Equinox ID Numbers?

[darktower007]

So I see it goes from 1-40. This is odd.

Now the Etrac was odd to me too with Ferrous and conductive numbers. BUT
It seems to me with only 40 slots a lot of targets will read the same due to lack of slots it could be.


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[Xraywolf]

Very likely dumbed down in ID so as not to compete with their flagships.

Gotta be galling, even a low end detector like Ace 400 has 100, but tough to see what else they could do to release a detector with seemingly most of the capabilities of their higher end without undercutting sales.
But alot of guys are tone guys anyhow, and anyone can learn to be - So the question is, how will it fare in the tone dept ?
They might just dumb that down too to a beep and ding, if so they might as well just switch its name to the Compromise 2000 or something.

 

[Tpmetal]

I dig so much of everything that I don't think I would mind the small id range.

 

[darktower007]

I’ve horse traded so many detectors i lost count. One glaring tone.. is Minelab Etrac/CTX silver tone. That whistle is so unique its mind boggling.



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[Xraywolf]

I like VDI's, comes very much in handy when limited on time and don't have the time/inclination to dig it all.
I have got foil almost to a science on the 400 [often dig it anyways just to confirm/clean up], and have been finding alot of gold/silver rings lately [4 just yesterday] and actually call most of them in advance, literally. And this on a relatively cheap, low tech machine like the Ace 400 - Am I to believe that it will blow away a mid range Minelab on ID ?
Shaping up to be exactly the case.

That is from VDI, seems to me that simply could not be done with half the resolution, as there will be little difference if any between foil, rings and nickels.
Might or might not be a deal breaker for me, I'll wait for a healthy amount of reviews and debates before even considering it. Performance and pricepoint value is what matters - Its a given that its going to be a hobbled machine, just how hobbled remains to be seen.
Really, its only major selling point over other mid range detectors is multi freq, so we'll have to see how it stacks up against single freq detectors in the same price range that have not been intentionally hobbled by flagship legacy considerations.

 

[darktower007]

I like VDI's, comes very much in handy when limited on time and don't have the time/inclination to dig it all.
I have got foil almost to a science on the 400 [often dig it anyways just to confirm/clean up], and have been finding alot of gold/silver rings lately [4 just yesterday] and actually call most of them in advance, literally. And this on a relatively cheap, low tech machine like the Ace 400 - Am I to believe that it will blow away a mid range Minelab on ID ?
Shaping up to be exactly the case.

That is from VDI, seems to me that simply could not be done with half the resolution, as there will be little difference if any between foil, rings and nickels.
Might or might not be a deal breaker for me, I'll wait for a healthy amount of reviews and debates before even considering it. Performance and pricepoint value is what matters - Its a given that its going to be a hobbled machine, just how hobbled remains to be seen.
Really, its only major selling point over other mid range detectors is multi freq, so we'll have to see how it stacks up against single freq detectors in the same price range that have not been intentionally hobbled by flagship legacy considerations.

Well stated. I need to start digging all foil signals with the max. Hopefully it will pay off


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[Xraywolf]

Well stated. I need to start digging all foil signals with the max. Hopefully it will pay off

Really should, as often as possible.
I almost passed on a 20k gold ring just yesterday because of low VDI I was almost sure was foil.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/beach-shallow-water/559836-7-ring-day.html

But I still attach importance to the option of VDI hunting to be available if needed, the more accurate and the more resolution the better.
The 400 is almost uncanny at times with its accuracy, for a hotrod, ballyhooed Minelab to be smoked by it on ID just doesn't seem right.

No sense getting into detailed speculation on a machine not even released for sale yet, but this will be a factor for me next spring when I am in the market for another land/water hybrid to back up my trusty AT pro.

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

I thought it was -10 to 40, like the Safari is with the negatives being iron responses......?

But yeah, its gonna be a sound hunter imo.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

going by US coins

40-unknown large conductors.
39-38 large dollars
37-halves
36-silver quarters
35-clad quarters
34-silver dimes
33-clad dimes
32-memorial penny
31-wheat penny
30-28-zinc penny
28-26-indian
25-14-aluminum tabs
14-13-nickels
13-12-beaver tails
11-01-foil
0 to -9 iron

Just a guess...really!

 

[chet470]

I run a Minelab Xterra in dirt which has a (-8) - 48 range VDI and a Minelab Excalliber for beach which is all tone. Is the VDI a handicap? I haven't really run into situations where the VDI on the Xterra has been a handicap. If you learn your machines tones that should be the primary indicator as to what to dig and what not to dig. I hardly ever dig junk with the Xterra.

