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  1. #16
    us
    Jun 2012
    Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Maven View Post
    To each his own, but I personally have never understood arguing for arguments sake.

    If you believe something, and want to speak out against the other side great. To be able to flip from one side to the other, just to get a rise out of someone seems pointless.

    There is probably a debate website out there smmewhere.
    It is an intellectual thing...don't worry about it.

    We are clearly not trying to get a rise out of anybody. I have explicitly stated the purpose of this thread and narrowly defined the rules. Methinks, the person trying to get a rise of of people is you...

  2. #17
    us
    Voice of Reason?

    Nov 2012
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    1,420
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    Guns kill people, and people kill people. We can only hope to control both.
    Quote Originally Posted by 0121stockpicker View Post
    That's love me.

    Ok ill start.

    A secret government conspiracy is robbing us of our god given rights. Prove that this is absolutely wrong??
    You can not prove a negative. As the person proposing a positive statement, you have to prove it is correct.

  3. #18

    Dec 2012
    MXT-PRO Sandshark
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    < wants his cake and to eat it
    I think it's a Constitutional right to own guns. However, I'm not all that keen on someone I might anger having a 50 cal machine gun on his car. Or landmines or grenades, or rpg's. So my reading is the Fed has the right to some regulation.
    And so far, I don't know of them randomly invading citizens houses to take or even register guns.

  4. #19
    us
    Voice of Reason?

    Nov 2012
    Thousand Oaks, CA
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    Guns kill people, and people kill people. We can only hope to control both.
    Quote Originally Posted by BosnMate View Post
    We aren't talking about religion, and we are not talking about being biblically technical, we are talking about how we got our rights, our rights as citizens of the United States of America. Perhaps I'm wrong, but somehow I got the idea that the 2nd amendment is involved in this discussion. So getting back to rights, the Constitution, written by Christian men that believed the PEOPLE have RIGHTS that are NOT granted by the government, but are granted by God. I'm not here to argue about that either, I'm making a statement, which follows: if you don't believe in God, then you must believe that the government grants the people their rights. If God grants a right, then no mere bureaucrat has the authority to take it away, but if the politicians make a law that gives the people a right, then they can and will take it away. I believe God granted our rights, and I'm willing to die for that belief, but I'm not interested in talking or arguing about religion or answering any of your inane questions about mountains. I believe that I have a God given right to be armed, and one way or another I'll take that belief to the grave, and I'm done talking, it's locked and loaded.
    Sorry, you do not have to believe in god to believe that rights exist outside of the governments ability to grant them. Being HUMAN gives me basic HUMAN rights. They are not Granted, they are inherent in my being human. I can cede these rights willingly or unwillingly to others or to the government. The government may demand that I forgo a right for the "Greater Good." I then need to decide if that is a society that I wish to continue living in. I can decide if I need to fight against the government for my right. God need not enter into the equation.
    Crispin and arnofarrell like this.

  5. #20
    us
    Voice of Reason?

    Nov 2012
    Thousand Oaks, CA
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    Guns kill people, and people kill people. We can only hope to control both.
    Quote Originally Posted by arnofarrell View Post
    I am on the side of 2nd amendment.
    I am an Athiest and believe alot of what Bosnmate is true. I may not believe in a god but I still believe we have the right to bear arms which is given by the Constitition. I guess I am not a sterotypical Athiest who hates all religions and make fun of them, I am just a man who doesn't believe in a god. Simple as that. I beleive people can believe what ever they want to believe.

    Guns are our friends and we need them. I hunt ever year and I shoot quite often. I may have an assault rifle but I seem to have lost it, LOL. It just disapeared. Anyways guns might not be liked by a few but I can almost gurantee those people have never shot a gun. I watch the news and they talk about guns and how scary they are, that is because they have never fired one. It is alot of fun and everyone should try it. We should all try something once.
    I am also an Atheist. I believe you are wrong. The Constitution does not GIVE us out rights, our rights are the rights we are born with by virtue of our being human. The constitution and the bill of rights were written by men who wished to try to express those rights that people must have in order to live happy and free. It doesn't matter if they were religious or not, it doesn't matter what they believed. They were expressing those rights necessary for humans to exist together and in a state of satisfaction.

  6. #21
    us
    Voice of Reason?

