Steve's Detector Rods. C/G, FULCRUM

[Thurman]

Hello,

I am new to detecting and a proud owner of a new Equinox 800. I was very impressed with Steve's product line and thoughtful summaries of balance issues with detectors!

As a model aircraft enthusiast, the "balance" or center of gravity (c/g) is critical to flight and stability of aircraft. In that hobby, as here, when the plane is nose-heavy, we lengthen the tail portion of the fuselage or add weight to the existing tail end. Just as Steve does with counter weights at the handle end of the detector......and it takes a considerable amount, increasing overall weight.

I have no real issue with the stock design, but I have nothing to compare it with other than my old detector (Minelab Exterra - and the new one seems light as a feather!

This leads me to questions regarding the weight savings of Steve's carbon tubes v. stock, and therefore lessening the amount of weight needed to counterbalance properly, v. the stock tubes. And, as us modelers know, it would take much less weight in the rear - if the rear tube was lengthened for the needed weight (say 12 inches) (per his fulcrum anology).

Make the lengthening tube as light as possible with all the weight a solid lead cylinder. It may also be beneficial to angle the extension downward to keep the c/g low, counteracting any rolling moments. A true c/g at the fulcrum (handle) probably is not desireable as this keeps the forearm in the cup (I rarely us the strap as it is not necessary.

Just some thoughts. I can't tell you how great it is to have such a competent vender such as Steve, making incredibly high quality products for us! Remember I am a beginner - this could all be old irrelevant conversation to you experienced guys! I will also likely be a customer of his, especially if he can make a counter-weighted "extension" and thereby, perhaps, keep the overall weight the same as stock. And the shafts are so pretty!

Best regards to all, Thurman

 

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[RustyGold]

I have several of Steve’s rods (2 lower and 1 complete setup) and they are awesome in their construction and design.

 

[sgoss66]

Rusty --

THANKS for the kind words!

Thurman --

Thank you very much for your insight, and your thoughts; your kind words are very much appreciated as well! I appreciate your support of the concept; clearly, you have experience in other areas, regarding balance, fulcrums, c/g, etc. -- and your insights that you've posted here are much appreciated!

To touch on a few of your points -- YES, lightening the shaft overall (BEFORE attempting to counterbalance) is correct; my shaft is about 25% to 30% lighter than the stock shaft. YES, making the length of the butt-end of the shaft longer (i.e. putting the weight as far from the fulcrum -- i.e. handle -- as you can) DOES reduce the amount of weight needed to counterbalance. The issue there, though, is you don't want the extension off the butt-end to be TOO long, either; it would be cumbersome and "get in the way" when detecting, so there are several different considerations to be considered, when designing a good counterweight system, which I've tried to do in a way that works well for most.

I really appreciate your insight, and you sharing it here online. As I have said, I fully appreciate that it can be a bit "counter-intuitive" to "add weight" to a machine -- which many have purchased due to it being advertised as a "light" machine. But, being "light," in terms of overall weight, is NOT the "end all/be all" in terms of COMFORT. Just as you have alluded to, if you do not have the balance issues addressed, as well, a lighter machine will actually be less comfortable to swing, that one which is balanced properly, but a bit heavier...

Thank you, sir -- and if you would like to chat about a shaft, and counterweight, let me know. I'm more than happy to have a good dialogue with you.

Thanks!!

Steve
Steve's Detector Rods, home of Equinox and CTX 3030 carbon-fiber shafts and rods
www.facebook.com/stevesdetectorrods

email: [email protected]

 

[Thurman]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Right on, no need for stuff to get in the way (lengthening). Just for fun, I plan on a few mock-ups of ideas. 1. Angled triangle shape that becomes a support (to keep box off the sand). 2. Folding for storage, etc. ..... you know the drill. I will let you know if anything meaningful pops up.

First though, I need to get up a fairly steep curve of learning to adj. the machine properly. Beach (in Puget Sound) is giving me fits! Hopefully back home in central FL, I will have fewer issues - my XTerra had no issues. Don't understand yet the ferrous issues. My best, high-number signals, are still rusty iron stuff which should be masked.....?

Best regards, Thurman

 

[sgoss66]

Thurman,

I hear you, on the steep learning curve! I do think that the lower-mineral Florida sand will present an easier learning environment, for someone new to the machine.

I like your counterweight ideas, too.

