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  1. #16
    PBK
    PBK is offline

    May 2005
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    The Confederate States of America's national flags and battle flag have been much maligned, misunderstood, and misused.

    I have no intention of being drawn into a debate about any or all of them, but I will say this: whatever else they may represent to others, they are undeniably historically significant symbols of the South— and the South means a very great deal to me indeed.

    No doubt those in other regions feel the same devotion to their homeland, and I respect them for it; but my own sentiments are best expressed by Edward Ward Carmack's "Pledge to the South," from a speech which he delivered in the U.S. House of Representatives:

    "The South is a land that has known sorrows;
    it is a land that has broken the ashen crust and
    moistened it with tears; a land scarred and riven
    by the plowshare of war and billowed with the
    graves of her dead; but a land of legend,
    a land of song, a land of hallowed and heroic
    memories.

    "To that land every drop of my blood, every
    fiber of my being, every pulsation of my heart,
    is consecrated forever. I was born of her womb;
    I was nurtured at her breast; and when my last
    hour shall come, I pray God that I may be
    pillowed upon her bosom and rocked to sleep
    within her tender and encircling arms."


  2. #17
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Have fun:
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  3. #18
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    My wife had one of those girly jewelry parties a few weeks ago and a black lady oh Im sorry an African American lady was coming and in my living room I have a display case with some of my civil war relics in it and also has some in general civil war memorabilia and there is several confederate flags in the display case. She had the nerve to ask me if we should remove them before she got there. I said absolutely not! If she is offended that is because of her own stupidity and narrow minded thinking! She came, nothing was said but if there was something said I had a whole speech ready for her.

    I have never seen a race of people so scared of there past. They act like that flag is going to do them bodily harm! Like it or not it is part of there past same as it is mine. Look at it this way, what do the Jewish people do about there horrible past? They do not try to cover up images of what they have been through. They have opened museums to educate there younger generation and the world for that matter about what they have gone through to become who they are today.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

    KFB
    KINDAFOUNDABUCKLE

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    Re: Confederate Flag

    To call the Stars and Bars racist is total crapola...Slavery was practiced and totally accepted by many of the founding fathers and was in practice when this country was founded and on going before the civil war in both the South AND North. Thus if the Stars and Bars are racist then so are the Stars and Stripes. The Civil War started over state rights and tarrifs....slavery was NOT an issue or a cause for the start of the war. Neither side was initially fighting to free or hold the slaves. In fact once slavery became an issue later in the war many Union soldiers deserted or threatened to desert. The abolitionists made slavery a cause, but it was not the reason the war started. The only time it should (and is) be illegal to fly the Confederate flag (or any other flag) is if it is flown over the Stars and Stripes.
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  5. #20
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    "Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable and most sacred right - a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can may revolutionize and make their own of so many of the territory as they inhabit.

    Abraham Lincoln
    January 12, 1848.
    La défaut du mien! La Beep

  6. #21
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mainedigger
    To call the Stars and Bars racist is total crapola...Slavery was practiced and totally accepted by many of the founding fathers and was in practice when this country was founded and on going before the civil war in both the South AND North. Thus if the Stars and Bars are racist then so are the Stars and Stripes. The Civil War started over state rights and tarrifs....slavery was NOT an issue or a cause for the start of the war. Neither side was initially fighting to free or hold the slaves. In fact once slavery became an issue later in the war many Union soldiers deserted or threatened to desert. The abolitionists made slavery a cause, but it was not the reason the war started. The only time it should (and is) be illegal to fly the Confederate flag (or any other flag) is if it is flown over the Stars and Stripes.
    Could I kindly clarify two things?  First, the Confederate Flag pictured above is Not the "Stars and Bars."  The Stars and Bars were actually the first National Flag of the Confederacy.  It had three stipes and seven stars, keeping the same general look as the the North's flag during the same time.  (More stars were added as more states seceeded.) 

    You are absolutely correct in that the CW was fought over states' rights--the main one being whether states could choose whether they wanted to be "slave states" or "free states" and whether territories could choose--and believe me, the white plantation owners wanted them to be slave states--as many as possible from the new West which had just opened up.  Part of this was because the South got more representation based on population which included their slave "property," even when that "property" couldn't vote.  So just to make it clear--Slavery wasn't the specific issue--but the ability for the South to dominate the Union in terms of representation, power, and economy through the spread of slavery was.  (Look at how many of the first 10 Presidents were from Slave States, for example.)  As I recall, the South also produced over 80% of the World's cotton on the eve of the war.  The power struggle had been festering for decades--a complicated issue that was economic, social, and within the last three decades before the war--moral as well (due to the Abolitionists and their sympathizers).  The Founding Fathers were aware of this, even though most of them held slaves.  There had always been an intentionally even balance between slave and free states in the Union, as new states were formed. 