    Nov 2012
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    1,420
    926 times
    Guns kill people, and people kill people. We can only hope to control both.
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-gordon View Post
    < wants his cake and to eat it
    I think it's a Constitutional right to own guns. However, I'm not all that keen on someone I might anger having a 50 cal machine gun on his car. Or landmines or grenades, or rpg's. So my reading is the Fed has the right to some regulation.
    And so far, I don't know of them randomly invading citizens houses to take or even register guns.
    Here is the sticking point for me. I agree with you. I do not want people owning land mines, bombs, RPG's and so on. Then again, I basically agree that the 2nd amendment is a specific right to rebellion. A right of Revolution. Self Protection against criminals is really secondary to the intent and function of the 2nd amendment. Then again, do I want clinically insane people getting weapons at the drop of a hat? Do I want Dangerous convicted criminals getting high explosives? It seems that naturally, the 2nd amendment needs restriction and that some of us, due to our actions, have caused a situation where the society through the government has to take the initiative to exclude us from some of our basic human rights, including and specifically the right to rebellion. Then again, if the government is allowed the right to exclude people from that right, does the right exist at all? The government would obviously see anyone who wished to end the government (even for valid reasons) as a threat and exclude their basic rights... which means that as soon as you give the government the right to exclude some from their right to rebellion, the right ceases to exist in any meaningful way. I can see the argument for all or nothing. Let Joe communist buy high caliber machine guns and RPG. It is his right to rebellion. Is it all or nothing? I am very split on this.
    Crispin and arnofarrell like this.

  7. #22
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2006
    Florida
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    BoR was written to guarantee government did not try to trample on rights we are born with.
    dieselram94 likes this.
    PLEASE READ OUR RULES. CLICK HERE TO READ ------> TreasureNet.com Rules

    2nd Amendment
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war!

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    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

    No Expiration Date!

  8. #23
    us
    Aug 2012
    New Mexico USA
    My Head
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    Any ideas about "God's will" are based on assumption. Any ideas about God's involvement in our Constitution are also assumption. The ideas of Life, liberty, and the pursuit happiness are either inspired by God (Gods) or a utopian ideal or just a guy that thought it sounded cool. As more laws fill up our libraries the more we will experience loss of those ideals as most laws are about limiting them.
    The 2nd will always be redefined as a limiting of that liberty.
    A Dylan song has a line "Even the pawn must hold a grudge" Many arguments about the 2nd sound similar.
    A society will attempt to preserve itself by what ever means necessary. Radicals beware!
    The mindset that seems to inspire the radical support of the 2nd is anarchy. The only Law is that there should be no Law. Welcome to the jungle.
    Crispin likes this.

  9. #24
    us
    Moving forward! "WP"

    Jun 2011
    Mid Coast Maine
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    As most know, I am on the pro gun side.
    To give up or severely diminish a right because of the actions of a minute few is foolish. It plays right into Saul Alinski's book Rules for Radicals, "Never let a crises go to waste"

    Something to think about......
    Restore Freedom and get us out of the UNITED NATIONS NOW!!!!!!
    NOT a member of the recipient class...
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  10. #25
    us
    Moving forward! "WP"

    Jun 2011
    Mid Coast Maine
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    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Crispin, you mentioned all citizens should have access to firearms. That gets into the criminals getting them. To this I say why are they out and about free and not in prison somewhere? I don't think any reasonable person wants criminals to have guns. But the reality is legal or not they will have them. Laws only effect the lawful portion of our society. This should make a interesting thread.....
    Restore Freedom and get us out of the UNITED NATIONS NOW!!!!!!
    NOT a member of the recipient class...
    plp1.org

  11. #26
    us
    Just another Guy In Back

    Feb 2007
    The Mangrove Coast
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    I have, and carry, a firearm for personal protection.

    If I have to shoot someone, they should stay shot. No medical attention, no doctors trying to fix 'em.
    Get up late... Start slow... Taper off...

    I am a second level vegetarian. Cow's eat grass. I eat cows.

  12. #27
    us
    Jun 2012
    Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselram94 View Post
    Crispin, you mentioned all citizens should have access to firearms. That gets into the criminals getting them. To this I say why are they out and about free and not in prison somewhere? I don't think any reasonable person wants criminals to have guns. But the reality is legal or not they will have them. Laws only effect the lawful portion of our society. This should make a interesting thread.....
    I'm switching sides again...now I am progun.

