Confederate Flag

[BuckleBoy]

To call the Stars and Bars racist is total crapola...Slavery was practiced and totally accepted by many of the founding fathers and was in practice when this country was founded and on going before the civil war in both the South AND North. Thus if the Stars and Bars are racist then so are the Stars and Stripes. The Civil War started over state rights and tarrifs....slavery was NOT an issue or a cause for the start of the war. Neither side was initially fighting to free or hold the slaves. In fact once slavery became an issue later in the war many Union soldiers deserted or threatened to desert. The abolitionists made slavery a cause, but it was not the reason the war started. The only time it should (and is) be illegal to fly the Confederate flag (or any other flag) is if it is flown over the Stars and Stripes.

Could I kindly clarify two things?  First, the Confederate Flag pictured above is Not the "Stars and Bars."  The Stars and Bars were actually the first National Flag of the Confederacy.  It had three stipes and seven stars, keeping the same general look as the the North's flag during the same time.  (More stars were added as more states seceeded.) 

You are absolutely correct in that the CW was fought over states' rights--the main one being whether states could choose whether they wanted to be "slave states" or "free states" and whether territories could choose--and believe me, the white plantation owners wanted them to be slave states--as many as possible from the new West which had just opened up.  Part of this was because the South got more representation based on population which included their slave "property," even when that "property" couldn't vote.  So just to make it clear--Slavery wasn't the specific issue--but the ability for the South to dominate the Union in terms of representation, power, and economy through the spread of slavery was.  (Look at how many of the first 10 Presidents were from Slave States, for example.)  As I recall, the South also produced over 80% of the World's cotton on the eve of the war.  The power struggle had been festering for decades--a complicated issue that was economic, social, and within the last three decades before the war--moral as well (due to the Abolitionists and their sympathizers).  The Founding Fathers were aware of this, even though most of them held slaves.  There had always been an intentionally even balance between slave and free states in the Union, as new states were formed. 

States' and Territories rights to choose for themselves about Slavery was one of the BIG platform issues for both parties in the election of 1860.  If you read Lincoln's "A House Divided" speech, that is clear--and of course it is all over the contemporary Democrats' speeches.  Remember the Missouri Compromise?  Bleeding Kansas?  The right to choose upset the balance in power--in effect since the country's founding--and both sides North and South (which had traditionally been polarized by their differences in economy as well as their stance on Slavery and "property") began to see the other as attacking or defending the institution of slavery.  Slaveholders rushed westward both for the new, cheap land, and also to ensure that the political machinery was in place for the state to choose to be a Slave State.  For the South, this was not an issue of "property"--but one of economic independence and power!  The Supreme Court and Federal Government had already upheld the South's rights to "slave property" in the Dred Scott decision.  And the institution of slavery was in no way in immediate danger in the South (to threaten that in peacetime would've been a serious economic blunder for the economy of the Union as a whole).  So in that regard, the issue of slavery cannot be listed as a "cause" for the war, as you've said--However, the aversion of many in the North to allowing the institution to expand throughout the West was seen as a trampling of the South's rights to self-governance and power in government.

And you are correct that the Abolitionists--especially Douglass and John Brown--polarized the public even more on the issue. 

One of the primary causes of the war was actually Lincoln's election to office itself.  Southern States saw the election results as the end of their rights--as well as their domination of the political and economic scene--in part because of the growing concern on both sides about the future of slavery (and with it, economy, property, lifestyle, wealth, and political monopoly by plantation owners).  Most of the states that seceeded did so in the months immediately following the election, before Lincoln was actually sworn in.

While I can't sympathize with the Causes of the South's secession--I can CERTAINLY admire the courage and bravery it took to do so in the face of such odds.




P.S.--

The quote from Lincoln in the reply above this one is pretty cool...  I didn't know that one--but he was right about the principles in that quote.  LOL  Kind of interesting in light of that quote the fact that he let the secession happen peacefully (even though he did denounce the right to seceed in his first inaugural speech! ).


-Buckleboy 

 

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[kindafoundabuckle]

To call the Stars and Bars racist is total crapola...Slavery was practiced and totally accepted by many of the founding fathers and was in practice when this country was founded and on going before the civil war in both the South AND North. Thus if the Stars and Bars are racist then so are the Stars and Stripes. The Civil War started over state rights and tarrifs....slavery was NOT an issue or a cause for the start of the war. Neither side was initially fighting to free or hold the slaves. In fact once slavery became an issue later in the war many Union soldiers deserted or threatened to desert. The abolitionists made slavery a cause, but it was not the reason the war started. The only time it should (and is) be illegal to fly the Confederate flag (or any other flag) is if it is flown over the Stars and Stripes.