Steve

 

[gunsil]

Metal detectors are not airplanes and not subject to better performance from balance. Weight is weight and no matter where you put it it only makes more mass to swing. Coming from a five pound+ Safari to a light Nox is a wonderful thing to me. I have no problem with Nox balance but I swing from the shoulder with my arm almost straight down in line with the shaft. I would love to see an 8" coil for the Nox, I think it would feel even better with an 8 or 9" coil. The most unwieldly machine I ever used was an Excal with factory shaft. Putting a Plugger carbon straight shaft on it made it easier to swing but it is still a beast compared to the Nox.

 

[HighVDI]

I see many people have opinions on the whole adding weight to make it feel lighter WITHOUT ever trying both. Hard to have an opinion based on ignorance.

 

[gunsil]

I sure hope you aren't referring to me. My Plugger Excal shaft has mounting options and I HAVE tried it with the weight behind the cuff, may make the coil feel lighter but it certainly doesn't make the whole machine feel any lighter. Tires my shoulder and arm more than a lighter machine no matter where I put the weight. Somebody wants to swing more weight, that is their prerogative, I am old and skinny and like less weight to swing about.

 

[vferrari]

Ignorance? I would be careful about throwing that term around just because some folks may have a different opinion and legitimate concerns about the potential downsides of mitigation’s such as counterbalance weights. Failing to acknowledge that the added weight could potentially create other issues (unlikely but possible) for some folks or that the counterbalance may not be the universal answer to everyone’s Equinox swing woes is just as close minded as those that refuse to ever consider a counterbalance as a legitimate solution. But I don’t need to try the counterweight system to know in my case the extra weight comes with no additional benefit (explained further below). I also know that the counterbalance system is a godsend to many dealing Equinox swing discomfort. As with most detecting issues, there are few absolutes and no universal correct approach.

I am a firm believer that the reason a detector feels comfortable or uncomfortable to an individual is subject to a variety of reasons including the stature, joint health, and arm strength of the individual, what that individual is used to in their detecting experience (if all they have swung is nothing, a Go Find, or a Deus, then they are in for a new experience that may feel uncomfortable even though the Equinox weighs less than most detectors), balance, coil choice, and how the individual actually swings the detector (e.g., is there lateral twisting simply due to poor swing technique that wastes energy, causes fatigue, and degrades performance by not keeping the coil moving smoothly and parallel to the ground?). A counterbalance system can address some but not all these issues and in some cases can make things worse.

If your arm hurts or gets fatigued, it is best to first figure out why it is hurting and then pursue the the proper “fix”. Unless you know what is causing the the issue, reaching for a “fix” without knowing why can just create additional issues.

Therefore, it is preferable, in my opinion, to figure out the true cause of the issue because other than shaft length adjustments, mitigation’s such as counterbalances and swing harness do not come without some minor downsides such as extra cost, weight, or in the case of tether harnesses extra claptrap to deal with during target recovery.

I had issues with the OEM shaft system, but my issue was lack of the ability to properly adjust the distance between the arm cuff and control head. Steve’s system allowed me to optimally adjust those that distance and the lower shaft extension to allow me to swing the Equinox without the discomfort I experienced with the OEM system fortuitously without the need to add the weight associated with a counterbalance system though I did get the premium system that was “counterbalance ready”. Other folks with longer arms could benefit from the counterbalance system and also easily accommodate the extra weight. No one size fits all solution. Just because I didn’t personally need or try the counterbalance system does not make me ignorant. But I did consider all options with an open mind and pursued all “easy” options to deal with my Equinox swing issues first. The next step would probably have been trying out the counterbalance system.

As Smokey says, if you can, you should try different things (all day swing, if possible) so you can see what works and not just assume a particular fix is universal. Very similar to the “no win” straight vs. S shaft argument.

Work with Steve or the other TNET sponsors to find the solution that works best for you. HTH.

 

[HighVDI]

I've read so many posts about this topic and at least 50% of the people have never even used this exact product....I know, you have one and do not seem very happy with it. You're the only one I know that actually has this setup and has this opinion. I really don't tread that lightly on a message forum. As long as I'm not personally attacking anyone I don't have to be "careful"

 

[sgoss66]

Everyone,

I wanted to make a few points here.

First of all, there is a reason the counterweight system is an OPTIONAL accessory to my shafts. I realize that not everyone will WANT a counterweight (they simply prefer keeping the overall weight of the machine as light as possible), and not everyone will NEED a counterweight (such as vferrari, who did not purchase the counterweight, because he was able to improve the "feel" of his shaft WITHOUT purchasing the weight).

