INPUT NEEDED -- Regarding Counter-Weight system for Equinox shafts... - Page 2
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Thread: INPUT NEEDED -- Regarding Counter-Weight system for Equinox shafts...

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  1. #16
    us
    Feb 2015
    Equinox 800, MXT All Pro
    391
    1006 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by fuceye View Post
    your concept of a counter weight to off set the weight of a coil is useful only when the equinox is held static. adding the swinging motion creates a counter pendulum action
    90 degrees to the shaft. this causes the edges of the coil to dip to the earth on the trailing end of the swing. this adds needed twisting effort to keep the coil perpendicular to the ground. the s-bend shaft creates a damping effect resulting in less fatigue through out the swing cycle.
    traditionally this s-bend was put between the coil and the handle of the detector. in your case you could put the bend behind the elbow. in order to compact the size of the product a shaper angle say 90 degrees with your counter weight @ the end will accomplish multiple results.
    research counter weights on compound bows to grasp the effect I have in mind.
    I agree that a counterweight system would only benefit if coupled with S-Shaft. Before a counter weight can be properly utilized, the swing torque of the Nox must be corrected first, otherwise you are just adding more torquing to the swing. This requires an S-Shaft. I've tested a primitive counterweight here, and while it initially balances the coil weight, when you start swinging, it torques worse than with no counterweight. After a while, you are fighting to keep the coil parallel with the ground, and fatigue sets in much quicker. Spring chickens won't notice this kind of stuff as much, but the older you get, the more you appreciate a balanced machine, which the Nox is not.

    Even better than counterweights, IMO, would simply be an S-Shaft. Once you eliminate the torque from swinging, there is no need for counter balancing on the Nox an add more weight overall. I would pay good money for a White's style S middle shaft that fits the Nox perfectly. I know a lot of people that would.

  2. #17
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    tomtom --

    Yep, that would be what I was thinking -- the counterweights would be an "option," for anyone who desires them. There are some that do NOT want counterweights, and some that do.

    As for "non-trivial," so far, unless one idea I'm working on will work, it would take 3 fittings -- a male in one end of the counterweight tube (to fit in the female connector in the shaft), then a female at the other end of the counterweight, and then a threaded end cap. Then the cost of the tube, the lead, plus a thin profit and shipping cost, and you are easily up to $40 per weight; $30 maybe, if shipped with the shaft and without the lead.

    The issue is, I'm too small of an operation to have custom pieces, like the fittings, produced by injection molding. Injection-molded parts are CHEAP, AFTER the molds are created. The issue is, mold costs run well into the thousands; last time I checked to have parts made with injection molding, quotes were $5000 to $7000 for the molds to be produced!

    SO, that leaves me with two choices, in a case like this. Find fittings that work with my design that have already been created, such that the molds already exist. Then, the parts cost "cents." Otherwise, have each one individually machined using CNC machining -- and thus, much higher cost. I have searched for fittings that already exist, but there are no fittings, for example, that screw into a 22.15mm tube on one side (the upper shaft), and "slip fit" for epoxying into a 35mm tube (the counterweight). That's a custom piece, that is not going to already have a mold in existence somewhere. So, it must be machined, since I can't afford mold fees. That's why using PVC would be cheaper -- fittings are readily available and cheap. The negative? It's not aesthetically pleasing, and that bothers me. I like a polished/professional look for products I sell...

    Thanks!

    Steve

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
    What do you estimate the "non-trivial" amount would be? If someone is going to spend the money for a full carbon rod, going with a matching counterweight housing probably wouldn't break the bank.

    Maybe offer it as an deluxe option?
    Last edited by sgoss66; Dec 18, 2018 at 02:50 PM.

  3. #18
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    fuceye,

    OK, now I get what you were saying about the bend. I'm trying to work my mind through the physics of what you are saying about a counter-pendulum action. There would be "momentum" to overcome, with a heavier machine, especially if swinging at a fast speed. But this idea of twisting of the coil, I am not familiar with. I am not saying it's not there; obviously this discussion/debate has been carried out before in straight vs. S-shafts, but I can't say I've felt it. I hunted with Minelab Explorers for about years, which were "s-shafts," and then switched to the CTX 3030 and now the Equinox, which are of course both straight. I don't notice any of the "coil twist" when going from the Explorers to the E-Trac, but not saying it's not there.