Could I kindly clarify two things? First, the Confederate Flag pictured above is Not the "Stars and Bars." The Stars and Bars were actually the first National Flag of the Confederacy. It had three stipes and seven stars, keeping the same general look as the the North's flag during the same time. (More stars were added as more states seceeded.)

You are absolutely correct in that the CW was fought over states' rights--the main one being whether states could choose whether they wanted to be "slave states" or "free states" and whether territories could choose--and believe me, the white plantation owners wanted them to be slave states--as many as possible from the new West which had just opened up. Part of this was because the South got more representation based on population which included their slave "property," even when that "property" couldn't vote. So just to make it clear--Slavery wasn't the specific issue--but the ability for the South to dominate the Union in terms of representation, power, and economy through the spread of slavery was. (Look at how many of the first 10 Presidents were from Slave States, for example.) As I recall, the South also produced over 80% of the World's cotton on the eve of the war. The power struggle had been festering for decades--a complicated issue that was economic, social, and within the last three decades before the war--moral as well (due to the Abolitionists and their sympathizers). The Founding Fathers were aware of this, even though most of them held slaves. There had always been an intentionally even balance between slave and free states in the Union, as new states were formed.

States' and Territories rights to choose for themselves about Slavery was one of the BIG platform issues for both parties in the election of 1860. If you read Lincoln's "A House Divided" speech, that is clear--and of course it is all over the contemporary Democrats' speeches. Remember the Missouri Compromise? Bleeding Kansas? The right to choose upset the balance in power--in effect since the country's founding--and both sides North and South (which had traditionally been polarized by their differences in economy as well as their stance on Slavery and "property") began to see the other as attacking or defending the institution of slavery. Slaveholders rushed westward both for the new, cheap land, and also to ensure that the political machinery was in place for the state to choose to be a Slave State. For the South, this was not an issue of "property"--but one of economic independence and power! The Supreme Court and Federal Government had already upheld the South's rights to "slave property" in the Dred Scott decision. And the institution of slavery was in no way in immediate danger in the South (to threaten that in peacetime would've been a serious economic blunder for the economy of the Union as a whole). So in that regard, the issue of slavery cannot be listed as a "cause" for the war, as you've said--However, the aversion of many in the North to allowing the institution to expand throughout the West was seen as a trampling of the South's rights to self-governance and power in government.

And you are correct that the Abolitionists--especially Douglass and John Brown--polarized the public even more on the issue.

One of the primary causes of the war was actually Lincoln's election to office itself. Southern States saw the election results as the end of their rights--as well as their domination of the political and economic scene--in part because of the growing concern on both sides about the future of slavery (and with it, economy, property, lifestyle, wealth, and political monopoly by plantation owners). Most of the states that seceeded did so in the months immediately following the election, before Lincoln was actually sworn in.

While I can't sympathize with the Causes of the South's secession--I can CERTAINLY admire the courage and bravery it took to do so in the face of such odds.




P.S.--

The quote from Lincoln in the reply above this one is pretty cool... I didn't know that one--but he was right about the principles in that quote. LOL Kind of interesting in light of that quote the fact that he let the secession happen peacefully (even though he did denounce the right to seceed in his first inaugural speech! ).


-Buckleboy

Thats what I was going to say!

 

[La Beep]

"The Union, in any event, won't be dissolved. We don't want to dissolve it, and if you attempt it, we won't let you. With the purse and sword, the army and navy and treasury in our hands and at our command, you couldn't do it.... We do not want to dissolve the Union; you shall not." ~ Lincoln, in a campaign speech in Galena, Illinois, Aug. 1 1856.

 

[Mainedigger]

Could I kindly clarify two things? First, the Confederate Flag pictured above is Not the "Stars and Bars." The Stars and Bars were actually the first National Flag of the Confederacy. It had three stipes and seven stars, keeping the same general look as the the North's flag during the same time. (More stars were added as more states seceeded.)

