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Thread: EMI or Ground balance?

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  1. #1
    us
    Jun 2018
    Southern California
    Equinox 600
    19
    13 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    EMI or Ground balance?

    I know to noise cancel before hunting in each program because of phones ,power lines ext. But beyond that how do you tell the difference if chatter is from the ground, making it necessary to GB or its just EMI? Just trying to learn when GB is necessary. HH



    i

  2. #2
    Charter Member

    Apr 2013
    N.E. Ohio
    XP Deus, NOX 600
    1,348
    1203 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Well if the chatter continues when you're not swinging the coil its EMI....ground balancing will.do nothing to help with the chatter.....lowering the sensitivity may help.

  3. #3
    Charter Member
    us
    Rook

    Nov 2013
    Mississippi
    XP Deus
    6,014
    6902 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    It's also a good idea to carry a backup machine to try if EMI is happening. Some machines handle it better than others.
    MRS GOLD likes this.
    When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

  4. #4

    Nov 2015
    263
    302 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Wait, the EQ has 19 different noise cancel channels interesting, I'll be checking all of them for changes to TID.

  5. #5
    us
    Jun 2018
    Southern California
    Equinox 600
    19
    13 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesUpstateNY View Post
    Wait, the EQ has 19 different noise cancel channels interesting, I'll be checking all of them for changes to TID.
    Thanks

  6. #6
    us
    Jun 2018
    Southern California
    Equinox 600
    19
    13 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    thanks

  7. #7
    us
    Jun 2018
    Southern California
    Equinox 600
    19
    13 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedyoh View Post
    Well if the chatter continues when you're not swinging the coil its EMI....ground balancing will.do nothing to help with the chatter.....lowering the sensitivity may help.
    Thanks

  8. #8
    us
    Jun 2018
    Southern California
    Equinox 600
    19
    13 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by rook3434 View Post
    It's also a good idea to carry a backup machine to try if EMI is happening. Some machines handle it better than others.

    Thanks got it

  9. #9
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2015
    Near Ground Zero for Insanity
    XP Deus with HF Coils and Mi6 Pinpointer/ML Equinox 600/800/ML GPX 4800/Garrett ATX/Fisher F75 DST/Tek Delta/Whites MXT/Garrett Carrot/Piranha Relic Shovel
    3,238
    4528 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesUpstateNY View Post
    Wait, the EQ has 19 different noise cancel channels interesting, I'll be checking all of them for changes to TID.
    Should have practically no impact on TID even though the channels imply different transmission frequencies, that is really not the case with Multi IQ. The TID is post processed and does not vary appreciably between search profile modes despite the change in multi IQ frequency weighting. You will, however, see TID vary with frequency, somewhat, when running in single frequency mode amongst the various single frequencies, similar to the Deus.
    "The future ain't what it used to be..."

  10. #10

    Nov 2015
    263
    302 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by vferrari View Post
    Should have practically no impact on TID even though the channels imply different transmission frequencies, that is really not the case with Multi IQ. The TID is post processed and does not vary appreciably between search profile modes despite the change in multi IQ frequency weighting. You will, however, see TID vary with frequency, somewhat, when running in single frequency mode amongst the various single frequencies, similar to the Deus.
    We shall see, I mapped an Se Pro across the 11 channels and TID changed significantly from channel 1 to 11. Several TID points difference. Somewhere I have the mapping saved.

  11. #11
    Charter Member

    Apr 2013
    N.E. Ohio
    XP Deus, NOX 600
    1,348
    1203 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesUpstateNY View Post
    We shall see, I mapped an Se Pro across the 11 channels and TID changed significantly from channel 1 to 11. Several TID points difference. Somewhere I have the mapping saved.
    Could that be because your "forcing" a channel to be used that's less than ideal? Causing signal processing "errors"?

  12. #12
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2015
    Near Ground Zero for Insanity
    XP Deus with HF Coils and Mi6 Pinpointer/ML Equinox 600/800/ML GPX 4800/Garrett ATX/Fisher F75 DST/Tek Delta/Whites MXT/Garrett Carrot/Piranha Relic Shovel
    3,238
    4528 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesUpstateNY View Post
    We shall see, I mapped an Se Pro across the 11 channels and TID changed significantly from channel 1 to 11. Several TID points difference. Somewhere I have the mapping saved.
    That may be the case, but I have found a nickel to be 13 regardless of emi channel selected and regardless of mode. I am not overly focused on tids though, because the audio is the key. If I had my druthers, I'd have about 5 tid numbers and 50 tones. My experience is that ML tried to make the Equinox seamless to the user experience (as far as TIDs are concerned) regardless of what EMI channel or search profile is selected. Seems a little in the weeds to go there, but I would be interested if you found anything significant once you have it all mapped out. When you have it figured out, you can find me at the beach looking for targets... ;0
    "The future ain't what it used to be..."