    Interesting thoughts...which I'll ponder...

    Thanks!

    Steve

    Quote Originally Posted by fuceye View Post
    your concept of a counter weight to off set the weight of a coil is useful only when the equinox is held static. adding the swinging motion creates a counter pendulum action
    90 degrees to the shaft. this causes the edges of the coil to dip to the earth on the trailing end of the swing. this adds needed twisting effort to keep the coil perpendicular to the ground. the s-bend shaft creates a damping effect resulting in less fatigue through out the swing cycle.
    traditionally this s-bend was put between the coil and the handle of the detector. in your case you could put the bend behind the elbow. in order to compact the size of the product a shaper angle say 90 degrees with your counter weight @ the end will accomplish multiple results.
    research counter weights on compound bows to grasp the effect I have in mind.
    Last edited by sgoss66; Dec 18, 2018 at 02:50 PM.

  4. #19
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    Quote Originally Posted by smokeythecat View Post
    Adding that much weight would kill it for me. I can't do heavy machines anymore.
    smokeythecat,

    Point well taken; it would CERTAINLY only be an "optional accessory," as there are a lot of people that prefer the overall weight being light, versus trying to achieve "balance" through additional weight.

    Thanks!

    Steve

  5. #20
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    Echoplex --

    As I was saying to fuceye, this "twisting" is not something I'm familiar with, as I have not felt such "torquing."

    I actually have the opposite issue. I am tall, and take long sweeps of the coil, and so I am purposely trying to "torque" the coil as I approach the end of my swing. I WANT the coil to "turn outward" near the end of my swings, to counteract the otherwise natural tendency of the coil to "elevate," and "turn inward" as you get out toward the end of the swing (if what I'm saying makes sense -- i.e. the "grandfather clock-like" pendulum motion/coil path that occurs, if you are not deliberate to keep the coil flat and low to the ground).

    To keep it low to the ground AND parallel, through the end of the swing, I actually worked (early on, when I was learning the hobby) to learn to gradually turn my wrist "counter-clockwise" as I move toward the left-hand side of the sweep -- to gradually turn the coil "outward," and then gradually "clockwise" as I move toward the right-hand side of the sweep -- again, to gradually turn the coil "outward," to counteract the natural tendency for the coil to do the opposite (turn "inward") when one employs a (not correct) pendulum-like sweep path. What I describe is the attempt to fight that "pendulum-like" sweep, so as to keep the coil "level" and "low to the ground." And so it's hard for me to relate to any "torqueing" being described, as a result of a straight shaft vs. an S-shaft...

    Anyway, I do hear you, on the S-Shaft; like I was saying to fuceye, I have seen this debate before, and so for those who love the S-Shaft, I'd love to build one. It sounds like a pretty daunting challenge, though!

    Thanks!

    Steve
    Last edited by sgoss66; Dec 20, 2018 at 01:32 AM.
    Echoplex likes this.

  6. #21
    us
    Feb 2007
    OHIO
    156
    118 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    id love a carbon fiber shaft with an S bend in it. I bet it would be very hard to build. not sure it would help but who knows.

    I hear you, on the S-Shaft; like I was saying to fuceye, I have seen this debate before, and so for those who love the S-Shaft, I'd love to build one. It sounds like a pretty daunting challenge, though!

    Thanks!

    Steve[/QUOTE]
    WILD BILL

  7. #22
    us
    Aug 2015
    Montana
    Goldmonster, SDC 2300, etrac
    278
    956 times
    Metal Detecting
    last thing anybody wants or needs is more weight. Buy a bungee setup for $25 or fab your own for less, problem solved...…….

  8. #23
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    oneguy --

    I appreciate the sentiment, and it's the same thing smokeythecat says. This is why I will be offering them as an OPTION, not as part of the "standard package" with the shafts.

    But, to say "the last thing anybody wants or needs is more weight," I would beg to differ. I have MANY customers ASKING for me to provide them with counterweights.

    I totally get that many folks want the machine as light as possible. And from that perspective, I offer that. With my complete shaft system, and no counterweights added, the EQX will be light -- roughly 2.75 pounds, versus 3 pounds with the stock Minelab shaft.