-Buckleboy

Buckleboy...I wasn;t aware of that...thanks much for clarifying it, I appreciate it!! I kinda like that original flag as well and it for whatever reason has been kind of "forgotten" when Confederate flags are thought of and the other version being the more popular. I also thank you for pointing out that the correct version of that flag is acutally square.....that is something else I wasn't aware of, guess I was seated firmly on the misconception band wagon on that one as well..
More proof that T-Net is very educational and its members are extremely knowledgable...

 

[Mainedigger]

"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of Free White people"
--- Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854.

Lincoln may later have wanted to free the slaves, but he was a BIG fan of Henry Clays "colonization" plan and wanted them shipped to a colony some where. Thus his plans to free them had NOTHING to do with him thinking of them as equals or of his not being racist.

Lincoln held a meeting with free black leaders and implored them to lead a colonization movement back to Africa. He developed plans to send every last black person to Africa, Haiti, Central America...anywhere but the United States. (From the book "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo)

 

[BuckleBoy]

"The Union, in any event, won't be dissolved. We don't want to dissolve it, and if you attempt it, we won't let you. With the purse and sword, the army and navy and treasury in our hands and at our command, you couldn't do it.... We do not want to dissolve the Union; you shall not." ~ Lincoln, in a campaign speech in Galena, Illinois, Aug. 1 1856.

Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions (like many politicians) :P.

The statement above indicates that he will fight with the sword to preserve the Union.  In fact, Secession happened over several months and Lincoln did nothing in terms of the sword.  The South fired the first shots of the CW.  I can appreciate his tough political position though--the need to have the people of the North squarely behind him at the beginning was probably part of the reason he waited to be attacked first.

Cool quote!


-Buckles

 

[BuckleBoy]

"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of Free White people"
--- Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854.

Lincoln may later have wanted to free the slaves, but he was a BIG fan of Henry Clays "colonization" plan and wanted them shipped to a colony some where. Thus his plans to free them had NOTHING to do with him thinking of them as equals or of his not being racist.

Lincoln held a meeting with free black leaders and implored them to lead a colonization movement back to Africa. He developed plans to send every last black person to Africa, Haiti, Central America...anywhere but the United States. (From the book "The Real Lincoln" by Thomas J. DiLorenzo)

You're exactly right on Lincoln and colonization. And you are correct in that his plan to free the slaves had other motives--in part, it was a military tactic. Lincoln was a product of his age--but I also think he was more than that...whatever his stance on colonization before the war, I think he came to see himself as the Emancipator later on. I can't remember the quote from him, but something to the effect of "If History remembers me for anything, this will be it" (Emancipation). The quote you listed above--I don't know though... Taken out of context, it's hard to tell. The quote really says nothing about whether the states will be "Slave" or "Free." You follow? There were three general types of people which appear in speeches of this time, it seems: "Free Whites," "Free Blacks," and "Slaves." The new territories would be settled by "Free Whites" either way--so the speech may refer simply to Westward Expansion. This may also be a reference to the Native American uprisings of that era out West--and the statement then could be about using the territories for the homes of "Free Whites" rather than leaving them to the Indian population...I just don't know what shade of meaning the quote has, to be honest.


-Buckles

 

[PBK]

Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions

He was indeed. For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions

He was indeed. For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.

Yes, you're right! Lincoln did pretty much suspend the right of Habeas Corpus during wartime...of course, presidents have suspended it in many wars since--including this one.


Southern sympathizers, or ones that didn't take an oath of allegiance to the Union were in many cases imprisoned or worse--not just military soldiers, but civilians too.

 

[GrayCloud]

I myself am very proud of my Southern Heritage and the Confederate Flag. In today's world that makes me a racist, although I hate no man for the color of his skin. I do desspire some peoples chosen lifestyle. Don't give me that crap about they dont have a choice. We all have a choice to get off our lazy A$$ and work ourselves out of poverty. But then how would liberal politicians buy votes with Taxpayers funded welfare and social programs. Thanks for some of the good research that has been posted on this thread. Beepster when the weather cools and the ground gets a little moisture, lets go to digging again.

 

[La Beep]

Yep Lincoln was brilliant but mad president.

On Secession:
"... the right of a state to secede from the Union [has been] settled forever by the highest tribunal – arms – that man can resort to." ~ Ulysses S. Grant's theory of constitutional law. Organized murder replaces reason.

On Blacks:
"Root, hog, or die" ~ Lincoln's suggestion to illiterate and propertyless ex-slaves unprepared for freedom, Feb. 3, 1865.