I also realize, as I have said many times, that it can be a bit counterintuitive to "add weight" to a light machine. However, there is legitimate science behind the idea, and that's why it works for so many. I went through some of this debate, back when I was asking for user input during the design phase -- right here on the forum. There were plenty of skeptics back then, and there still are, now. I get that. And I can fully appreciate skepticism. I am a scientist, and scientists are by nature "skeptical." We HAVE to be. Things must be proven, repeatedly, through empirical observation, before they can be accepted as fact.

HOWEVER, when someone says "adding counterweight will not work," or "metal detectors … are not subject to better performance from balance" (as was stated earlier in this thread) they are simply making incorrect statements.

Now, to say -- as vferrari did -- that adding counterweight "may not work for everyone," in terms of relieving fatigue or pain, that IS a true statement. As he said, there can be different causes for pain or fatigue. But the categorical statements -- i.e. that counterweighting "will not work" or "can not improve performance" of a shaft system -- these are simply incorrect statements.

First of all, unless one were to try a properly counterweighted shaft, how could one state that counterweighting "won't work" or "can't help," when the physics of the situation suggests otherwise?

Secondly, if one were to try a properly counterweighted shaft, and it only felt heavier to that individual, without any improvement in their pain or fatigue level, then the MOST that person could say is, "the counterweighting solution didn't work FOR ME." As vferrari noted, SOME users may experience pain for other reasons, not related to the nose-heaviness of the unit.

I know that many folks are not bothered by the nose-heaviness/imbalance of the Equinox. I personally will rarely use counterweighting; only when I swing the 12" x 15" coil for very long hunts, do I experience any fatigue, and so only then do I add counterweighting. But others feel much more pain/fatigue, even on a short hunt, and MANY of those folks have been helped significantly, through counterweighting. This isn't the peddling of "snake oil," or "hocus pocus," or the "placebo effect;" again, it's science.

Consider this...if I ask you to go pick up an 8-foot-long, two-by-four piece of lumber, and carry it to me, how will you pick it up? Are you going to reach down and grab it at the very end of the board, and try to lift it? Of COURSE not! Although the absolute weight of the 2x4 is not substantial (about 11 or 12 pounds -- something nearly any of us could lift), it is nonetheless VERY DIFFICULT to lift the 2x4 off the ground if lifting it from one end, let alone carry it for any distance. Why? Because -- IT IS IMBALANCED. Speaking from a physics perspective, the long board is acting as a lever, the "fulcrum" is at the end of the board (the location you are lifting it from), and gravity is acting on the piece of lumber using leverage to its advantage. The result?? It feels HEAVY. And this example is not AT ALL unlike the situation with a detector, where the "fulcrum" is at the hand grip (very near to the end of the lever).

INSTEAD of lifting the board from the very end, what most everyone would intuitively do, of course, is find the approximate MIDDLE of the 2x4, and lift from that point. NOW, the MIDDLE of the board (where you are lifting it from) becomes the fulcrum, and you now have equal weight on either side of the fulcrum. This makes the 2x4 VERY EASY to carry, even over a long distance. Another way of saying it, is that the 2x4 is "properly counterweighted" -- you have evened the weight on either side of the fulcrum, and it becomes much easier to lift/carry.

To carry my analogy a bit further...say you take that same 2x4, which you are holding at the exact center (the "center of gravity"). Now, allow me to add 2 pounds of weight to the very end of the board, at one end only. Instead of 12 pounds of weight, the board with the 2-pound weight at the end now weighs about 14 pounds -- not a huge difference. But, what happens? The now-weighted end of the board begins to immediately "fall" toward the ground, of course. Why? because the board is once again IMBALANCED. THIS is the situation with a detector -- a weight (the coil), sitting out at the end of a long lever (the shaft), with the fulcrum NOT at the "center of gravity."

NOW -- say I ask you to carry that now-imbalanced board some distance, but hold it LEVEL as you carry it, and do this WITHOUT moving your hand position (i.e. without changing the fulcrum position). Difficult, right? You are having to use your arm/wrist to counteract that 2 pounds of weight, out at the end of the board, in order to hold the board level to the ground. Do you think your arm/wrist/shoulder might begin to become fatigued, or even that some pain might develop, if you continued to fight gravity, trying to hold that board level, for any appreciable length of time? Is this not VERY similar to the situation with your detector? Do you not have a 1 to 2 pound "weight" at one end of a long lever, with you fighting gravity with your arm/wrist/shoulder in order to keep the coil of the machine floating a couple of inches off the ground as you swing?