 

[Xraywolf]

I run a Minelab Xterra in dirt which has a (-8) - 48 range VDI and a Minelab Excalliber for beach which is all tone. Is the VDI a handicap? I haven't really run into situations where the VDI on the Xterra has been a handicap. If you learn your machines tones that should be the primary indicator as to what to dig and what not to dig. I hardly ever dig junk with the Xterra.

Apparently for target ID to be of any real use on this coming machine, you are going to have to learn tones - Question is, is that going to be hobbled too, to give incentive for people to still buy Etracs ?

Seems to me they are really getting to the point where they ought to retire some of their line, that would take away some of the need to intentionally hobble new machines so as not to compete with themselves.

 

[Iron Buzz]

But alot of guys are tone guys anyhow, and anyone can learn to be - So the question is, how will it fare in the tone dept ?
They might just dumb that down too to a beep and ding, if so they might as well just switch its name to the Compromise 2000 or something.

Well, they just lost points for me. I am a Deus user and work the tones all day long. One of the things that was attracting me to the Equinox was the hope of more accurate IDs so that I'm not having to rely quite so much on tone. The eTrac and CTX are known for their IDs, and Minelab, in their marketing documents (linked to in other threads in this forum) seems to be implying that the 'Nox will be similarly accurate. But if they're compressing their IDs down to 40, they're going to have a hard time getting me away from my Deus. I'm hoping for something better than the Deus, not less than or equal to it.

 

[smokeythecat]

I go with tones, and vdi as a backup. Won't be buying any more detectors for a long time.

 

[Xraywolf]

Well, they just lost points for me. I am a Deus user and work the tones all day long. One of the things that was attracting me to the Equinox was the hope of more accurate IDs so that I'm not having to rely quite so much on tone. The eTrac and CTX are known for their IDs, and Minelab, in their marketing documents (linked to in other threads in this forum) seems to be implying that the 'Nox will be similarly accurate. But if they're compressing their IDs down to 40, they're going to have a hard time getting me away from my Deus. I'm hoping for something better than the Deus, not less than or equal to it.

Tough to believe at its price point that it was even conceived to compete with Deus, probably more the AT line.
Deus has just got too much going for it to be seriously affected.

I'm considering it because I'm in the water alot and need a backup for my AT, never know when a machine might fail, especially when they are dunked alot.
I'm intrigued by multi freq, have never used one, so that in 1 package is interesting.
VDI in the water is a non factor, half the time you can't see the display anyhow ,,, But on land, I do like a visual reference, then I can use my judgement what to do.

I've said it before, it looks like the lowly Ace 400 is set to blow the ballyhooed and much awaited Equinox completely away on target ID, and that is just not going to sit well with many folks - Especially since it is being done just for the sake of keeping their legacy units on the shelves a bit longer.
I don't even think it would cost anything more to produce a unit with 100 units of resolution vs 40, but I would rather pay a bit more for that than buy a hobbled, compromise unit.
We'll see, this and other forums are going to light up when they get in peoples hands.

 

[Truth]

Well stated. I need to start digging all foil signals with the max. Hopefully it will pay off


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I love my Max


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[sgoss66]

But alot of guys are tone guys anyhow, and anyone can learn to be - So the question is, how will it fare in the tone dept ?
They might just dumb that down too to a beep and ding, if so they might as well just switch its name to the Compromise 2000 or something.

Well, that's certainly not going to happen. We already know it has numerous audio options -- fully adjustable tone breaks, adjustable ferrous tone volume/pitch, adjustable non-ferrous tone volume/pitch, the option to run 1, 2, 5, or multi (50) tones...etc.

Some of your posts in this thread don't make a lot of sense to me. You've already concluded that your Ace 400 will be a superior ID machine (that the Equinox will be "smoked" by the Ace 400, in your words), that its a "given" Minelab has purposely "hobbled" the Equinox so as to make it a mediocre performer, that there's no way it will compete with the Deus, etc. etc. etc.

You seem pretty certain of how this particular machine will perform, and how well it will perform compared to other units, when it hasn't even been released yet. Not sure how you can be so certain of a machine you have never used...

You say "the only thing it has to offer over other mid-range machines" is multi-frequency. First off, to me multi-frequency is HUGE, but secondly, leaving that aside, how many mid-range machines are waterproof? How many offer switchable frequency, on the fly? How many offer gold prospecting ability with on-board, available frequency as high as 40 kHz? How many have built-in wireless?

Yes, SOME machines out there have SOME of these features. How many have all? And that's not even DISCUSSING the multi-frequency option, the one aspect of coin/relic detectors that Minelab is legendary for...