    Criminals are defined based on societal norms and laws. As Hvacker and dejahpooh have pointed out, the action of being of MAN fundamentally gives us the right to rebel against or leave the society. Exile is not an option for people who have broken the laws of society and no longer have a desire to stay in it. The only other result is punishment...ie...prison. Our prisons are not rehab facilities; nor, in my opinion, should they be. My idea of a criminal may be fundamentally different from what others are. The laws of our government do not supercede the constitution and BoR. The BoR does not define criminals...that changes based on time and society. Slavery is a great example. Civil rights, women's rights, you know the drill. Therefore, what may be criminal at one moment can be totally legal the next. Hence, I reject labeling people as criminal as justification to deny them the right to bear arms.

    Criminals serve their time and do their punishment. When they are returned to society they should be afforded the same basic rights of the BoR. Do we stop allowing criminals free speech? Do we stop letting criminals from having any of the other amendments? Cherry picking the 2nd amendment from criminals is fundamentally flawed.

    If society does not want criminals to have access to guns then the solution is either the death penalty or life in prison for violent crimes. This would stop them from getting a gun again. Setting up parameters like 'mentally insane' or 'criminal' does nothing more then stigmatize individuals and chip away at the second amendment.

    Crispin
    arnofarrell likes this.

  13. #28
    us
    Jun 2012
    Central Florida
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    Out of curiosity. If somebody entered your house and attacked you or your family....and you responded by shooting them in the chest...and they were completely incapacitated...would you put a bullet in that person's head to finish them off? Would you shoot them again in the heart? Would you delay calling 911 until that person died? There is a fine line between self defense and murder. Our constitution does not give us the right to murder.

    Crisp
    arnofarrell likes this.

  14. #29
    us
    Voice of Reason?

    Nov 2012
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    1,420
    926 times
    Guns kill people, and people kill people. We can only hope to control both.
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Any ideas about "God's will" are based on assumption. Any ideas about God's involvement in our Constitution are also assumption. The ideas of Life, liberty, and the pursuit happiness are either inspired by God (Gods) or a utopian ideal or just a guy that thought it sounded cool. As more laws fill up our libraries the more we will experience loss of those ideals as most laws are about limiting them.
    The 2nd will always be redefined as a limiting of that liberty.
    A Dylan song has a line "Even the pawn must hold a grudge" Many arguments about the 2nd sound similar.
    A society will attempt to preserve itself by what ever means necessary. Radicals beware!
    The mindset that seems to inspire the radical support of the 2nd is anarchy. The only Law is that there should be no Law. Welcome to the jungle.
    "Life Liberty and Happiness" is Thomas Jefferson's propagandized version of "Life, Liberty, and Property" Written by John Loche. Jefferson was working with/for the rich in order for them to protect themselves from taxes that hit THEM rather than taxes that taxed the poor. Who used paper, which was taxed by the stamp tax? The rich read newspapers and books. The Rich signed contracts, and land agreements. The Tea Tax? The rich drank tea, the poor were forced to drink ale, beer, or heaven forbid... WATER (gross). The Tax revolt that was the American Revolution was a process of the rich duping the poor into fighting their war for them. The poor would have been better off with the British taxes on Luxury, rather than the Tariffs the US survived on, which taxed the Products the poor used in order to protect the Rich's industry.
    hvacker likes this.

  15. #30
    us
    Jun 2012
    Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by onfire View Post
    Ok Crisp Medical question (Debatable??) Drug studies, When you get a prescription you receive a read out of all the side effects Well how did they determine these, are people just Ginny pigs for a few $$$ some even say death can occur Did some one die from these.

    I once was told to take Plavix a blood thinning slicker I was told that I would have to be on it for life. While being in the hospital I was approached to be in a study After one year I would either receive a plavix or a placebo pill. So I asked if I got a placebo and I died would I be the one they were talking about in the side effects?


    I declined and stayed on the slicker, after about 2 months I was prospecting in arz. and got tangled in some devil thorns and almost bled to death. So I started cayenne pepper and via. C. No problems Rainbow blood test are all positive.

    So I'm asking are these worth it?
    Onfire: There is a fierce debate on usage of Plavix. I am not expert enough in that area to advise.

    As to Side Effect lists: It is mostly cover my azz legal garbage. They do studies with 1000s of people for six months at a time. If anybody reports a symptom at any point in time during that six months it becomes a side effect. What are the chances that 1000 people go six months without a headache? What are the chances that 1000 people go six months without diarrhea or constipation. The FDA has made side effect lists a laughing stock, they are best to be ignored. Before you start taking a medication, ask your doctor what the COMMON side effects are. For SSRIs, the only COMMON side effect is anorgasmia.

    Crispin

 

 
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