NOW, however, imagine -- with your hand still at the center of the board -- that I then add ANOTHER two pounds of weight, but to the OTHER end of that board. In other words, I've added TWO POUNDS OF COUNTERWEIGHTING. NOW what? Does the board go back to being level, with NO EFFORT AT ALL being applied by your wrist/arm to keep the board level? And with the board level, and properly balanced, is it now easier to carry than it was before, when only the first 2-pound weight was applied at one end? And, more importantly, is it now easier to carry, in that level position, DESPITE now weighing two pounds more (16 pounds, instead of only 14 pounds)?

Again, there is some rather simple physics at play here, and this underlies the entire premise of my counterweight system. Again, I fully agree that if the machine does not feel nose-heavy to you, and is thus not causing you any pain or fatigue, there is NO REASON to add counterweighting; all that the counterweight would do in that case is make the machine heavier, with no compensating benefit.

I also fully respect that someone might try the counterweighting, and find that it does NOT help with their fatigue or pain. Again, IF their fatigue or pain is due to some OTHER cause, INSTEAD of the machine's nose-heaviness, the counterweighting will not help much, if at all. While I will note that I haven't had single customer yet say that the counterweighting did not help, if not totally solve, the pain/fatigue issues they were having, I acknowledge that it is possible that not all will be helped.

Finally, I think it goes without saying that adding counterweighting WILL make the machine "heavier," in an "absolute" sense. I think this is obvious. HOWEVER, going back to my 2x4 board examples above, I think it should ALSO be obvious that adding a PROPER amount of weight, in the PROPER location, would most certainly make the machine "feel lighter," and thus easier to swing, for many Equinox users. The more correct way to say it is, the machine becomes "more balanced," and thus "easier to swing," but to most, the sense is simply that the unit feels "lighter," despite the additional overall weight, thus relieving the pain/fatigue being experienced.

Finally, while I can appreciate the need for civility, and I strive at all times (imperfectly, of course) to remain respectful and civil when dealing with others, I personally did not find HighVDI's choice of the word "ignorance" as lacking civility. Given that the definition of ignorance is "lack of knowledge" (not "dumb," or "stupid," but simply "not informed"), it seemed a reasonable way to describe someone saying something "can't work," without having any first-hand experience with the product, and in contradiction to the science underlying the situation. So yes, if someone states categorically that counterbalancing the Equinox "does not work," or that "balancing a shaft will not make it perform better" -- especially if the person making the statement has never seen nor tried the counterweighting system I offer -- then I do think it is fair to say that they are speaking from a position of being "not informed." And if someone is "not informed," it seems to me that they are unable to speak with any authority on whether the counterweights I've designed "work," or not.

Please forgive the long-windedness here, but since this was a thread that was started with my business's name in the title, I wanted to offer this commentary to hopefully help to ensure that any misinformation found in the thread is challenged/rebutted. I try to run my business in such a way so as to be as honest and straight-forward as I can possibly be, and as such, I wouldn't be selling the counterweight system for my shafts, if counterbalancing the unit was not scientifically sound, and thus would not offer any benefit to a good number of folks out there swinging the Equinox. That's not me, that's not the way I do business.

Bottom line -- if you are someone who is having arm/wrist/shoulder pain, and looking for some assistance, I encourage you to try my counterweight system. Or rig something up yourself -- and try it out. Again, I understand skepticism, but I also understand science, and it's pretty incontrovertible, in this case. Counterbalancing IS a good solution, for many Equinox users experiencing hand/wrist/arm/shoulder pain or fatigue. There are plenty of folks now using the system, who have, and will, attest to the difference that the counterweight system makes. Again, the science supports it...

Thanks!

Steve
Steve's Detector Rods, home of Equinox and CTX 3030 carbon-fiber shafts and rods
www.facebook.com/stevesdetectorrods

 

[Professor of Engineering]

Hello sgoss66 (Steve),

I enjoyed reading your very detailed post (#11). Your arguments are well thought out and are scientifically correct, spoken like a true scientist. I too am a scientist (physicist) and love reading a sound post.