  13. #13

    Nov 2015
    263
    302 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedyoh View Post
    Could that be because your "forcing" a channel to be used that's less than ideal? Causing signal processing "errors"?
    No if that were true the TID changes would be random. Instead the TID steadily decreases as I change the noise channel from 1 to 11. If you connect an Explorer to an oscilloscope and run a noise cancel you can watch the frequency shift a tad each time the channel changes.

    I tested a Barber Dime on all 11 noise channels TWICE and I got the same results on both runs. Here's the data.

    Channel 1 - 03/30
    Channel 2 - 03/29
    Channel 3 - 03/29
    Channel 4 - 04/28
    Channel 5 - 04/28
    Channel 6 - 04/28 to 29
    Channel 7 - 04/28 to 29
    Channel 8 - 04/28 to 05/28
    Channel 9 - 05/28
    Channel 10 - 05/28
    Channel 11 - 05/28

  14. #14
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2015
    Near Ground Zero for Insanity
    XP Deus with HF Coils and Mi6 Pinpointer/ML Equinox 600/800/ML GPX 4800/Garrett ATX/Fisher F75 DST/Tek Delta/Whites MXT/Garrett Carrot/Piranha Relic Shovel
    3,238
    4528 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by MRS GOLD View Post
    I know to noise cancel before hunting in each program because of phones ,power lines ext. But beyond that how do you tell the difference if chatter is from the ground, making it necessary to GB or its just EMI? Just trying to learn when GB is necessary. HH



    i
    You have already got pretty good advice. More specifically, if you hear noise with the coil in the air, then it is EMI. First thing to check is to make sure you don't have your cell phone in a pocket where it is close to the control head. If you can, put your phone in airplane mode. If the source is unknown or you cannot control it (e.g., power lines), consider running another EMI noise cancel just in case it did not catch the quietest channel on the first go round. The auto noise cancel process on the Equinox is not bad, but it doesn't always choose the quietest channel, that is where the 800's manual channel setting comes in handy. The next step is to gradually lower sensitivity to quiet the chatter down. Don't worry about losing too much depth, the Equinox is plenty sensitive even down to around 15. The key is getting the machine to run quiet. No sense in overdriving the sensitivity if you can't hear through the chatter. Sacrifice an inch or so in raw depth by lowering sensitivity enough to let you hear the targets. With the Equinox sometimes less is more. Minimize fiddling too much with the default settings and don't overdrive the Equinox by running sensitivity higher than it needs to be. The default setting of 20 is pretty good. Running it somewhere between 17 and 23 should give you plenty of performance.

    Ground noise is differentiated from EMI when you swing the coil. Specifically, it shows up noticeably if you are in all metal mode (the horseshoe button) and you are getting a lot of high negative numbers and ferrous grunts on each pass. Use your pinpointer to confirm you are not swinging over a bed of nails. What you are hearing is ground feedback from the ferrous oxide mineralization in the soil. That is telling you to do a ground balance. If you have a lot of mineralization or finding you have to frequently ground balance, then go ahead and shift into ground balance tracking mode. There is little downside to using tracking. I would avoid using tracking where there is little mineralization for the tracking algorithm to grab onto (e.g., dry sand beach). In that case tracking will not work well and it is also unnecessary. HTH

    btw - have you told your husband the Equinox arrived yet or are you just getting some swings in on it on the QT. lol.
    jdiggs_treasure likes this.
    "The future ain't what it used to be..."

  15. #15
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2015
    Near Ground Zero for Insanity
    XP Deus with HF Coils and Mi6 Pinpointer/ML Equinox 600/800/ML GPX 4800/Garrett ATX/Fisher F75 DST/Tek Delta/Whites MXT/Garrett Carrot/Piranha Relic Shovel
    3,238
    4528 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesUpstateNY View Post
    No if that were true the TID changes would be random. Instead the TID steadily increased as I increased the noise channel from 1 to 11. If you connect an Explorer to an oscilloscope and run a noise cancel you can watch the frequency shift a tad each time the channel changes.

    I tested a Barber Dime on all 11 noise channels TWICE and I got the same results on both runs. Here's the data.

    Channel 1 - 03/30
    Channel 2 - 03/29
    Channel 3 - 03/29
    Channel 4 - 04/28
    Channel 5 - 04/28
    Channel 6 - 04/28 to 29
    Channel 7 - 04/28 to 29
    Channel 8 - 04/28 to 05/28
    Channel 9 - 05/28
    Channel 10 - 05/28
    Channel 11 - 05/28
    Well, at least you don't have to worry about the FE number variation with Equinox - lol. Looks like the CO number barely changed. I am not sure you are going to like the simplicity of the Equinox TID scale. This is not going to be deep silver monster with perfect TID's. You will also likely get frustrated with the bottle caps and pull tabs, until you figure out how to deal with them (well there is not much you can do about the pull tabs, but the bottle caps can be unmasked for what they are based on the audio)
    Last edited by vferrari; Jul 12, 2018 at 10:36 PM.
    "The future ain't what it used to be..."

 

 
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