I been ponderin.

[truckinbutch]

I been ponderin'.

Soooo...... You got your legal CCW and do carry until you get to the local 'big box' store
that has a poster in their window prohibiting you from carrying your legal firearm into their establishment .
Being a good boy scout , you lock it in your car before you go in , as per law ...
......Then the 'BAD THING' happens :
Bad people with guns that don't obey laws and silly signs come in the 'big box'store and announce a robbery in progress ......
If you were armed , you had a safe chance to stop this on the getgo . You are not because of store policy and the bad guys shoot up several people , including you ...............
Did that store assume responsibilities for you and your injuries and trauma because they assumed responsibility for your personal safety when they denied your own right to the same ?

 

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The truth news

 

[austin]

Are you kidding? You know that it would take a lawsuit to ever get justice and even if you won they would just appeal. Young people would read about the case everywhere and even more of them would want to be lawyers, half to protect Big Box against the people trying to get something and half for the "little guy" Either way you're out of luck. BUT, knowing you, I bet you'd make it to Big Box's sporting goods dept., load a 12 gauge and practice your little heart out on the bad guys. Now quit eating that chili before bed and dreaming up this stuff.

 

[truckinbutch]

Actually , Austin , it wasn't the chili or the cervesa . It was a valid question brought up on another forum . If a proprietor denies my right to "Keep and Bear " in his establishment ; then he must assume the responsibility of affording me the same level of protections I would have on my own .
If bad things happen and he/they have not afforded me the same level of protection I could have provided for myself had they not prohibited it ; they are negligent .
Think about it

 

[jeff of pa]

I never "Ponder" it hurts too much.

as you should know by now I don't own or carry, or feel I'll ever run into a situation
where I will wish I did. at least not till they outlaw eating Meat & I need to become an outlaw & shoot my own meal.

But you bring up a Valid point

of course if there is a sign on the door the robbers will put their guns
in their trunks before entering the store anyway Right

 

[bigscoop]

No firearms were allowed in my store. This policy applied to everyone other then law enforcement. (I also carried concealed). That sign you're referring to "applies to everyone" who enters the store other then law enforcement, which in the case that you present, shifts the liability in question to that individual who challenged the posted store policy. The same would be true of someone who used a firearm in the store in an attempt to thwart a robbery, he could actually be held liable for damages by the store. Liability is a monster of many heads.....too many heads, in my opinion.

PS: Remembering that just about anything can be challenged in the courts, and especially true of liability claims, at the point the sign is posted the store owners/management have done just about all they can do to keep their customers safe from the type of incident in question. At that point it simply becomes a matter for the court to decide should it be challenged. But as a store owner and the nature of my my business and it's location I was advised by my insurance company to post the sign on all my doors and in the window.

 

[onfire]

Was there a sign at fort Hood? We just had a instance that played out like this except the guy didn't see the sign and used his force to nail one of the shotgun toting public school grads. After that they confiscated his 9 and expects it never to get it back (Evidence) always carry a cheapo and let em keep it.

 

[bigscoop]

Point is, liability is the most overly abused claim in the court system. It's why your insurance rates and healthcare cost, etc., are so high. The notion that an individual can be held accountable for the unpredictable actions of another is ridiculous. The notion that we can sue, and win, because the coffee is too damn hot is also a ridiculous. In the hypothetical situation presented we fail to realize that the store owner/management, etc., also share in the same unwanted and uninvited trauma. Gun advocates would have you believe that everyone was armed in colonial America, but the truth is, during colonial times most people didn't even own a gun and those that did seldom carried them through the course of the routine day when there was no conflict. These same advocates also want to sue someone who has done all they can to prevent you from walking into a potentially dangerous situation. "Ridiculous!"

 

[packerbacker]

My family and I do not patronize stores with those signs or we choose to ignore the sign completely. They can't do anything to you anyway. Do you think a store clerk in one of these establishments could stop me from leaving before any police arrived if they thought I was carrying? It's called "printing" if someone can tell you are packing and most responsible gun carriers do not print. Printing could, in certain instances, be considered brandishing which is also illegal. All you really have to do is say sorry, I didn't see the sign. I wouldn't use a gun to prevent some store from getting robbed but I would sure as hell use it to protect my life or the life of a loved one. Then the old saying applies; I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Signs mean nothing except to lawyers.

 

[TheMcs]

I know each state is different, but in mine a No Firearms sign does not create law. If you have it concealed then no one should ever know. Should someone spot your firearm, the management can ask you to leave for breaking their rules. If you do not leave, you are then breaking the law by trespassing.
Given that, I carry everywhere except bars, government buildings and schools. I'd rather be banned from a store for having a firearm, than wishing I had. Simply put, should I need to draw, I'd prefer to deal with the fallout of surviving.
Better yet, like packerbacker, I try not to patronize stores that are ignorant enough to post such signs. A local range offers free business cards that expand upon the idea of "No guns = no money". Just hand it to the mgt and let them know that so long as they infringe upon the rights of vetted law abiding citizens, they will not receive any of my money. Our state online gun club even keeps a running list of such stores.
Jeff of PA, I always carry but never with the idea that I'll need it due to where I am going. If I knew where/when I'd need it, I wouldn't go there.
Historically, most public shootings happen in "gun free" areas. Theaters, schools, etc. We'll never know, but would be interesting if the knowledge of unarmed targets emboldened the shooter.

