velocity and Acceleration, Energy, impulse and momentum, and Flow of water Through nozzles just some things to think about.

Bill

 

[russau]

Im still of the opinion that the water in ought to be pulsed before the diaphragm. The device I mentioned could be built to any size you need for the needed torque to pulse that diaphragm and thusly your water to the jig. I made several of these that used 2 -3/4 inlets and the same on the outlets to keep the device running and not get locked up by the Pelton wheel NOT at the spaced portion of the wheel.I put PSI gauges on this for repeteability and it worked just fine on my Fluidbed on my 4 inch dredge. Another friend (Glen Oates) that was on that website also built a larger one for his OP in Alaska and loved the way it worked. Just for grins try to put a valve on the supply side of this device and operate the valve quickly to see if my suggestion works . The Device I built works at what ever frequency you dial it into. "Try it , youll like it!

 

[Timberdoodle]

I have never built one, but just started to follow the thread the other day. I could be dead wrong, but I believe this type of device mainly runs on balancing the water pressure inside the diaphragm with the external atmospheric pressure force combined with the outflow speed pressure drop created when the valve is open. The springs in the other videos seem to provide more of a dampening force to keep the operation linear. I believe your valve will work under the right conditions, but will not provide much pressure and run similar to the other videos. If you remove the heavy spring and use a valve to reduce the input flow, let the diaphragm valve open fully and you should find a setting on the input water valve that you can easily use some hand force on the diaphragm to get an idea of how much spring tension is required. To get more head pressure on the outflow would probably require a higher standpipe or a sealed cover over the outside of the diaphragm that can be charged with air (like a expansion tank) Just a few thoughts. Hope they help

 

[spudnick]

Many thanks Gentlemen !!!, for the reply's, it is overwhelming to get so many ideas and thoughts to work with, from experienced and knowledgeable individuals..

Bill,
The water pump i have is a honda wx10 4 stroke, Pumps 120 litres per minute (26.4 Imp. Gal per min ) and i think it tops out at 50 psi?. Weighs only 13 lbs.
Thats what i have to work with, what i need exactly for GPM and PSI ? i am not smart enough to figure that out, except the trial and error way. ( my usual way Lol )
Good question ( control the flooding by one of 3 things ) plus ( timing device) not sure ' but makes me think..
Machinery's handbook # 26 , has different page # s than #24. Have to use my bifocals or magnifier glass to read it. Lol. Thanks Mr. Bill

russau ,
Thanks for posting again, was going to ask you about frequency, i see now, you can dial yours in..Nice..My design so far is not dialable, back to the drawing board. Lol
Not getting locked up was another concern, so my plan has a check valve on both out feed lines.
I have tried a few times to manually pulse the supply line valve, result was a pulse type movement , but only visually., may be i need another valve upstream to choke the water supply line. cut back on the supply volume . Then fast close the ball valve to simulate the action .
Looks like i have some detective work to do.. Always rewarding to solve a riddle. . Thanks again Russau

Timberdoodle,
Great to hear from you, this Think Tank is expanding for sure.
Your descriptions and wording is very good.. Amazing how we all see things the same , yet different.
-(The springs in the other videos seem to provide more of a dampening force to keep the operation linear.) - Yes, i would agree
Wow, adjustable air pressure above the diaphragm gasket, That is an interesting concept.!

I agree it should run, at a weak pulse, just need to keep tweaking it.... Then try to get some (Horse Power) out of it.. Haha

Very good idea, Timberdoodle,> ( If you remove the heavy spring and use a valve to reduce the water supply input flow, let the diaphragm valve open fully and you should find a setting on the input water valve that you can easily use some hand force on the diaphragm to get an idea of how much spring tension is required. )<

I have tried this exact procedure twice before, but not on the last few tests, may be different with the smaller out flow port , and the thinner rubber gasket i am using now. .I will add this again to my next batch testing trials.. Thanks a lot for your ideas ..very helpful....... Ken

 

[spudnick]

Pressure hold, leak down test.
This will be a short test results, from many procedures, i performed.
The tests were done with a 3/4 ' discharge port, both small disc and large, reinforced rubber, thick rubber and thin tire tube rubber, diaphragm gaskets.
Light,medium and heavy, springs
Spring pressure, supply water were varied. and shut down, leak down test, done at each change for 30 minutes, up to 1 hour.
The results were all the same as before, no pulse, and leak by, continuous water flow.
I did have air suction leak, always getting a few bubbles between changes, and a very small internal water leak down .
I re-Teflon taped a few fittings, etc, that stopped the air leak, But still a minor internal seal area leak. ( out flow from screen box )
Leak down was 2lbs PSI loss per hour @ a max 6 psi starting point. Jim was right about the unit leaking.
I did add a temporary screen box tailing extension as well.,and reinstalled the cam lock fitting at the top of stand pipe.

