2010 Think-Off question

[DigginThePast]

I wanted to answer this thread in the spirit of how the question was posed prior to reading any of the replies.

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"Do the wealthy have an obligation to help the poor?"

The idea of an obligation has been dreamed up in the mind of mankind. Obligations are nothing more than morals and as such are derived from either political or religious motives. The problem with any political or religious ideal is, no matter how fervently we believe, we may never know for sure if our belief is the correct one.

Either singularly or collectively man has made up laws to decide what is or is not acceptable morally. These morals are what set our obligations in the eyes of the law, our peers and what we are expected to live by. However, these obligations are fluid, think right of women to vote or slavery. If these obligations are fluid then how can we say with any certainty what is morally right or wrong (our obligations).

Today we hear talk of the obligations and expectations of us as members of “a civilized or a modern society”. An individual(s) will decide that other members of that society should now have a new obligation and force their opinion on them by passing a new law. Who is to say that this new law is correct or moral?

The wealthy have no obligation to help the poor or anyone else for that matter. However, all too often, the wealthy are lumped together and demonized as being greedy, immoral or somehow evil. The wealthy by means of business ownership whether wholly or partially provide jobs for others who are then able to purchase homes, cars, healthcare etc. For one example, we will see an article about an individual or a family giving a large sum of money to a college, a hospital or some such. We often hear how that money would have been better used perhaps to feed the local hungry rather than build a wing on a hospital with some family name attached to it. Do we fully think this through though? Do we stop to think about the medical advances that may occur or state of the art care we (the society) may receive in that wing?

Perhaps if we were to spend more time looking inward we would see what our obligations are and what others have done to help society as a whole rather that spending so much time telling others what to do.

 

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[vibes]

I haven't chimed in yet, so here's my contribution, a simple statement/question:

Define wealth

 

[Tnmountains]

Thanks Vibes.
What is the deadline for the contest?

 

[DigginThePast]

I should have through the whole thread first. I could have just with a simple "No".

 

[vibes]

Thanks Vibes.
What is the deadline for the contest?

http://think-off.org/

here ya go TN MTNS..the deadline is Apr. 1st.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I would think that at 44 years of age, if you have lived in Pa since childhood, you would have seen poor - without being able to do a thing about it. Thousands laid off, steel mills closed, an unemployment rate topping 30%. Nobody was hiring, unless it was minimum wage. (and that's not a real living wage).

No, I take that back, you probably aren't quite old enough.

From Webster: Poor, lacking material possessions; less than adequate

I do believe that there are certainly people who do not do what they need to do - and they are wide-spread.

But, there is the other side of the scenerio also. You think the folks during the depression CHOSE that? Do you think the thousands of people who got "taken" by people like Bernie Madoff CHOSE that? Millions of dollars have been lost by people who depended on that income - folks medicare age - people who didn't have 30 years to rebuild their savings.

It is just unfair (and incorrect) to say that all people chose to be poor, and they can change it.

Now, that doesn't change what I think about the government making you or I contribute - because I don't think the government should be telling us what to do with our income.

Which, by the way, is different than the government taking tax money to pay things like welfare, food stamps, housing, etc. (which is all federal money, just managed by your individual state.

B

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

If you suddenly accumulate wealth, say a large treasure by your own efforts, expense, deprivations, and perhaps danger, how much are you willing to share with those that are capable of working, but won't??

This does not include the ones that are incapable such as with infirmities or age.

Lack of basic education is not accepted, it is there for all and free, just needs a bit of effort, a naughty word for many of our US citizens..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[godisnum1]

Alright, I'll throw my opinion in...

My pastor said something pretty profound on Sunday, which this conversation immediately made me think of.
He said, "God's not impressed with our stuff!"
Regardless of what you believe, it's definitely true. At the end of the day, or the end of our lives... it's all just "stuff" anyway.
I do understand that this question is a loaded one, primarily being a "moral" question above anything else. Or if anything, a show of character.

I personally don't care one way or another if other people help each other or not... though I think they should! I can't and won't make anyone.
All I know is, I like helping people. I know this will spill into "religious" talk, but I'm really not subjecting anyone to believe anything.
I do know that the Bible says, especially in Proverbs (lessons on life & living, from a father to a son) that we should help the poor... the orphans, the widowed, the needy. Now for YEARS, I've been pulled in my heart if I should always help people when they are asking for it. I know I *love* helping people, but I've also grown up and realized that not all people are in "need". I'm always watching for people who aren't asking, but it's apparent they're in need.

