Folks, A question on the right to bear arms......

[bill from lachine]

Folks,

I've posted various comments on the right to bear arms threads....being a Canuck I come at the subject from a bit of a different mind set.....

Somewhat to the risk to my own safety on occasion I might add.....lol

That said.....I've seen various posts referring to the US public having the right to bear arms against the possible tyranny of their own government....

A question for you all.....is that actually spelt out anywhere in the Bill of Rights, Amendments, Supreme Court rulings.....or is this just supposition....please educate me on the finer points of this amendment.....your input is appreciated.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

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[GrizLeeBear]

It is in the Constitution in the wording of the Second Ammendment. It is also in the many writings of the founding fathers. "...being necessary to the security of a free state..." The words FREE STATE speak to your point. We are slowly losing many of our rights through a process of accretion that began in about 1960. They take one little bite at a time hoping no one will notice. Every once in a while we look up and many rights are gone. Taxes always go up and fredoms always disappear.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Annotated Constitution Prototype

 

[dieselram94]

Bill, you being in Canada why exactly do you care if we have guns? A stray bullet won't travel that far you know!

 

[Crispin]

DieselRam: I don't think Bill is worried about his own safety so much as his friends that live in Florida.

 

[Red James Cash]

I think bill should be thinking that if the U.S. goes Canada wont be far behind.

 

[calisdad]

The 2nd amendment doesn't establish the right to keep and bare arms it recognizes it.

 

[Crispin]

Nah, Canada is too cold. Nobody in their right mind would want to invade and take over it. They would commit themselves to shoveling snow...not a pleasant endeavor.

 

[bevo]

griz said it!

 

[bevo]

shall not be infringed!

 

[Fitzwilk]

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson
"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson
"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams
"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason
"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster
"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster
"A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace."
- James Madison
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison
"The ultimate authority resides in the people alone."
- James Madison
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee
"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry
"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker
"... arms ... discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story
"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts
" ... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton

 

[releventchair]

Nah, Canada is too cold. Nobody in their right mind would want to invade and take over it. They would commit themselves to shoveling snow...not a pleasant endeavor.

But they have oil!

 

[Crispin]

griz said it!

Griz interpretated the constitution. In my world, only the US Supreme Court has the right to do that. Anybody who interprets the US constitution for themselves; regardless of how they phrase or label it, borders on sedition and treason. You put 10 different doctors in a room and you end up getting 11 different opinions. The same can be said for patriots...let us not forget how many illegitmate children our founding fathers had with slaves. They recognized thier mortality and humanity. They desired to put the control of law beyond any one person's interpretation.

Crisp

 

[Red James Cash]

Four words,minerals deposits and oil.Bye bye Canada

 

[dieselram94]

Nah, Canada is too cold. Nobody in their right mind would want to invade and take over it. They would commit themselves to shoveling snow...not a pleasant endeavor.

I can vouch for that! Anyone want to buy a house in Maine on over 5 acres? Just kidding but not by much!

 

[bill from lachine]

Crispin,

So true......heck I'll make you a swap.....you get the snow and I get Red.....heck on second thought maybe I'll take the snow...lol...

Regards + HH

Bill

Nah, Canada is too cold. Nobody in their right mind would want to invade and take over it. They would commit themselves to shoveling snow...not a pleasant endeavor.

 

[Fitzwilk]

Griz interpretated the constitution. In my world, only the US Supreme Court has the right to do that. Anybody who interprets the US constitution for themselves; regardless of how they phrase or label it, borders on sedition and treason. You put 10 different doctors in a room and you end up getting 11 different opinions. The same can be said for patriots...let us not forget how many illegitmate children our founding fathers had with slaves. They recognized thier mortality and humanity. They desired to put the control of law beyond any one person's interpretation.

Crisp

Supreme Court cases that cite “natural born Citizen” as one born on U.S. soil to citizen parents:
The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)
Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says: “The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.


Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 3 Pet. 242 242 (1830)
Ann Scott was born in South Carolina before the American revolution, and her father adhered to the American cause and remained and was at his death a citizen of South Carolina. There is no dispute that his daughter Ann, at the time of the Revolution and afterwards, remained in South Carolina until December, 1782. Whether she was of age during this time does not appear. If she was, then her birth and residence might be deemed to constitute her by election a citizen of South Carolina. If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country. Her citizenship, then, being prima facie established, and indeed this is admitted in the pleadings, has it ever been lost, or was it lost before the death of her father, so that the estate in question was, upon the descent cast, incapable of vesting in her? Upon the facts stated, it appears to us that it was not lost and that she was capable of taking it at the time of the descent cast.


Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857)
The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.' Again: 'I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country. . . .


Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)
The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.


United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)
At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.


Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939),
Was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that a child born in the United States to naturalized parents on U.S. soil is a natural born citizen and that the child's natural born citizenship is not lost if the child is taken to and raised in the country of the parents' origin, provided that upon attaining the age of majority, the child elects to retain U.S. citizenship "and to return to the United States to assume its duties." Not only did the court rule that she did not lose her native born Citizenship but it upheld the lower courts decision that she is a "natural born Citizen of the United States" because she was born in the USA to two naturalized U.S. Citizens.
But the Secretary of State, according to the allegation of the bill of complaint, had refused to issue a passport to Miss Elg 'solely on the ground that she had lost her native born American citizenship.' The court below, properly recognizing the existence of an actual controversy with the defendants [307 U.S. 325, 350] (Aetna Life Ins. Co. v. Haworth, 300 U.S. 227 , 57 S.Ct. 461, 108 A.L.R. 1000), declared Miss Elg 'to be a natural born citizen of the United States' (99 F.2d 414) and we think that the decree should include the Secretary of State as well as the other defendants. The decree in that sense would in no way interfere with the exercise of the Secretary's discretion with respect to the issue of a passport but would simply preclude the denial of a passport on the sole ground that Miss Elg had lost her American citizenship."


The Supreme Court of the United States has never applied the term “natural born citizen” to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”.

 

[bevo]

fitz you said it again,how come nobody gets it.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Folks,

I've posted various comments on the right to bear arms threads....being a Canuck I come at the subject from a bit of a different mind set.....

Somewhat to the risk to my own safety on occasion I might add.....lol

That said.....I've seen various posts referring to the US public having the right to bear arms against the possible tyranny of their own government....

A question for you all.....is that actually spelt out anywhere in the Bill of Rights, Amendments, Supreme Court rulings.....or is this just supposition....please educate me on the finer points of this amendment.....your input is appreciated.

Regards + HH

Bill

2ND Amendment "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


"No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. . . . The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."

"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."

Thomas Jefferson Third President of the United States

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence."
-George Washington First President of the United States

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
-Noah Webster

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all forms of positive government."
Federalist Paper No. 28, Alexander Hamilton

 

[Red James Cash]

fitz you said it again,how come nobody gets it.

Blind to the facts while absorbing the light of ignorance.