    States' and Territories rights to choose for themselves about Slavery was one of the BIG platform issues for both parties in the election of 1860.  If you read Lincoln's "A House Divided" speech, that is clear--and of course it is all over the contemporary Democrats' speeches.  Remember the Missouri Compromise?  Bleeding Kansas?  The right to choose upset the balance in power--in effect since the country's founding--and both sides North and South (which had traditionally been polarized by their differences in economy as well as their stance on Slavery and "property") began to see the other as attacking or defending the institution of slavery.  Slaveholders rushed westward both for the new, cheap land, and also to ensure that the political machinery was in place for the state to choose to be a Slave State.  For the South, this was not an issue of "property"--but one of economic independence and power!  The Supreme Court and Federal Government had already upheld the South's rights to "slave property" in the Dred Scott decision.  And the institution of slavery was in no way in immediate danger in the South (to threaten that in peacetime would've been a serious economic blunder for the economy of the Union as a whole).  So in that regard, the issue of slavery cannot be listed as a "cause" for the war, as you've said--However, the aversion of many in the North to allowing the institution to expand throughout the West was seen as a trampling of the South's rights to self-governance and power in government.

    And you are correct that the Abolitionists--especially Douglass and John Brown--polarized the public even more on the issue. 

    One of the primary causes of the war was actually Lincoln's election to office itself.  Southern States saw the election results as the end of their rights--as well as their domination of the political and economic scene--in part because of the growing concern on both sides about the future of slavery (and with it, economy, property, lifestyle, wealth, and political monopoly by plantation owners).  Most of the states that seceeded did so in the months immediately following the election, before Lincoln was actually sworn in.

    While I can't sympathize with the Causes of the South's secession--I can CERTAINLY admire the courage and bravery it took to do so in the face of such odds.




    P.S.--

    The quote from Lincoln in the reply above this one is pretty cool...  I didn't know that one--but he was right about the principles in that quote.  LOL  Kind of interesting in light of that quote the fact that he let the secession happen peacefully (even though he did denounce the right to seceed in his first inaugural speech! ).


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  7. #22
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckleBoy
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainedigger
    To call the Stars and Bars racist is total crapola...Slavery was practiced and totally accepted by many of the founding fathers and was in practice when this country was founded and on going before the civil war in both the South AND North. Thus if the Stars and Bars are racist then so are the Stars and Stripes. The Civil War started over state rights and tarrifs....slavery was NOT an issue or a cause for the start of the war. Neither side was initially fighting to free or hold the slaves. In fact once slavery became an issue later in the war many Union soldiers deserted or threatened to desert. The abolitionists made slavery a cause, but it was not the reason the war started. The only time it should (and is) be illegal to fly the Confederate flag (or any other flag) is if it is flown over the Stars and Stripes.
    Could I kindly clarify two things? First, the Confederate Flag pictured above is Not the "Stars and Bars." The Stars and Bars were actually the first National Flag of the Confederacy. It had three stipes and seven stars, keeping the same general look as the the North's flag during the same time. (More stars were added as more states seceeded.)

    You are absolutely correct in that the CW was fought over states' rights--the main one being whether states could choose whether they wanted to be "slave states" or "free states" and whether territories could choose--and believe me, the white plantation owners wanted them to be slave states--as many as possible from the new West which had just opened up. Part of this was because the South got more representation based on population which included their slave "property," even when that "property" couldn't vote. So just to make it clear--Slavery wasn't the specific issue--but the ability for the South to dominate the Union in terms of representation, power, and economy through the spread of slavery was. (Look at how many of the first 10 Presidents were from Slave States, for example.) As I recall, the South also produced over 80% of the World's cotton on the eve of the war. The power struggle had been festering for decades--a complicated issue that was economic, social, and within the last three decades before the war--moral as well (due to the Abolitionists and their sympathizers). The Founding Fathers were aware of this, even though most of them held slaves. There had always been an intentionally even balance between slave and free states in the Union, as new states were formed.