Down here in Florida, there are people stationed at almost every corner holding signs. Some are simple, some are elaborate... some even try to pull at your faith by saying "religious" or "patriotic" things. I see many of them with their "props" all around (i.e. broken down bicycles, shopping carts loaded with enough "stuff" to literally make it the size of a VW Beetle!, tattered clothes, dirt or grease smudged across their faces and on their arms, etc.) I've even watched a few "hang out" all day, collecting money... then walk off to a Mercedes and a BMW that was parked less than 200 feet away. It's THIS kind of stuff that's somewhat hardened my heart to people who claim they have nothing.

BUT, I've also seen people who are so in need... and they don't even need to ask or hold a sign. You can see it in their eyes, their hopeless stares as they can't even managed up enough change in line to by a can of beans... or a blanket to keep them warm. To see a child following close behind them, weary of anyone that even looks their way... man, those things literally kill me inside.
I don't have alot, and I don't think money is an end-all to people's problems... but I think a well-chosen transfer of money, whether it's change or bills, can really help people out sometimes. I personally prefer to pay for things for people... whether it's food, something to drink, or just trying to figure out a place for them to stay so they can establish themselves or remove themselves from their current situations. Everyone deserves second chances in life, even if they are on their 8th or 9th. I know I've been in need of a second-chance so many times throughout my life.

Right now, I know that it's not only the "corner regulars" that are in dire times right now... it's even people and families that have worked hard their whole lives, only to lose everything to the out-of-control train wreck that we know as our economy. There's so many people being forced to live in tent cities, wanting a job, trying to get hired anywhere, but getting rejected for months and months on end. It took me about 8 or 9 months to finally find a job after getting laid off the week before Christmas '08 and applying for over 188 positions between Missouri and Florida. Stuff just happens sometimes... and it's out of our hands.

There are no obligations to help each other. You either do, or you don't. Whether you have money or you don't, it shouldn't matter. I think we should all help each other (not just monetarily) regardless of where we are in life. We're all alot stronger together than we are separated.
The worse things get in this country and world, the more evident this will become.

Sorry if I've offended anyone, and sorry if I've typed much more than I intended.

Bran <><

 

[thrillathahunt]

I do not think you can answer this question WITHOUT introducing either politics or religion.

Think about this though. Jesus said there would always be the poor.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)


Jesus commanded, "Love your neighbor." When asked to define "neighbor," Jesus expanded the traditional meaning of the word--defining our neighbor as anyone who is in need, including social outcasts: "But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed." (Luke 14:13)

Bran,

You have not said too much - you said what your opinion is - and that is what this topic is about.


But, thrillathahunt, you are right - and its probably a combination of politics and religion.

B

 

[Johnnysan]

This thread reminded me of the guy years ago that won the lottery. He had a wife and kids and was constantly in debt. Of course he paid off the bills, then came the parties. Next he bought cars and homes, for himself and 'friends'. The millions went fast, then so did his friends. He was interviewed in the home he was about to lose, along with the new boat and cars. He spent a lot of time lamenting the loss of everything, especially 'friends'.
Some people just can't live within their means. Most drug addicts spend 10s of thousands of dollars on drugs, but don't have a dime in their pocket. My prediction: if you gave a million dollars to the average poor person, that person would be broke in less than 5 years, and probably deep in debt (and blaming you for their misfortune).
Every once in a while you hear these 're-distribute the wealth' campaigns that claim world peace can be achieved when everyone has an equal share. What a load! There will always be those who work for what they have, and the rest will stand around with their hands out.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Johnnysan,

Have to agree with you - some people cannot handle living within their means. And there always will be those kinds of people. They also cannot teach their children how to do it, so, they raise another set of adults without the knowledge, or self-control.

I don't believe in the "give everyone an equal share" either. Regardless of where we live (America), we do have a class system of a sort.

Everyone is in a different place in their lives.

I am a firm believer in Maslow's theory, and have seen it repeated hundreds of times - even in my own life.

Also, we HAVE to have a class system of sorts. Not everyone can - or should - be an executive. There has to be the owners, the bosses, the workers that produce (whether it is a product or an idea) and the people who keep all the parts together, right down to the guy who cleans up after all of them, so they can do it all again tomorrow.

Our problem here, is that we have lost much of our manufacturing, so the blue collar workers (who sometimes made a lot of money) lost their jobs, and had to settle on the next, lower rung of the ladder, displacing the guy that was on that ladder and so on down to the floor, so to speak.

Somebody has to build the schools, someone has to hire the teachers, someone has to teach, someone has to keep the plumbing and septic and water and heat and cooling running, and when everybody is done with that, someone has to clean up the school. (so, we have the white collars and the blue collar class, and then everything after that.).

