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  1. #1
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    Personality Disorders

    Okay friends, hold on to your hats. It is going to be a bumpy ride. Many have referred to preventing the mentally ill from getting guns. Mental illness varies across many disorders. It could be a friend diagnosed with depression, to a schizophrenic homeless person, to a Vietnam vet with PTSD (which by the way is one of the reasons I get so upset when people go after the mentally ill. Suicide among vets returning from war is the highest it has ever been. May vets do not seek help because of the stigma associated with mental illness. I am proud of our servicemen and think we should do whatever we can to help them,) to a simple fear of snakes, to a mass murderer with a personality disorder. So blanket statements like "lock up the mentally ill" are really devoid of all logic, reason, empathy, and compassion. The killers that have shocked the world have a mental disorder but it is not what you think. All of the above disorders I mentioned and just about any other you can think of are Axis I disorders. Axis I disorders are genetic, chemical imbalances that can be treated with medications. Axis II are personality disorders, which is the topic of the post and what serial killers have one of. Axis III is medical illness, axis IV is social stressors, and axis V is global assessment of function. With that being said, lets take Crispin's crash course to Axis II:

    Axis II is broken down into three clusters. These clusters are oddly named: Cluster A, Cluster B, and Cluster C. Each cluster represents personality traits that are present in all of us. Everyone of us has personal quirks and nuiances that when taken to extremes can be diagnosed with a personality disorder. A simple way of figuring out if something is a personality disorder or just a personal trait is that personal disorders impair the ability of people to function in society.

    Cluster A: traits associated with psychosis
    Schizotypal personality disorder (PD): This personality disorder has been considered to be a possible prodrome of schizophrenia. However, not everybody who meets this diagnosis then goes on to develop schizophrenia. In general, these types of people have really bizarre beliefs or behave in strange ways but it does not effect their ability to function. Some examples are: people who believe they have been abducted by aliens and are part of a larger interterresital project, somebody who believes in ESP and feels they are guided by external forces, or somebody who sits outside in a patch waiting for the great pumpkin. A TV example is Kramer from Seinfeld.

    Schizoid PD: These types of people are loners. Very seldom will any of us come into contact with them because they avoid people at all costs. They do not own computers or cell phones because they think the government is constantly monitoring them. They prefer to live way off in the middle of nowhere where the closest neighbors are miles and miles away. They have a general distrust of everybody and everything.

    Paranoid PD: I am going to gloss over this one real quickly because most of the examples have to do with the government and conspiracies. I do not want to offend.

    Cluster B: This cluster is associated with problematic attitudes and relationships.
    Borderline PD: These people never develop a good sense of self. It is usually from being exposed to early childhood trauma. They tend to see things in black and white. Either all good or all bad. This is a very difficult PD to understand and a lot of mental health professionals do not get it correct. It really is not appropriate for discussion on an open forum.

    Histrionic PD: These people love to be the center of attention. They are usually very dramatic. They jump from one relationship to the next and each time immediately fall in love and think "this is the one forever." An cliche example of this is the teenage female adolescent...where everything is the end of the world. Most famous celebrities have a lot of these traits. These people can very easily be intoxicating to be around.

    Narcissistic PD: These people feel like they are superior to others. They feel they are always right and everybody else is stupid if they do not agree with them. They are very closed minded. They usually don't have a whole lot of friends because even people who agree with them can't stand their opinion for long. They do not see people as individuals; but rather, self objects. Objects to be used, discarded, and thrown away.

    Antisocial personality disorder: These people are pure evil. They have no conscience, no ability to anticipate punishment, no fear, and no remorse. They lie, cheat, steal, and kill because they want to. They do not feel bad about it when they do this.

    Cluster C: These disorders revolve around anxiety.
    Avoidant PD: Picture social phobia...take it down a notch or two and this is what you got. Personally, I think this is a stupid disorder and will be thrown out in DSM V. I have yet to find anybody that can tell me the difference between this and Axis I general anxiety disorder.

    Dependent PD: Like it sounds. These people can never make decisions and need somebody else to guide them throughout life. They are not 'sheep.' Their self esteem is so poor they are terrified to assert themselves and constantly rely on others.

    Obsessive-Compulsive PD: This IS NOT OCD. The two are totally different. This should be thrown out of the DSM V just because it is so confusing. These people are classic "Type A," "anal retentive," control freaks. There is more to it then that but it is hard to explain.

    Concluding thoughts: PDs cannot be treated with medication. They are NOT due to a chemical imbalance. Therapy can be helpful but rarely is and only if the person has a strong desire to change. Post people with a PD will never acknowledge that they have one. They think everybody else is the problem and they are the only sane ones.