Anyway, you are so certain that this machine will be "poor" with respect to VDI. Which to me, makes little sense. There is much more to ID of course than just "digits," but let's just talk about digits, since that's what you want to focus on. First off, I have never swung an Ace 400, but I'll talk about the Gold Bug Pro, since that's a machine I'm familiar with. The Pro has 100 segments of ID, 0 to 99. Just like your Ace. Excellent, right? It would "smoke," to use your words, the Equinox, right? Well, let's break that down. 0-40 is the iron range on the Gold Bug Pro. On the Equinox, the iron range is -10 to 0. I don't think you will be missing many gold rings because the Equinox only has 10 units of separation in the iron range, instead of 40. OK, so now, then, for non-ferrous tones, we have 59 available for the Pro (40 to 99), and 40 available for the Equinox (1 to 40). But even that is not totally true. On the Gold Bug Pro, I NEVER dug a good target above roughly 87-88. Both silver and clad quarters were in the 86-87 range, and while I never dug a silver half or silver dollar with it, I think the highest reading expected for either of those two coins is 89. So, there are 10 numbers "above" the highest-reading U.S. coin (90 to 99) that will virtually NEVER be an ID you'd dig -- it's largely iron wrap-around. So, instead of 59 units of "usable" non-ferrous ID numbers on the Pro, it's in essence really down to 49. So then, a more fair/accurate accurate comparison -- assuming that "40" on the Equinox will usually be iron wrap-around (similar to other Minelab machines) -- it's now 49 segments of "important" VDI on the Gold Bug Pro, 40 to 89 (again, a "100-number" machine), versus 39 on the Equinox, 1-39. I would assume the Ace 400 is "similar," though maybe not entirely. But -- at least compared to a Gold Bug Pro, I don't think you'd say 49 non-ferrous-range numbers "smokes" 39.

Take it a step further...what if even though you have that "100 segments" of ID on the Ace 400, it's only accurate down to 6" or 7", before the numbers start jumping/bouncing within a several digit range due to depth -- to the point of becoming inaccurate? Meanwhile, what if that "pitifully small range" of 40 non-ferrous numbers remain accurate to 8" or 9" or 10" deep on the Equinox? Does that count for anything?

FINALLY, let's just say that the Ace 400 has, I don't know, let's be generous, 50 ID numbers all concentrated through the mid-tone range from foil up to, say, zinc penny, where 95% of all gold will fall. Now -- with an infinite number of pieces of gold jewelry, infinite number of sizes and shapes (small rings, big rings, earrings, pendants, etc.), a HUGE number of alloys, different purity values, etc. etc. etc., how exactly does having "resolution" in numbers through the mid tone range let you dig ONLY gold, and avoid trash? How does having 50, versus say, 25, units of separation allow you to say, for instance "49, that's a gold ring, but 50 nope, no way, that's a pull tab." There aren't gold rings that would air test at 49 OR 50? It's largely a nonsense argument. That argument WOULD make more sense, if you are talking something like coins -- where most of them will read fairly consistently in an air test due to consistency of size and composition/alloy of the coin. But even then, I have seen Mercury dimes, for instance, that air test at slightly different digits of ID, and the same thing with wheat cents, etc. etc. And that is AIR TEST. That's not COUNTING what different soil types/composition, etc. will do to ID numbers of these objects when buried.

Bottom line here is, what you are saying is not well-reasoned, and it comes across as simple negative-Nancy hating on a unit that HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED, yet. Obviously, you are free to do that if you like. But, at the same time, there's another side of the argument as well -- and that should probably be included here for posterity's sake. Thus my post.

We shall see. But I suspect the Equinox will be a very, very good machine, and that most of your assertions here will be rendered nonsense.

Steve

 

[Xraywolf]

Lol, well thanks for that breakdown.
Lets hope most pans out as true, alot of assertions for a unit that HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED, yet.
Waterproof I left out of the equation as a pretty obvious + - Hopefully it doesn't have the fatal problems of the MX sport, no reason to presume that at this point, but we all know, hybrid land/water machines are prone to problems.
Yes, I think the 400 will smoke it on visual ID, hard to see how it couldn't, your laborious counterpoints aside.
I can call out targets down to 3" or so with 80% accuracy, I simply would not be able to do that with half the resolution.

Guys have been talking all over the place about the inevitable and intentional [and perhaps necessary] dumbing down of this machine in order to lesson competition with its own high end machines, hardly a revelation and I'm hardly the only guy speculating about it.