UP NEXT, bottom feed stand pipe, Tests..... Hang on to your Hats ! Lol

 

[spudnick]

Bottom of hutch standpipe feed, As suggested by Bill,
This test was done with only the thin rubber gasket and the lightest spring.
The stand pipe was a 3/4 " semi rigid hose, plumbed in to the bottom hutch drain valve. ( old stand pipe was left open )
Water level differential was 22 "
Cut the water supply feed by over half way closed. (better off to have a gate valve for this ), Spring compression knob set at lightest setting
Turned the water on at the other end of supply hose at wall faucet. and BINGO it was pulsing.... All by it self... Haha .. 1.5 p/p/second of time.
There was very little warer lift at the screen box,( Very little.), pressure gauge topped out at 1.5 PSI
I did try to increase spring compression, and changed the water supply flow, but that was as good as it got.. Very difficult to get exact water supply .( need a gate valve or predetermined orifice size)
I removed the clamp holding the valve , to try at different elevations, that killed it, at 3 " lower.
Conclusion,-- too much water surface area to lift, plus old stand pipe is open to air.
Up next- downsize the screen box to a 3.1/4" cup type bowl, via old stand pipe

 

[spudnick]

Screen box down size test.
I removed the screen box, placed a heavy plastic sheet on the opening, re installed the screen box. Completely sealing it off.
Only place left for water to exit was the old stand pipe. I then installed a kitchen sink strainer basket on top, to simulate a small screen box.
No other changes were done since last test. Same settings,.
Turned the supply water on at the wall faucet, and Yes, We have a Pulse with water lift action ! Nice. Lol
Any spring pressure would kill the pulse, so i Removed the top support plate and spring assembly, still pulsing !! 1.5 p/p/s @ mabe 1/8 lb pressure spikes
Added a 2 lb and a 14 lb dead weight directly on the center of the gasket, still pulsing, 1/4 psi , with increased speed. @2-2.5 p/p/s

Last test surprised me. - Timberdoodle's- atmospheric, pressure tank , type simulation Test. ( Balloon on top of the gasket) Installed top support plate.
Result- 1.75 to 2.00 p/p/s @ 1/2 psi, with a clearly stronger outflow at screen cup outflow. Very Cool for sure !!!

Stay tuned, short video coming up on these tests.

 

[spudnick]

Here is a video, showing the previous post, crappy video, But at least its short, Lol,

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Congrats, Ken, I'll bet that made you smile! The lack of obvious water lift with the old screen box is simply not enough volume of water movement on the pulse. Need much bigger diaphragm diameter, with corresponding increase in input flow to drive it. I would imagine your gasoline pump would handle that.
I also thought of the gate valve to adjust input flow....ball valves aren't sensitive enough. I'm going to have to build one of these. I have a lot of questions in my mind. One big one is the effect of increasing the size of the standpipe. I also wonder about the effect of a larger height difference between the diaphragm and the screen box. I would assume, the larger the difference, the greater the pulse lift at the box.
On the balloon effect... I think that is simply acting like an air spring.
Jim

 

[Timberdoodle]

Nice job Ken! Now that you have a working pulse it will be easier to find the right combination to get the lift and flow you need. Great build by the way!!!

 

[spudnick]

Congrats, Ken, I'll bet that made you smile! The lack of obvious water lift with the old screen box is simply not enough volume of water movement on the pulse. Need much bigger diaphragm diameter, with corresponding increase in input flow to drive it. I would imagine your gasoline pump would handle that.
I also thought of the gate valve to adjust input flow....ball valves aren't sensitive enough. I'm going to have to build one of these. I have a lot of questions in my mind. One big one is the effect of increasing the size of the standpipe. I also wonder about the effect of a larger height difference between the diaphragm and the screen box. I would assume, the larger the difference, the greater the pulse lift at the box.
On the balloon effect... I think that is simply acting like an air spring.
Jim

Thanks Jim, i was relieved, Big time. Haha. Finally getting my head around the whole thing. Once again,,I agree with ALL of your post!
I still have it set up on the shop floor. Will do a height test again. Any one else thinking of another test idea to do on it ?,, i will leave it set up for the weekend.
More Test results from yesterday:- Critical minimum height 19" , would slow down as you go lower, 14 to 12 " would kill it... Run the same at 19 to 22 "
- water volume output when running- gasket only, 1.1/4 gallons per minute @ 1/4 psi
- balloon spring, 1.1/2 gal/min @1/2 psi
The video doesn't really show the difference when using an air spring, i think it is a way more efficient spring device, covering the gasket evenly. I would seriously consider using an air bag,. It could be micro adjusted to exactly the required force needed for any application.