    I hope this helps some of you understand mental illness better. Attack mental illness and you are attacking your friends, your family, and your loved ones. I urge you to be cautious before throwing these types of statements around. I will be watching...and I will stand for those who cannot stand for themselves.

    Sincerely,
    Crispin

  2. #2

    Jun 2007
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    Well done, "C"; can also "google" Personality Disorders... I like Wiki.
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  3. #3
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    So cluster B antisocial are not going to be on anyone in the mental health fields radar by their own choice being in denial?.
    What would some one in the field think of request to report some one with such a personality disorder?.what can be done to see disorder by others and what course of action/treatment would apply?.
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  4. #4
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    Crispin,
    because I know these are serious issues, once me and the nine cats in my head concur, we'll get back to you.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by releventchair View Post
    So cluster B antisocial are not going to be on anyone in the mental health fields radar by their own choice being in denial?.
    What would some one in the field think of request to report some one with such a personality disorder?.what can be done to see disorder by others and what course of action/treatment would apply?.
    Bingo! People with antisocial PD do NOT GO to see a doctor. The only time they ever get treatment is when they are in trouble with the legal system and are trying to manipulate their way out of it. That is why it makes absolutely no sense to have a gun limitation mental health check whatever it is. There is no treatment for antisocial PD (ASPD.) If you are interested in learning more I would reference you to Hervey Kleckly. He is the considered 'the source' on sociopaths (synonym for ASPD) and did extensive and vast research in the field. As to what can be done to stop these people...

    ...as you can imagine, a lot of them have drug problems. I have run into them in prisons and hospitals. I have testified for the secret service in front of a grand jury a few times to keep suspected sociopaths locked up. It is a blatant violation of their BoRs, but do you want these people on the streets?

    Here is another fun little piece of information for those of you who live in Florida. I, by law, am obligated to prevent murder or suicide if I am aware of certain intent. I have held people against their will and police have gone to their house and seized their guns. No permit, no court order, no nothing. Just my word. Why you ask? To prevent suicide and murders. All of my colleagues have similiar stories on having guns seized. It is a blatant violation of BoRs. But heh, if you tell a doctor you are going to kill yourself and/or other people, what do you expect to happen?
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  6. #6
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    "WP"

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    No treatment but confinement for one of many disorders could lead to general public's lock em up mentality covering a broad spectrum.(ya i,m ignorant too.) To busy rowing furiously with one oar.
    While a small segment of disorders, ASPD diagnosis before violence resulting in arrest would raise a flag but for what?and some not being diagnosed after arrest and other factors allowing them back "outside"would make proper diagnosis vital,a misdiagnosis would be a bummer too. This train of thought isn,t working,......
    Unless all ready incarcerated,(not that it goes away after) the potential to "go off" is there, till then mostly unnoticed in a mind,even by its owner. must be degrees and triggers involved?.
    Last edited by releventchair; Jan 16, 2013 at 08:17 PM.
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  7. #7
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by releventchair View Post
    No treatment but confinement for one of many disorders could lead to general public's lock em up mentality covering a broad spectrum.(ya i,m ignorant too.) To busy rowing furiously with one oar.
    While a small segment of disorders, ASPD diagnosis before violence resulting in arrest would raise a flag but for what?and some not being diagnosed after arrest and other factors allowing them back "outside"would make proper diagnosis vital,a misdiagnosis would be a bummer too. This train of thought isn,t working,......
    Unless all ready incarcerated,(not that it goes away after) the potential to "go off" is there, till then mostly unnoticed in a mind,even by its owner. must be degrees and triggers involved?.
    Exactly! Could not have phrased it better myself. There are degrees of ASPD, I have a book on my shelves called "Without Conscience" that talks about this. ASPD ranges from the deadbeat who lives off of women by manipulating them, to the lawyer he cheats grandmom of thousands, to the business that buys and liquidates a company for a quick profit, to the serial-rapist murderer. White Collar ASPD are everywhere. "Don't take it personal, its just business." Ummm, you lied to me and ripped me off...that is pretty personal.