Not everyone is capable of being in every class - class = money and/or way of life. But they all need each other. If you don't have the work, you don't have the businesses, If you don't have the workers, you don't get your product out, if you don't get your product out, you aren't going to have customers, if you don't have customers, you don't have a business. Kinda simple, really, in that respect.

Nobody, nobody - gets to where they are without other people. (some think they have, but that's just an ego stroke).

Plus, as in Maslow's theory, you can go from the top of the rung, to the bottom tier in the snap of your fingers. Just ask someone who's lost their home to a flood, or hurricane or fire, or who gets divorced and loses half their income and/or assets, or someone who has a tragic accident.

B

 

[AU24K]

I've read many provocative replies on this thread...
I believe that the grubberment should not mandate redistribution of wealth, or the "rich" helping the "poor." The "rich" usually have some type of business and therefore employ workers. The "poor" should get themselves one of those jobs.

What incentive is it for someone to make money if the Feds want to hit your profits harder, leaving you less and less?

It is too easy on the "poor." Welfare, food stamps, ( rampant fraud in these programs), and free health care.
What incentive is there for the "poor" to get a job when there is all of these handouts available?

Scott

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Prospector40,

Could you elaborate, just a tad, on what you said?

The people responsible for sending jobs overseas is the business owners - for cheaper labor and that equals more profit for them.

I don't remember ever having to vote for business owner.

B

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Beth: In my explorations I have found that the further one goes into the back country, the more they share with each other. But, they also SHARE the work where possible. There are very few freeloaders such as we have in our society.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Jose, I have to agree - as I have seen that also.

Even here, where there are places that are miles away from each other (the phrase "just down the road" means you should fill up your gas tank), even people who do not like each other personally, pitch in when and where needed. And nobody, stands around "supervising" - everyone is working.

Beth

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Prospector40,

Thanks - I see where you are coming from with that statement now.

And, you are right - no matter when and where it started, someone has to step up and confront it.

Our politicians are not well known for doing anything at any reasonable pace - it takes them a month to decide that they need to look at something. (unless they are bailing out Goldman Sachs, etc.).

I fear that this "reconstruction" that we need, will take at least as long, if not longer, than it took for us to get into this.

B

 

[thrillathahunt]

Who is regulating and taxing business to death? That would be a good place to start. I bet its the same ones that keep raising the cost of doing business in this country.

Another guess would be who is demanding that workers get paid more for less work and have less accountability in what they do on the job? Can you say unions?

The first on is bad enouph, but if you put the above two together, you have situation like we got now in this country.

Now consider this, the political party that ran on change, open and transparentness, honest govt, and fiscal responsibiltiy is the same that has spent more money than any administration in history (and its not even been a full year yet), grew the debt more than any administration in history (and its not even been a full year yet), has lost more jobs than any administration in history (and its not even a full year yet), not to mention has stated plans to raise taxes and create taxes far above any administration in history. By the way, the other major political party is no better. They are both failures

If you think the job situation is nasty now, just wait. We havnt seen nothing yet.

A couple of the ways companies will stay in business is to go where its cheaper to do business, or to get rid of people.

I hate to say it, but this was born and breed in Washington DC and in all of the state capitols. People can blame the guy before obammy all they want, but sooner or later obammy and his party is gonna have to accept the responsibility. Remember, obammy and the other dem policies were in force after the change in office. And yes, I know the guy before him had his own scams to.

Every election cycle there is primarily one party that airs adds about the other party taking benefits and stuff, especially from seniors. Anyone care to guess who that is? And who is the ones that are doing it and making you pay anyway? And how do they keep getting back in office?

People may not have voted for business owners, but they have voted for failed business owners, alcoholics, drug users, bankruptcy filers, and the like. If the elected crowd cant even take care of themselves, how can one think they can take care of a country?

Maybe I happen to have more faith and confidence in my fellow man (and woman) than I do for any politician or their policies. And yes, that is on both sides of the political spectrum.

In this country a person can do what they want and make a better life for themselves. That is if they want to. But regardless, its not the fault of the rich people. Even they were what we considered poor once. I see no reason why they cant hand down to their family what they have. Its no different than you or me giving to our kids. Now that I think of it, its very expensive, in the form of taxes, to give whay I have to my kids when I die. Can you guess what political party had taxed that to the extent its taxed to? I bet people can, most just wont admit it cause its just one big blame game and jeolousy act.


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Very well said! I too agree with your statements. However, I do not think these are the thoughts that would win that essay competition, if you know what I mean.