 

[Frankn]

That's what I was thinking. If you are carrying a gun in the store, you are not breaking any law. Frank

 

[XLTer]

Truckinbutch , as logical and well meaning as your question & point are , would you seriously consider discharging a weapon in a store full of inocent people ? Could you possibly know where that bullet will travel after exiting the body of the robber/killer ? In todays lawyer infested world , I would say the (LEGALLY) armed citizen would be prosicuted to a further extent than the criminal himself .
On that note , I can't argue with the point packerbacker makes . If my or a loved ones life ( 7 yr old daughter ) was visibly threatened , I would probably shoot and ask questions later and pray the only person injured was the criminal .

This reminds me of a story an old friend told of his friend that visited here from another country . Apon entering a K-Mart , his visitor stopped and raised his hands in a surrender fashion . My buddy asked what the h#ll he was doing ? He casually said , showing store security he was not armed and ready to be checked if asked . I guess stores in other countries have armed security already ?

 

[TheMcs]

would you seriously consider discharging a weapon in a store full of inocent people ? Could you possibly know where that bullet will travel after exiting the body of the robber/killer ?

1 - that's one reason I load hollow points in my EDC. If the bullet exits the body, collateral damage would be negligible.
2 - basic firearm training teaches you to know what's behind your target. A responsible carrier will have done enough mental prep to remember this in a SHTF/high adrenaline scenario.

 

[Frankn]

Around here the police carry weapons loader with rapidly expanding bullets that resemble the nose cone of a meg 21. I am sure that people that carry are well versed enough to use the same style ammo in populated areas. Frank

 

[bigscoop]

Respectfully; "Private property".....I find it odd that the same people who don't want armed strangers on their property are the same ones who are always complaining when they can't carry their weapon onto someone else's private property. What is this saying?

 

[packerbacker]

Actually scoop, if most folks carrying a legally concealed weapon came on my property, I wouldn't know they were armed. If something happened that caused this same legal-carrying citizen to draw their weapon, I feel I'd be glad they were there. Most of my adult family members all carry and most are from California. My sister is in Missouri but she also carries. None of my family has ever shot anyone with their concealed weapon nor have they ever drawn it.

 

[TheMcs]

Respectfully; "Private property".....I find it odd that the same people who don't want armed strangers on their property are the same ones who are always complaining when they can't carry their weapon onto someone else's private property. What is this saying?

I'd say there is a difference between me legally carrying in Toys R Us against their wishes, and a tweaker coming through my window at night. That viewpoint hardly makes me a hypocrit.

 

[XLTer]

1 - that's one reason I load hollow points in my EDC. If the bullet exits the body, collateral damage would be negligible.
2 - basic firearm training teaches you to know what's behind your target. A responsible carrier will have done enough mental prep to remember this in a SHTF/high adrenaline scenario.

Myself and I'm sure all the gentlemen in this thread are responcible carriers with the proper self defence loads , but I personally would hesitate in a store full of people . I'm sure it would be to my own regret if that actually happened . I personally know a few that carry . I'm not aware of any special training they have attended . Other than the couple that are LEO's .

 

[TheMcs]

I would definitely hesitate in a crowded area. Heavily crowded, i.e. state fair environment, no way am I shooting. The upside to a situation like that, most of the bystanders are going to take cover or concealment, while the aggravator will be in the open.
Again, each state differs, but here in order to obtain a carry license you have to go through a class. Value of the class differs from instructor to instructor.
My opinion of a responsible carrying citizen holds. You should prepare yourself both physically (range time & draw practice) and mentally (run through scenarios in your head, what would I do if this, etc.). Many people think just having the weapon on them will make them safer. Not true, and in some cases the opposite can occur. Your firearm should be a tool, not a talisman.
I'm not assuming this applies to you or yours XLTer, just trying to clarify my earlier statements.

 

[bigscoop]

Actually scoop, if most folks carrying a legally concealed weapon came on my property, I wouldn't know they were armed. If something happened that caused this same legal-carrying citizen to draw their weapon, I feel I'd be glad they were there. Most of my adult family members all carry and most are from California. My sister is in Missouri but she also carries. None of my family has ever shot anyone with their concealed weapon nor have they ever drawn it.

Point is, it is your right to allow firearms on your property, just as any landowner or business owner has the same right to not allow them. What I get from many is this, "respect my right to allow arms on my property, but I don't respect your right to not allow them. I will ignore your signs and pleas, etc." You said it yourself, you wouldn't see the sign. Why the lack of this mutual respect? The same respect you demand in regards to your own wishes on your own property? I don't get it at all. As for the original scenario presented in this thread, do you want to be held accountable for anything and everything a stranger may do while on your property, even when he is there against your wishes, or possibly armed against your wishes? Of course you don't, and you would fight it to no end. But by all means, lets sue the heck out of these business owners who did their best to try to keep potential danger out of their stores. Where is the sense of mutual respect and logic and in this? On any given day someone could walk onto your property and commit a horrific crime, are we suggesting that you should be held liable for his actions? Of course not. But when this happens in a business.........sure, sue the heck out of them.