    On the other hand, some folks are not pleased with the balance of the Equinox, and have stated so publicly (and also many have done so privately, to me, over the past several months). And so, I am seeking a way to help solve that problem, for these folks -- hence my work on the counterweights. Many have expressed interest in this type of solution -- even though it adds OVERALL weight to the machine, it redistributes the weight such that balance is achieved, and balance is a very comfortable thing.

    I know the counterweights are not for EVERYONE; that's why they are an option. Harnesses are not for everyone, either. I used one for a little while with my Explorer, while recovering from a bout of "tennis elbow." I HATED that thing! So I'm simply trying to please as many customers as possible -- the "I want it as light as it can be" crowd, AND the "I want it balanced" crowd. I guess the "I want an S-Shaft" subset of users are the group I'm having the most trouble figuring out how I might please...

    Thanks!

    Steve

  9. #24
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    Quote Originally Posted by basstrackerman View Post
    id love a carbon fiber shaft with an S bend in it. I bet it would be very hard to build. not sure it would help but who knows.


    Yep, hard to build, indeed. Even if I were to get the carbon-fiber supplier to sell me an "S-shaped tube," and then go from there, that does NOT solve the difficulty. That's one hurdle, yes. BUT -- jumping that hurdle, and then you only open a whole NEW can of worms -- such as, what ANGLE do you want the handle (within the S-curve) to lie at?

    This was the whole debate happening when Minelab built the E-Trac. Many complained about wrist pain using the Explorer, because of the "wrong" handle angle of the Explorer. So Minelab tweaked/adjusted that "handle angle," when designing the E-Trac, to please folks. It worked for some, not others. For me personally, I used the Explorer series for 7 years. And eventually, my wrist "got used to" that uncomfortable handle angle (as much as is possible). Anyway, with my wrist and hand and forearm muscles then optimized to tolerate that Explorer handle angle, I had an interesting experience.

    Right before a trip to the beach, my Explorer died, leaving me with no multi-freq. unit to tackle the wet salt sand/surf with. So I borrowed a hunting buddy's E-Trac for that trip, with its "improved" handle angle. And guess what? I started experiencing the EXACT same wrist pain I had, when I started out with the Explorer! What was supposed to be a "better" angle (and maybe it IS), was NOT better, for someone whose wrist/hand/arm was used to swinging an EXPLORER, and ITS handle angle, for all that time!


    Things like this are why I would not want to touch an S-shaft with a 10-foot pole! I work hard to have my customers "happy" with what I build them. The last thing I'd want, is a whole subset of customers angry with me, reporting that I made the handle angle "wrong!"


    Point being "right" or "wrong" is relative in this type of case -- as it depends upon the individual.

    Steve
    Last edited by sgoss66; Dec 19, 2018 at 02:38 AM.

  10. #25
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    Everyone --

    After a couple of days of thinking, partially shaped by feedback from many folks (thanks to all) -- I believe I am very close to finalizing the design for the counterweigh system, enough to order parts for prototype testing. My plan is to produce the counterweights from 35mm O.D. x 33mm I.D. carbon-fiber tubes. They will screw into the butt-end of the shaft via threaded connectors, and will be capped by a threaded end cap. The threaded end cap will allow for easy addition/removal of weight, as the customer desires. I will also be purchasing a supply of heavy-duty ziplock bags, which will be of roughly the same diameter as the inside of the carbon-fiber tube. The bags will be of various heights -- to accommodate several different amounts of weight (lead pellets). I will ship either WITH lead included, or without, depending upon customer desire. I plan to supply 2" tall bags (to accommodate roughly 8 - 10 oz. of weight), 3" tall bags (to accommodate roughly 12 to 15 oz. of weight), and 6" tall bags (to accommodate roughly 24-30 oz. weight).

    Using 35mm O.D. tubes, the top of the counterweight tube will be on the same plane as/flush with the bottom of the arm cuff. I expect to be able to keep the weights to a maximum of 6" length or less, per customer specification (6" being long enough to accommodate the weight needed to fully balance the 15" coil). Purchase of a roughly 6" counterweight would therefore allow any combination of weight (via pellets in the plastic bags) to be added or removed, simply by removing the end cap. Shorter counterweights will be constructed in the same way (likely in roughly 2" and 4" lengths), and -- while still including the threaded end cap and plastic bags, so as to be "customizable" in terms of the amount of weight, the shorter-length tubes would of course not accommodate quite as much weight.

