4" Trevs Subbie dredge.
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  1. #1

    Oct 2013
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    4" Trevs Subbie dredge.

    Hello everyone. .
    I have been gathering parts to try to build a 4" trevs suitcase dredge. .
    And i have found a Keene P90 pump and i been trying to power a 4" suction nozzle but not getting great results. .

    Ima try to reduce all friction lose in my suction nozzle to see if i get better results.

    I have made the jet at the nozzle 1/2 " and my inlet 1" since i couldnt find 1 1/4 hose.

    My suction was strong enough for 2" rocks but it was struggling with the larger rocks.
    Looking to get the best out of it in 4" instead of running a 3".

    Let me know what ya think. .
    Thanks.

  2. #2
    us
    Oct 2009
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    I think you are going to have a heck of a hard time with that setup. First, to address the FL comment... you are massively increasing FL by dropping from 1.25" hose to 1". I know that doesnt seem like a big change, but the FL change is huge. Thats the very reason fire departments all moved from 1.5" attack lines to 1.75"

    Secondly, a P90 pump is woefully underpowered to run a 4" floating dredge. I know there is improved performance when you go subbie but I don't know if you can move enough water with it.

    Third, are you saying you are using a power nozzle? You are going to lose more power from the FL going to that (plus any bends / kinks). I would much more recommend a powerjet, and then just a regular suction hose and tip.
    principedeleon likes this.

  3. #3
    us
    May 2014
    AZ
    Beach High Banker, Sweep Jig, Whippet Dry Washer, Lobo ST, 1/2 width 2 tray Gold Cube, numerous pans, rocker box, and home made fluid bed and stream sluices.
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    I'm not a dredger but it seems to me that if you weld a rounded X across the nozzle opening with a couple of rods then that would limit the size of rocks sucked up and solve your problem (?).

    Good luck.
    Last edited by arizau; May 10, 2019 at 03:18 PM.
    If it can't be grown, it must be mined!

  4. #4
    us
    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by arizau View Post
    I'm not a dredger but it seems to me that if you weld a rounded X across the nozzle opening with a couple of rods then that would limit the size of rocks sucked up and solve your problem (?).

    Good luck.
    No, this is the wrong way to go. The entire point of making your dredge (and therefore the dredge hose diameter) larger is to naturally handle larger cobble. The more you can process through the box, the less you have to stop and remove by hand, which speeds up the total processing rate.

  5. #5

    Oct 2013
    417
    88 times
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in Enid View Post
    I think you are going to have a heck of a hard time with that setup. First, to address the FL comment... you are massively increasing FL by dropping from 1.25" hose to 1". I know that doesnt seem like a big change, but the FL change is huge. Thats the very reason fire departments all moved from 1.5" attack lines to 1.75"

    Secondly, a P90 pump is woefully underpowered to run a 4" floating dredge. I know there is improved performance when you go subbie but I don't know if you can move enough water with it.

    Third, are you saying you are using a power nozzle? You are going to lose more power from the FL going to that (plus any bends / kinks). I would much more recommend a powerjet, and then just a regular suction hose and tip.

    Okay i could always try to continue to look for a 1 1/4 hose or adapt a 1 1/2 hose on it. .

    But trying to run a power jet is not good in a subbie dredge. .

    I have ran my 6.5 hp p180 pump 3/4 with super great suction On a 6" suitcase dredge.

    Steve ran a subbie with 15 feet of 4" of hose with his sluice mounted under a frame running a 4hp pump with plenty of power.

    A suitcase dredge uses a quarter of power less atleastt.
    I have tried both setups with my 6" and i was able to run harder at 3/4 RPM then Full throttle.

    Meaning i should atleast with the p90 get a good suction @ full throttle.

    I believe there is little things like the ones you explain that are killing my flow from the pump and also in my suction nozzle welds in the bend and a non flare jet tip which is creating a backpressure.

    Im thinking of trying to bend the pipe all together in one or removing the bent pipe and testing it without the bend. .

  6. #6
    us
    Mine President, XPBC, GIH, stamp mill operator, snuffer bottle owner.

    Dec 2013
    Arcata, California
    Fisher 1212-x Fisher Gold Bug 2 Whites 4900/SP3 Rocker boxes, Keene sluices, Bazooka sluice, 2.5", 4" lowbankers, highbankers. Witch Sticks.
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    You need a suction nozzle on a subbie, a power jet will mess up recovery in the tiny sluice section, the suction nozzle gives the material a chance to stratify in the hose before hitting the box. I'd rec a 1.5"x2" pump, neck it up at the pump to run a 2" hose to the nozzle.

  7. #7

    Oct 2013
    417
    88 times
    Okay quick update. . I have found the 1 1/4 " hose. Im looking forward to make everything more effiecient before giving up. .

    Also my water pump outlet is faceing up instead to the side. .
    Dont know if that would cause a pressure lost...

    Well ima start taking one step at a time changing everything.

  8. #8
    Make America Great Again

    Apr 2013
    Oregon
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    I used a 3 1/2hp p100 pump to run a Keene 4" sub dredge using a suction nozzle with 1 1/2" hose, went from a 1 1/4 outlet on the pump and
    used the 1 1/2" lay flat hose on my 2 1/2 dredge my thinking was that larger hose would have some place to build a little more pressure.
    my 4" hose was only 6 feet long the sub just settled in behind where I was working, mostly moving overburden, then run the 2 1/2" to clean bedrock.
    I have a shop built 4" twin log powerjet that used 1/2" orifice had to drill them out a little bit bigger maybe do some experimenting.