If it was just a lighter, more modern 3030, then obviously they could kiss their flagship goodbye. They tout its similarities, you and I both know there is going to be a flip side, more than just a lack of GPS. There has to be tradeoffs [compromises] to sell it at 1/3 the cost of the 3030.
Depth + ID seem like the obvious places to start, as those are among the most sought after features of any detector, and something Etrac and 3030 excel at [from what I have heard]

 

[sgoss66]

I sure wish you would READ my "laborious counterpoints" and then offer a well-reasoned refutation, since you obviously still think the Ace will "smoke" the Equinox on "visual ID."

How, exactly, does having "extra" numbers in the mid range automatically mean more "skill" at discerning gold versus mid-tone trash?

How does having more numbers automatically mean that the numbers are accurate/stable, and not bouncing two or three digits on each sweep (which sort of NEGATES having the extra digits, right?)

How does having more numbers mean that these numbers are accurate/stable TO THE SAME DEPTH as on another machine with fewer numbers?

If you have good arguments for these questions, I'd love to hear them. Otherwise, saying "I think this" doesn't do a whole lot for the conversation...

And by the way, just because there may be more than one person assuming that Minelab has "dumbed down" the Equinox, doesn't make it true. I offered what I believe to be a solid counterpoint as to why that may NOT be the case, on a couple of other forums, but I won't rehash it here. I don't think it will change minds that are already convinced. Let's just say that price doesn't always reflect capability, especially when you find yourself losing "market share" to a number of very solid competitors producing very high-performing machines at prices much lower than your own. At that point, if you want to remain viable and win back market share, you better produce a higher-performing machine than your competition, or offer it at a better price, or, as a BEST option, do BOTH... And I believe THAT is what Minelab has attempted to do, with the Equinox.

We shall see...but I have learned through experience not to underestimate Minelab, ESPECIALLY Minelab multi-frequency...

Steve

 

[Xraywolf]

I'll have to let you sort it out and claim victory, I honestly don't have the time to make point by point speculative counter replies on this UNRELEASED MACHINE.
I said what I said, I think what I think, and you can make whatever you want out of it.

If I was a betting man, which I am, I'd bet right now the 400 [in my hands] will smoke it, and smoke it bad, on visual ID.

Don't mean to be rude and I read as much as I can of your replies, been averaging 12-14 hr shifts, just dog bone tired at this point and don't feel like reading, typing or even thinking.

So you've speculated about its strong points, how to you think, as an obvious Minelab guy, your etrac and 3030 will be superior to it ?

 

[sgoss66]

Fair enough, Xraywolf. I am certain that the 400 is a good machine, and in the right hands, can be an excellent performer. I am sure you are very proficient at it; that's obvious, given your finds/success. All I'm saying is that I don't think Minelab "dumbed down" or "hindered" this machine, performance-wise. Bells and whistles? Sure, there is more they could do. The CTX has numerous "bells and whistles" (GPS, for example), and even some performance-enhancing information that it provides (target trace, etc.) that is not included on the Equinox. So, if that is what you mean by "hindered," or "dumbed-down," then sure -- Minelab left room to take this new technology they call Multi-IQ and build a future "flagship" out of it. BUT, performance-wise, I don't think it will appear to anyone to be "dumbed down," when compared to any other machine out there, including the Deus, once the ground truth starts to filter in.

I expect this machine to be a high performer, even compared to an E-Trac or 3030. I think, though, that its BIGGEST strength will lie somewhat in a slightly different area; where the Explorers, E-Trac, and CTX stand out as DEEP COIN hunters (among other things), I think the Equinox will stand out as an excellent performer in trashy environments. Not that a CTX is not good at target separation, and not that the Equinox won't be very skilled at deep coin hunting. But I think to some degree they will be "complementary machines," as opposed to directly competing with each other. The real wildcard, to me, is Multi-IQ. If this technology is everything that the designers/engineers at Minelab claim it will be, then it may even match or -- POSSIBLY -- exceed the E-Trac/CTX at deep coin ID. The reason I think that, is because everything I have heard that was the focus of the engineers was ACCURATE, STABLE target ID, partially due to a technological advance they innovated that allows better handling of the ground mineral matrix. That is my understanding of what the goal was, though obviously that includes some "reading between the lines" based on what information they have chosen to release thus far. Anyway, with better ground handling, which leads to better ID, your natural result of course is improved depth. Less ground effects "muddying the water" means better/more stable ID, even on deeper targets, and better overall deep target detection. SO, from that angle, I think the jury is really out, as to exactly "how good" Multi-IQ will be, but I expect it to be no "slouch." Some surprises might even be in store, in terms of it's deep-coin ID capabilities (I'm looking at you, FBS/FBS2...)

Just my thoughts; not trying to be too confrontational...

Steve