    States' and Territories rights to choose for themselves about Slavery was one of the BIG platform issues for both parties in the election of 1860. If you read Lincoln's "A House Divided" speech, that is clear--and of course it is all over the contemporary Democrats' speeches. Remember the Missouri Compromise? Bleeding Kansas? The right to choose upset the balance in power--in effect since the country's founding--and both sides North and South (which had traditionally been polarized by their differences in economy as well as their stance on Slavery and "property") began to see the other as attacking or defending the institution of slavery. Slaveholders rushed westward both for the new, cheap land, and also to ensure that the political machinery was in place for the state to choose to be a Slave State. For the South, this was not an issue of "property"--but one of economic independence and power! The Supreme Court and Federal Government had already upheld the South's rights to "slave property" in the Dred Scott decision. And the institution of slavery was in no way in immediate danger in the South (to threaten that in peacetime would've been a serious economic blunder for the economy of the Union as a whole). So in that regard, the issue of slavery cannot be listed as a "cause" for the war, as you've said--However, the aversion of many in the North to allowing the institution to expand throughout the West was seen as a trampling of the South's rights to self-governance and power in government.

    And you are correct that the Abolitionists--especially Douglass and John Brown--polarized the public even more on the issue.

    One of the primary causes of the war was actually Lincoln's election to office itself. Southern States saw the election results as the end of their rights--as well as their domination of the political and economic scene--in part because of the growing concern on both sides about the future of slavery (and with it, economy, property, lifestyle, wealth, and political monopoly by plantation owners). Most of the states that seceeded did so in the months immediately following the election, before Lincoln was actually sworn in.

    While I can't sympathize with the Causes of the South's secession--I can CERTAINLY admire the courage and bravery it took to do so in the face of such odds.




    P.S.--

    The quote from Lincoln in the reply above this one is pretty cool... I didn't know that one--but he was right about the principles in that quote. LOL Kind of interesting in light of that quote the fact that he let the secession happen peacefully (even though he did denounce the right to seceed in his first inaugural speech! ).


    -Buckleboy
    Thats what I was going to say!
    KINDAFOUNDABUCKLE

  8. #23
    us
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    "The Union, in any event, won't be dissolved. We don't want to dissolve it, and if you attempt it, we won't let you. With the purse and sword, the army and navy and treasury in our hands and at our command, you couldn't do it.... We do not want to dissolve the Union; you shall not." ~ Lincoln, in a campaign speech in Galena, Illinois, Aug. 1 1856.
    La défaut du mien! La Beep

  9. #24

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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckleBoy

    Could I kindly clarify two things? First, the Confederate Flag pictured above is Not the "Stars and Bars." The Stars and Bars were actually the first National Flag of the Confederacy. It had three stipes and seven stars, keeping the same general look as the the North's flag during the same time. (More stars were added as more states seceeded.)

    -Buckleboy
    Buckleboy...I wasn;t aware of that...thanks much for clarifying it, I appreciate it!! I kinda like that original flag as well and it for whatever reason has been kind of "forgotten" when Confederate flags are thought of and the other version being the more popular. I also thank you for pointing out that the correct version of that flag is acutally square.....that is something else I wasn't aware of, guess I was seated firmly on the misconception band wagon on that one as well..
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  10. #25

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    Re: Confederate Flag

    "The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of Free White people"
    --- Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854.

    Lincoln may later have wanted to free the slaves, but he was a BIG fan of Henry Clays "colonization" plan and wanted them shipped to a colony some where. Thus his plans to free them had NOTHING to do with him thinking of them as equals or of his not being racist.

    Lincoln held a meeting with free black leaders and implored them to lead a colonization movement back to Africa. He developed plans to send every last black person to Africa, Haiti, Central America...anywhere but the United States. (From the book "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo)
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  11. #26
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by La Beep
    "The Union, in any event, won't be dissolved. We don't want to dissolve it, and if you attempt it, we won't let you. With the purse and sword, the army and navy and treasury in our hands and at our command, you couldn't do it.... We do not want to dissolve the Union; you shall not." ~ Lincoln, in a campaign speech in Galena, Illinois, Aug. 1 1856.
    Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions (like many politicians) :P.

    The statement above indicates that he will fight with the sword to preserve the Union.  In fact, Secession happened over several months and Lincoln did nothing in terms of the sword.  The South fired the first shots of the CW.  I can appreciate his tough political position though--the need to have the people of the North squarely behind him at the beginning was probably part of the reason he waited to be attacked first.

    Cool quote!


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  12. #27
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mainedigger
    "The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of Free White people"
    --- Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854.

    Lincoln may later have wanted to free the slaves, but he was a BIG fan of Henry Clays "colonization" plan and wanted them shipped to a colony some where. Thus his plans to free them had NOTHING to do with him thinking of them as equals or of his not being racist.