Yes ,larger diaphragm, larger volume, larger stand pipe, more supply.... Fine line for height, too low- loss of momentum, too high- will probably change pulse per second rate ?

MY ANALOGY OF THIS SET UP - ( Siphon pause, weight pulse unit ) Its the weight of the water flowing downward over powering the supply feed rate, , paused by sucking the gasket closed behind it, creating a surge of water supply over filling the hutch, creating a fluid bed force at screen box ,Supply water pushes the gasket back up,and kick starts the weight movement again with low psi water pressure... This is my opinion of what i see.

Well, at least we have some proven facts, and details to work with, and anyone wanting to build one has the info here for a good starting point. i am leaning towards a Power pulse unit, a controlled pressurized system..... Stay tuned,, Its not over, untill my wife says its over,. Lol ...Ken

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Yeah...I'm thinking increasing the height will increase the pulse rate. That might also affect the strength of the pulse, so increasing the height might not do much....it might be self-regulating to some extent. For testing, I would make a substantial change in height....like double, just to find out.
I think you're dead-on with your summary.
jim

 

[Bill_saf]

Ken looking good. increasing the height will increase the strength of the pulse. increasing the pulse rate with weight in any form on the diaphragm. air spring ( air bag ) will be the most forgiving Imop.

Bill

 

[spudnick]

Nice job Ken! Now that you have a working pulse it will be easier to find the right combination to get the lift and flow you need. Great build by the way!!!

Timberdoodle, Thanks for the complements !!! and yes i did do an elevation test again. Sure was glad you made the earlier post, you ideas turned into something worthwhile checking out. I believe the air bag would be more efficient , but a lot of tests would have to be done, to make an informed decision,and that takes time for sure. Lol... One negative i can think of, is getting an air leak, where a spring would be unlikely to fail. Thanks again... Ken

 

[spudnick]

Yeah...I'm thinking increasing the height will increase the pulse rate. That might also affect the strength of the pulse, so increasing the height might not do much....it might be self-regulating to some extent. For testing, I would make a substantial change in height....like double, just to find out.
I think you're dead-on with your summary.
jim

Here ya go Jim, the latest non scientific low down of the high up,. Lol and you got it with (..it might be self-regulating to some extent.)
Height differential Test. -- Starting point , 4 foot height difference , between top of screen cup output to diaphragm gasket level.
Results- 4 foot level- Turned on wall water supply, no pulse, gasket domed on top,(Pic) water flowing. (air trapped holding the gasket up ?)
Pushed on the top gasket dome, with my hand 3 times, and then it was self running, pulsing ( Priming , de-airing ? )
1.5 P/P/S , 1 gallon p/min , Small negative spike on gauge

3 foot level - 1.5 P/P/S , 1. 1/3 gal/p/min , both neg & positive needle movement on gauge.
Nice rhythm sound to the pulse

2 foot level- 1. 1/4 P/P/S , 1. 1/4 gal/p/min , positive spike on gauge needle

1 foot level - 1 P/P/S , 1. 1/4 gal/p/min , no gauge movement , very weak pulse, very weak action at screen cup
I never cut the stand pipe hose to fit each test, that also may affect the test results ? Tests were done with only the gasket itself, no springs or balloons.
And then ya start thinking , how would these tests turn out with a larger valve, and standpipe diameter ? Always leading to more questions, Haha.... Ken

 

[spudnick]

Ken looking good. increasing the height will increase the strength of the pulse. increasing the pulse rate with weight in any form on the diaphragm. air spring ( air bag ) will be the most forgiving Imop.

Bill

Thanks ! Bill, your comments are right on again. ! Well , i have too many other things on my plate that need to get done this summer. So i will only design, research, etc when i get a chance. . Probably will be winter, to put another big effort in to it. I really appreciate you hanging in there, helping out.. A Tip of the Hat and a Pat on the back to You ! .. Ken

 

[Jim in Idaho]

Many thanks, Ken! So...it looks like there may be an optimum height level. That will probably depend on the diameter of the standpipe, the diameter of the diaphragm, and the input supply. Just as a piece of information....my jig, at 110p/s, uses almost 9 gallons/minute. That's just the pulsed water...there's additional water flowing across the ragging. Obviously, that would increase with an increased pulse rate.
Jim

 

[Jim in Idaho]

One thing I was going to mention, and forgot....you have to get all the air out of the system for it to work. It's the fact that water can't be compressed that makes these jigs work. Air can be compressed, and that damps out the valve action. Air in the system , even with my mechanical jigs, has a negative effect.
Jim