    At this point, calculations show that 2 1/2" or so of tube length will hold roughly 12 oz. weight, 4.75" or so will hold roughly 25 oz. of weight, and 5 1/2" or so will hold 28 oz. weight.

    I chose to specifically mention 12 oz., 25 oz., and 28 oz. as the weights to use as example tube lengths, for this reason:

    Assuming "average" lower shaft adjustment length, and a "reasonable" shaft angle, relative to the ground (i.e. swinging the coil a moderate/reasonable distance out from your feet)…

    12 oz. is roughly the amount of weight needed to COMPLETELY BALANCE the machine with 6" coil.

    12 oz. is ALSO roughly the amount of weight needed to offset the weight difference between the 6" coil and the 12" x 15" coil; said another way, 12 oz. counterweight will make the machine feel the same when swinging the 12" x 15" coil, as it would when swinging the 6" coil with NO counterweight.

    25 oz. is roughly the amount of weight needed to COMPLETELY BALANCE the machine for the 11" coil.

    28 oz. is roughly the amount of weight needed to COMPLETELY BALANCE the machine for the 12" x 15" coil.

    I would like to stress again, that it's completely up to the user as to the amount of counterweight which is "right" for their needs/desires/preferences. Some may wish for COMPLETE balance, for the larger coils; others may wish to only offset the additional weight added when using one of the larger coils. Still others may wish only for a few ounces of counterweight, just to "help a little." And of course, MANY folks will prefer no counterweights at all -- preferring instead the benefits of a lighter machine, as afforded by the carbon-fiber shaft without counterweights.

    The bottom line is this -- this design of the counterweight system will allow complete customer flexibility in terms of exactly what length of counterweight they wish for me to produce for them, and exactly what amount of weight they wish to include in that tube.

    Thanks all, for all your input. These interactions have been quite helpful toward finalizing the design. I think that at this point, with the weights as an optional accessory, this design will allow the most flexibility possible in terms of individual customer wishes -- ranging anywhere from NO COUNTERWEIGHT AT ALL (and thus a lighter machine than when using the stock shaft system), all the way up through fully balancing the 12" x 15" coil via roughly 28oz. counterweight -- plus any other combination of desired counterweight/balance in between.

    Thanks!

    Steve
    Last edited by sgoss66; Dec 19, 2018 at 08:14 AM.

  11. #26
    us
    Apr 2013
    Marin County, CA
    Minelab Equinox and an old Whites 6000di.
    11
    18 times
    Metal Detecting
    Sounds great! Thanks for the hard work. I look forward to getting one!

  12. #27
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    tomtom --

    THANKS for the kind words. I think this should work out real well, for those interested.

    Steve

  13. #28
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    Also, I'm excited to announce that I have just finalized a "loose end" I've been working on, with my friend Jeff Herke.

    Jeff has produced a small "test run" of Herke arm cuffs that I'll be offering as an optional accessory for my Equinox shafts!

    These cuffs are essentially identical to the cuffs Jeff has offered for many other machines in the past, and for any of you who have owned a "Herke cuff" for one of your detectors, you know the quality he puts into them. A "padded neoprene cover" will also be available for the cuff, as an optional accessory.

    Jeff plans to
    see what the demand is for the cuffs, once they are offered for sale, before deciding whether to continue to produce them, or not -- so at first they will be a "limited-time only" option. If they appear to be selling well, he'll decide at that point whether to continue to produce them.


    I'll have pictures and prices for the cuffs up on my website, at the same time the shafts are ready for sale (roughly mid-January is the target).

    Thanks!

    Steve

  14. #29
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2015
    Near Ground Zero for Insanity
    XP Deus with HF/x35 Coils and Mi6 Pinpointer/ML Equinox 600/800/ML GPX 4800/Garrett ATX/Fisher F75 DST/Tek Delta/Whites MXT/Nokta Simplex/Garrett Carrot
    4,536
    7388 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    What’s the delta in weight of Equinox between the stock shaft system and your CF shaft system?
    "The future ain't what it used to be..."

  15. #30
    Charter Member
    us
    Jan 2011
    Norman, OK
    Minelab CTX 3030, Minelab Equinox 800
    835
    1063 times
    Metal Detecting
    vferrari --

    Mine will be roughly 2.75 pounds, versus the Minelab stock setup at roughly 3 pounds.

    Thanks!

    Steve
    vferrari likes this.

 

 
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