    Lincoln held a meeting with free black leaders and implored them to lead a colonization movement back to Africa. He developed plans to send every last black person to Africa, Haiti, Central America...anywhere but the United States. (From the book "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo)

    You're exactly right on Lincoln and colonization. And you are correct in that his plan to free the slaves had other motives--in part, it was a military tactic. Lincoln was a product of his age--but I also think he was more than that...whatever his stance on colonization before the war, I think he came to see himself as the Emancipator later on. I can't remember the quote from him, but something to the effect of "If History remembers me for anything, this will be it" (Emancipation). The quote you listed above--I don't know though... Taken out of context, it's hard to tell. The quote really says nothing about whether the states will be "Slave" or "Free." You follow? There were three general types of people which appear in speeches of this time, it seems: "Free Whites," "Free Blacks," and "Slaves." The new territories would be settled by "Free Whites" either way--so the speech may refer simply to Westward Expansion. This may also be a reference to the Native American uprisings of that era out West--and the statement then could be about using the territories for the homes of "Free Whites" rather than leaving them to the Indian population...I just don't know what shade of meaning the quote has, to be honest.


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  13. #28
    PBK
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckleBoy
    Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions
    He was indeed. For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
    38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

    These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.


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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by PBK
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckleBoy
    Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions
    He was indeed. For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
    38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

    These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.
    Yes, you're right! Lincoln did pretty much suspend the right of Habeas Corpus during wartime...of course, presidents have suspended it in many wars since--including this one.


    Southern sympathizers, or ones that didn't take an oath of allegiance to the Union were in many cases imprisoned or worse--not just military soldiers, but civilians too.
    2021 CaneField Bandits Totals:
    1820s-30s Gold Mourning Brooch
    Diamond solitaire ring from the beach
    GWI 17B George Washington Inaugural Button
    GWI 27A George Washington Inaugural Button
    engraved piece of a colonial era gold item
    c.1870-80 Otis A. Smith .32cal rimfire pistol
    bullet mold "MASS ARMS CO" for the .36cal Adams Patent Revolver
    South Pacific Coast Railroad Lock 1876-1887
    Two Louisiana pelican coat buttons
    hammer from a percussion double barrel shotgun
    Four cartridge box finials
    New York coat button
    Eagle Infantry cuff button
    Two eagle Infantry coat buttons
    Two general service eagle cuff buttons
    musket sling hook and trigger guard fragments
    1900-O Morgan Dollar
    1876-CC Seated Quarter
    1809 Classic Head Half Cent
    1845 Large Cent
    dateless half real
    1875, 1887 and one dateless Seated Dime
    1848, 1851, two 1851-O?s, 1855-O, two 1857-O, and one dateless half dime
    1895-S Barber Dime (dug by KFB) and 1907 Barber Dime
    1952 Roosevelt Dime
    Two silver thimbles
    Quarter ounce of melted silver from a planation site
    Antebellum silver ring fragment
    1850s silver twin heart ring
    Two Silver religious medallions
    Four 1943-P war nickels
    a dateless Mercury Dime
    Bronze figurine from a mid 1800s French mantle clock
    Minieballs, Beefaloes, V and Shield Nickels, and some GawGag

    OUR 2020 YEAR-END POST
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/20...ar-review.html

    OUR 2019 YEAR-END POST:
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/20...9-wrap-up.html

    OUR 2018 YEAR-END POST:
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/20...nths-late.html

    OUR 2017 YEAR-END POST:
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/to...ts-photos.html

    OUR 2016 YEAR-END POST:
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/20...ml#post5286759

    ARCHIVE OF EARLIER YEAR-END POSTS:
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/pe...ml#post6802200


    Any relics, coins, or other items appearing in my signatures were found on PRIVATE PROPERTY with total consent and permission from the owners of said property.

  15. #30
    Conservative Cherokee "WP" (Wolf Pack 4Ever)

    Jan 2008
    Louisiana
    Explorer II & Garrett 2500 w/Treasure Hound
    1,797
    109 times

    Re: Confederate Flag

    I myself am very proud of my Southern Heritage and the Confederate Flag. In today's world that makes me a racist, although I hate no man for the color of his skin. I do desspire some peoples chosen lifestyle. Don't give me that crap about they dont have a choice. We all have a choice to get off our lazy A$$ and work ourselves out of poverty. But then how would liberal politicians buy votes with Taxpayers funded welfare and social programs. Thanks for some of the good research that has been posted on this thread. Beepster when the weather cools and the ground gets a little moisture, lets go to digging again.

 

 
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