Regards,

Doc

 

[vferrari]

Steve

Great response. As an engineer myself. you hit the nail on the head as I was saying in my post, the user needs to understand the issue causing discomfort first and pursue the appropriate remedy. Rejecting the counterbalance approach out of hand simply because of the added weight is as misguided as presiming a counterbalance approach is the universal fix for all swing discomfort issues. Folks need to do some investgations and test prospective fixes under real world conditions. Take advantage of the fact that customer serviced folks like you are willing to work with them on solutions while minimizing the risk of losing money on the wrong fix.
I have personally found that TNET sponsor vendors like yourself generally have great equipment but also treat their customers like people and not numbers on some invoice. It is the personal customer service you provide that makes the difference and that backs up a fine shaft system product for which I am a repeat customer (full disclosure).

 

[sgoss66]

Professor

-- I appreciate the kind words! And I appreciate you "seconding" the science underlying the concept of counterweighting a shaft. Again -- as counterintuitive as it might seem at first blush, you can't argue with the physics (as you, for one, well know)!
Professor

-- I appreciate the kind words! And I appreciate you "seconding" the science underlying the concept of counterweighting a shaft. Again -- as counterintuitive as it might seem at first blush, you can't argue with the physics (as you, for one, well know)!

​

vferrari

-- totally agreed. As you alluded to, there are different possible sources of pain -- including how far the lower rod is extended, swing mechanics, location of the arm cuff, etc. etc., AS WELL AS each individual's musculature, strength/physical condition, possible previous injuries, etc. From that perspective, I completely agree that one must figure out the SOURCE of their pain, before that pain can be mitigated.

With that said, the design of the Equinox presents a fairly obvious potential source of ergonomic issues, just based on my "two-by-four lumber" analogy above. Simply put, your wrist and arm are in for a workout, if you swing the Equinox for a long time, with a large coil. It is this specific ergonomic deficiency of the unit that counterweighting can address, and in my experience thus far, this is a primary source of the ergonomic issues that many folks are dealing with.

Again, I encourage anyone -- in searching to figure out the source of any pain or fatigue, as vferrari advised -- to rig up a temporary "counterweight," and see if you don't immediately feel relief. It takes more weight than you might think -- try about a pound, give or take, but if the nose-heaviness of the unit IS the source of your issues, you will feel a significant improvement right away, when attaching 12 to 16 oz. of counterweight.

Finally, as vferrari alluded to, I am also more than willing to help "minimize any risk," from a money perspective. I'm happy to allow anyone to "try" the counterweight, with one of my shafts, and see how it works for you. I have made this offer to several customers who were initially unsure, allowing them to give the counterweight a try, for one or two hunts (wrapped in the bubble-wrap bag I send it it), and confirm that it reduces or eliminates the pain and fatigue. If not, I would accept a return, and provide a full refund. I have yet to have anyone return one...


Thanks, vferrari, for the kind words, and your support!

Steve
www.stevesdetectorrods.com
www.facebook.com/stevesdetectorrods​

​

 

[nagant]

Steve, do you sell the threaded insert for your counter balance? I made my own C/F rod and am thinking about adding your set up.

 

[sgoss66]

nagant -- what you want to do may be possible; if you would like to pursue the idea, please send me an email to [email protected], and we'll have a chat about it and see if we can make it work for you.

Thanks!

Steve

 

[Thurman]

Nice thoughtful reply Steve. I too am (was for 30 years) a professional Human Factors engineer and Industrial Designer. My post was in hopes of a creative dialog on possible benefits of VARIOUS counterbalance systems (folding rear extension, extension becoming a sand beach support, holder for pinpointer/scoop BEING the weight, useable magnet being the weight, etc.).

Believe me, I know a detector is not an airplane, can spot ignorance from a mile away (but like ALL crazy ideas), and do not try to teeter-todder by myself.

Best regards to all, Thurman

 

[sgoss66]

Thurman,

I am very glad to hear that you know not to teeter-totter alone. It’s rather boring to do so, after all. LOL!

Among other things you have going for you, pithiness, and a sense of humor, are obviously included!

Steve

 

[cudamark]

You actually can teeter todder by yourself.....if you stand with one foot on each side of the fulcrum and shift your weight back and forth! Like in Steve's analogy, you try to do it sitting at one end.......impossible to do, but, if you get it balanced, regardless of weight, it's easy.

 

[sgoss66]

LOL — good point, Mark!

Steve