    Triggers: There are not any. It is really a mind boggling thing. They are born this way, probably a 'broken circuit' somewhere, but nobody knows. Gun legislation and mental health do not belong in the same sentence. Psychiatrists know all of this. They know they cannot predict it, they know they cannot prevent it, and they know they cannot treat it. When you are dealing with pure evil...what do you do? Parole boards have psychiatrists on them. They play a large role in trying to keep these people locked up as long as possible; however, they have rights. Eventually they get released. ASPD accounts for less then 0.1% of all psychiatric disease. Safely, less then 0.01% that walk through the door of a psychiatrist.
    Last edited by Crispin; Jan 17, 2013 at 08:54 AM. Reason: got title of book wrong
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  8. #8
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    Having not studied academically i need to be cautious, in two individuals who appear near ASPD,a thin barrier gets them through social interaction. Both shed barrier when alcohol applied,not that they blame it for their actions. but there is a conscious effort to avoid arrest with out it. One will say any thing you want to hear to get out of prison but winds up back in. Its not his but others actions that are the cause. The other i tip toe around on the rare occasion i see him. while never a direct threat to me when he goes he is gone,smiling while he punches. In and out of jail a way of life. But still while not warm and fuzzy,either can get through a week in society with out a flare up. makes me wonder why,a build up or trigger. its hard to say nothing to stop it. Known one a very long time and avoid him. the pattern never changed.

    Thanks for your time, i feel its to serious to like your posts but do appreciate it.
    Last edited by releventchair; Jan 16, 2013 at 08:58 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Moving forward! "WP"

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    Crispin, not being at my computer but using my phone I will keep this short. A person that always thinks he is right...kind of a know it all and has a short fuse as well as holding grudges forever. What disorder does that sound like?
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  10. #10
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    Dieselram: Based on the information you give me, I would say that is not a disorder. He sounds like a variant of normal. It only becomes a disorder if it impairs his ability to function in society and get along with others. I am very careful not to throw out diagnosis. I am inclined to reserve all judgements. Everybody is different, complex, and has a unique history. My goal in diagnosis is to help peope better understand and get better. That is why I stopped doing forensic work, some people in that field try to manipulate diagnosis for punishment or exemption.

    RelevantChair: You are most welcome! The conversation has been enjoyable.

    Crispin
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  11. #11
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    I don't think anyone is attacking the mentally ill when they simply suggest they should not be allowed access to firearms. And there are different degrees of mental illness, some worthy of supervision like that, and some not. What is lacking is the system to make those determinations. And paranoia also applies to those who think imaginary foes are after them and their guns. When the same people who own guns start displaying traits that are associated with serious mental illness, should nothing be done at all? Should those warning signs and red flags being waved around just be ignored, yes or no? And if your child was at the muzzle of their gun, would your answer still be the same?
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  12. #12
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    Moving forward! "WP"

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    Thanks Crispin, I have suspected he might have a disorder for a long time as it has affected every aspect of his life several divorces, cheating on wife, job to job and lots of personal conflict. I just kind of wanted your thoughts and can appreciate not wanting to throw out diagnosis.
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselram94 View Post
    Thanks Crispin, I have suspected he might have a disorder for a long time as it has affected every aspect of his life several divorces, cheating on wife, job to job and lots of personal conflict. I just kind of wanted your thoughts and can appreciate not wanting to throw out diagnosis.
    Agree with "C"; e-diagnosis is NOT professional w/o seeing/hearing the person... AND! SOME ppl just have cognitive disabilities, emotional disabilities, that may APPEAR to be mental disabilities/illness. ANYONE can "google" Cognitive Disabilities, Emotional Disabilities... It is the GUN CULTURE/CULT, that is the problem. (MHO).
    Last edited by Rebel - KGC; Jan 17, 2013 at 08:34 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleMatt View Post
    I don't think anyone is attacking the mentally ill when they simply suggest they should not be allowed access to firearms. And there are different degrees of mental illness, some worthy of supervision like that, and some not. What is lacking is the system to make those determinations. And paranoia also applies to those who think imaginary foes are after them and their guns. When the same people who own guns start displaying traits that are associated with serious mental illness, should nothing be done at all? Should those warning signs and red flags being waved around just be ignored, yes or no? And if your child was at the muzzle of their gun, would your answer still be the same?
    Matt people defending their rights under Bill of Rights is not paronia.

    Keep the gun control debate out of Crispins post here unless he brings it in.

    There can be discussions, but there will be no attacks in the discussions as in the past.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel - KGC View Post

    Agree with "C"; e-diagnosis is NOT professional w/o seeing/hearing the person... AND! SOME ppl just have cognitive disabilities, emotional disabilities, that may APPEAR to be mental disabilities/illness. ANYONE can "google" Cognitive Disabilities, Emotional Disabilities... It is the GUN CULTURE/CULT, that is the problem. (MHO).
    Rebel the "gun culture / cult" is not the problem people that put people they do not agree with in a little box and assign a insulting name as you have just done IS the real proplem.....
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