On the War:
"President Lincoln in deciding the Sumter question had adopted a simple but effective policy. To use his own words, he determined to "send bread to Anderson"; if the rebels fired on that, they would not be able to convince the world that he had begun the civil war." ~ The account of John G. Nicolay and John Hay, Lincoln's trusted confidential secretaries.

 

[La Beep]

Beepster when the weather cools and the ground gets a little moisture, lets go to digging again.

Waiting on gas money(stimulus check). Wifes in school now.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions

He was indeed. For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.

Yes PBK--he did authorize the hanging of the 38--but all were originally scheduled to be either hanged or imprisoned and then Lincoln commuted the sentences on the other 265 and let them go (if we want to look at the other side of the fact as well). I don't know on what charges the 38 were hanged--but now it's making me curious to find out...

 

[Montana Jim]

Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions

He was indeed.  For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.

Yes PBK--he did authorize the hanging of the 38--but all were originally scheduled to be either hanged or imprisoned and then Lincoln commuted the sentences on the other 265 and let them go (if we want to look at the other side of the fact as well).  I don't know on what charges the 38 were hanged--but now it's making me curious to find out...

Apparently for the theft of some eggs... The state called it an uprising when hunters went in search of food after the Indian Agents kept and sold the Indians food.

This source from the Indian's side of the story -
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html

 

[BuckleBoy]

Apparently for the theft of some eggs... The state called it an uprising when hunters went in search of food after the Indian Agents kept and sold the Indians food.

This source from the Indian's side of the story -
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html

wow.

 

[BIG61AL]

My ancestors fought under the German Flag of the third Reich....Do I get to diplay a flag with a swastika on my post?

Face it the Confederate flag is a flag of a dead ideal. The only flag that should fly above a state flag is OLD GLORY....

The only place a confedrate flag should be seen is in a historical content about the Civil War or a Klan rally.

 

[La Beep]

My ancestors fought under the German Flag of the third Reich....Do I get to diplay a flag with a swastika on my post?

You could if you want to! Do you? This is America not Germany.

Face it the Confederate flag is a flag of a dead ideal. The only flag that should fly above a state flag is OLD GLORY....

It is a pride thing, either you got it or you don't.....

The only place a confedrate flag should be seen is in a historical content about the Civil War or a Klan rally.

Klan. Why did you have to bring them into it? Do you think EVERYBODY from the south is Klan?
Keep thinking small it is only to our advantage, How many presidents came from the south?

 

[Montana Jim]

How many presidents came from the south?

I think 10 (out of 43)... if you actually count Jimmy Carter as a president.

 

[lucky1777]

How many presidents came from the south?

I think 10 (out of 43)... if you actually count Jimmy Carter as a president.

 

[bakergeol]

Lincoln was a Great Man, but he was also a man of contradictions

He was indeed. For example, many people are unaware that he personally authorized the largest mass hanging in United States history—
38 Santee Sioux Indian men at Mankato, Minnesota on December 16, 1862.

These executions followed a series of sham courts-martial verdicts in which 303 Santee Sioux were found guilty of raping and murdering hundreds of American settlers. No defense attorneys or witnesses were permitted for the accused, many of whom were convicted following appearances of less than five minutes before the presiding judge.

Yes PBK--he did authorize the hanging of the 38--but all were originally scheduled to be either hanged or imprisoned and then Lincoln commuted the sentences on the other 265 and let them go (if we want to look at the other side of the fact as well). I don't know on what charges the 38 were hanged--but now it's making me curious to find out...

Apparently for the theft of some eggs... The state called it an uprising when hunters went in search of food after the Indian Agents kept and sold the Indians food.

This source from the Indian's side of the story -
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html

Yes Montana Jim that was indeed the Indian's side of the story.

This is from From Wikipedia

"On August 17, 1862, five American settlers were killed by four Dakota on a hunting expedition. That night, a council of Dakota decided to attack settlements throughout the Minnesota River valley in an effort to drive whites out of the area. Continued battles between the Dakota against settlers and later, the United States Army, ended with the surrender of most of the Dakota forces.[1] There's never been an official report on the number of settlers killed, but estimates range from 300 to 800."

The murder of hundreds of settlers was the reason why the 38 were hanged. This was the 1860's 9/11. This was the most civilians killed by hostile parties in our history until 9/11. So you can see why public sentiment was certainly not for the native Americans.

George