    . my sub-dredge and the p100 it was powered by
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    .
    Last edited by winners58; May 11, 2019 at 09:33 AM.
    " A pessimist is an optimist with experience "

  9. #9

    Oct 2013
    417
    88 times
    Quote Originally Posted by winners58 View Post
    I used a 3 1/2hp p100 pump to run a Keene 4" sub dredge using a suction nozzle with 1 1/2" hose, went from a 1 1/4 outlet on the pump and
    used the 1 1/2" lay flat hose on my 2 1/2 dredge my thinking was that larger hose would have some place to build a little more pressure.
    my 4" hose was only 6 feet long the sub just settled in behind where I was working, mostly moving overburden, then run the 2 1/2" to clean bedrock.
    I have a shop built 4" twin log powerjet that used 1/2" orifice had to drill them out a little bit bigger maybe do some experimenting.

    . my sub-dredge and the p100 it was powered by
    Click image for larger version. 

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    .
    Nice build winner... .

    Im looking to use only 3 feet of hose before entering a 3 feet sluice box. .
    Not planning on digging past 4 feet of overburden.

    So in my case should i get a a 1 1/2 or the 1 1/4 outlet hose ?

    I have tried to see how it fits but there's a big gapp between both sizes.

    A quarter inch might be a lot of flow im missing out on. .

  10. #10
    us
    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-Lionberger View Post
    You need a suction nozzle on a subbie, a power jet will mess up recovery in the tiny sluice section, the suction nozzle gives the material a chance to stratify in the hose before hitting the box. I'd rec a 1.5"x2" pump, neck it up at the pump to run a 2" hose to the nozzle.

    I had to research this Trev's dredge, now I understand better. I was thinking this was just a hanging subbie, not a short hose system. Yeah, I see that the suction nozzle would be needed for this.
    N-Lionberger likes this.

  11. #11
    us
    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by principedeleon View Post
    Okay quick update. . I have found the 1 1/4 " hose. Im looking forward to make everything more effiecient before giving up. .

    Also my water pump outlet is faceing up instead to the side. .
    Dont know if that would cause a pressure lost...

    Well ima start taking one step at a time changing everything.
    No, youre not losing anything from the pump outlet pointing "up", but you do run a bigger risk of your hose kinking. Its a smoother, and better route if it can come straight out.
    principedeleon and russau like this.

  12. #12

    Oct 2013
    417
    88 times
    Im thinking of eliminating the bent pipe of the suction nozzle and bend the inlet hose instead to try not to kill the flow too much and reduce it right at the jet ..

    Also i believe ima have to open up the jet size a bit larger then 1/2 " .. the 1/2" jet could be creating too much unneeded pressure. . I was able to blast water like 25 feet away with the 1/2" nozzle. .

    Could i try using a 3/4 " jet at the nozzle? .

    Since the system is short and the pump a little under pressure maybe a 3/4 " nozzle the way to go....
    Last edited by principedeleon; May 11, 2019 at 10:15 AM.
    winners58 likes this.

  13. #13
    us
    Oct 2009
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    I would suggest sticking with commercial made suction nozzles. They have a lot of research and testing behind them already. It "could" be a very long and frustrating road to begin designing or modifying your own. There is a lot of math behind the reduction, and its primarily created with a specific pump output in mind. If it's too small, you don't get enough "push" to create the best suction. If it's too large you don't have enough pressure with the flow to create the best suction.

    ETA- as I think about this more... you may need to create your own. I don't think there has been a suction nozzle made for a 4 inch dredge being powered by a P90 pump. I would actually suggest calling Keene and talking to one of their engineers about your needs. They probably already know how a nozzle would need to be designed for that combination.
    Last edited by Jason in Enid; May 11, 2019 at 12:22 PM.
    winners58 and principedeleon like this.

  14. #14
    Make America Great Again

    Apr 2013
    Oregon
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    I have had the p90 on a two stroke my brother had one on a Honda GXH both could run a 2" nozzle
    they put out more water like for a highbanker by using high RPM's 6000-7000rpm
    might be asking too much for that pump, maybe try a 3" nozzle and hose and adapt going into your box...
    principedeleon likes this.
    " A pessimist is an optimist with experience "

  15. #15
    us
    Rob

    Oct 2012
    Kingfield, Maine
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    Hi P,
    I would increase orifice size to at least 3/4. The keene 2" log jets are actually 5/8" to better match the pump/honda engine they have been using for many years now. You mentioned having a p90 pump. Is this on a honda ghx50 engine or something else? I ask this because as Winner mentioned above the ghx50 engine is a 7000rpm pump and makes for a stronger pump than a 4 stroke running at 3600rpm.

    You can increase the outlet of the pump to 1 1/2" using an adapter and then run 1 1/2 hose. I have been using my honda ghx50/p90 this way for many years. The 1" hose is certainly killing some of the power available due to friction loss as Jason mentioned.


    Were you using a quad jet for the 6" subbie? The p90 is really pushing the limits without gaining some efficiency from a better jet. What were the 6" jet orifices?
    winners58 and principedeleon like this.

 

 
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