Imprisonment By Executive Order
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  1. #1
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    Imprisonment By Executive Order

    http://www.jbs.org/index.php/jbs-new...xecutive-order

    Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Written by Ann Shibler
    Thursday, 17 July 2008 10:22
    In a victory for tyranny and injustice, a federal appeals court ruled the president has the power to arrest American citizens and imprison them indefinitely without charging them — at whim.
    Judges of the U.S. Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Virginia, in a 5-4 decision, ruled that the president can legally, by simply labeling an individual an “enemy combatant,” imprison anyone, citizen or not, without due process for months, years, decades — or indefinitely.

    The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed an earlier three-judge panel’s decision which ruled that the government lacked the power to detain Ali al-Marri, a citizen of Qatar legally in the United States on a student visa, who had been charged with credit card fraud and making false statements as part of the 9/11 investigation. Keep in mind the Bush administration is not accusing al-Marri of having any connections to al-Qaeda or the Taliban or fighting against U.S. forces. He is accused of being involved in an unproven terrorist plot, which he denies.

    That didn’t stop the judge who was the swing vote in the matter, William Traxler, from opinionating in the ruling (page 28):

    As pointed out by my colleagues, the Constitution generally affords all persons detained by the government the right to be charged and tried in a criminal proceeding for suspected wrongdoing, and it prohibits the government from subjecting individuals arrested inside the United States to military detention unless they fall within certain narrow exceptions. See United States v. Salerno, 481 U.S. 739, 755 (1978) (“In our society liberty is the norm, and detention prior to trial or without trial is the carefully limited exception.”) The detention of enemy combatants during military hostilities, however, is such an exception. If properly designated an enemy combatant pursuant to legal authority of the President, such persons may be detained without charge or criminal proceedings “for the duration of the relevant hostilities.” Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507, 519-521 (2004).

    Judge Traxler’s attitude toward vesting the president with extensive tyrannical powers is astounding as is his understanding and interpretation of the law. He continued with an even scarier statement [Dec. at 62]:

    The President has cautioned us that “[t]he war on terror we fight today is a generational struggle that will continue long after you and I have turned our duties over to others.” –Pres. George W. Bush, State of the Union Address (Jan. 23, 2007). Unlike detention for the duration of a traditional armed conflict between nations, detention for the length of a “war on terror” has no bounds.

    And the scariest of all, this opinion [Dec. at 98]:

    Under the current state of our precedents, it is likely that the constitutional rights our court determines exist, or do not exist, for al-Marri will apply equally to our own citizens under like circumstances. This means simply that protections we declare to be unavailable under the Constitution to al-Marri might likewise be unavailable to American citizens, and those rights which protect him will protect us as well.

    The Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals is therefore advocating a circumvention of basic constitutional rights by the president of the United States and the courts. And this power, once invested will carry forward to all subsequent presidents and courts. They have determined that they will be the “deciders,” specifying who will and who will not be afforded due process under constitutional law.

    Glenn Greenwald of Salon has a great analysis of the case and says it better than anyone:

    At least with regard to individuals detained on U.S. soil, the Bush administration has exercised these definitively tyrannical powers in only a handful of cases -- two U.S. citizens (Hamdi and Padilla) and one non-citizen in the U.S. legally (al-Marri). But what the administration has done is asserted those powers generally, and embarked upon a strategy to ensure that they are institutionalized. Yesterday's ruling -- likely (though not certain) to be reviewed by the U.S. Supreme Court -- is but another step down the path of un-American radicalism we've been traversing.

    Greenwald points out our Founding Fathers warned against investing a president with such powers: “The very core of liberty secured by our Anglo-Saxon system of separated powers has been freedom from indefinite imprisonment at the will of the Executive,” something they were only too familiar with.

    “George Bush will likely leave office with this particular tyrannical power infrequently exercised but nonetheless vigorously asserted, defended, and close to established,” Greenwald says. “This is yet another step in the creeping extremism of the last seven years — like torture and warrantless eavesdropping, this power (allowing the President to imprison U.S. citizens in military brigs with no charges) is one that was until quite recently inconceivable, but is now a defining part of how our Government operates.”

    The mournful tolling of a funeral bell can already be heard as it sounds the approaching death of freedom -- that is unless the American people demand that Congress reign in the creeping totalitarianism that is rapidly destroying our once free republic.





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  2. #2
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    they better pack a lunch it will take a while

  3. #3
    mx
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    HIO TW: This has been on the agenda for a few years, it is finally becoming a law since the public has now been weaned enough from the constitution to accept it.

    At the end of WW-2 it would have caused a riot and calls for an impeachment, now, not even a whimper. sheesh.

    You, realize that it will be enforced vigorously in the near future by the pres. by simply relegating it to a special branch under the NS group, all strictly legal of course.

    It was a critical step for the plans for the US to progress.

    Even this type of post will be conveniently fall under it's power. "Anything" against the gov't falls under this ruling.

    Since no trial, time of detention, or publicity is required, no proof of the basis for an arrest need be given, just a "go get him". A Carte Blanc, with unquestioned power, which in the future could / would include political opponents.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  4. #4
    mx
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Morning TW: thanks for the "Glock talk" site, I am now posting in there under "Tayopa" also.. Naturally against Glocks,or semi's as usual. hehehe.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  5. #5
    mx
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    HIO TW: Hmm you mean that I made another boobo

    p.s. againI ownlt apoologize TW hehehe.o?

    It was rmptr -->Found interesting dialog over at GlockTalk.com forum (http://glocktalk.com/)

    By semi auto, I am referring to semi-auto pistols as against revolvers.

    A full auto permit can be had for $$$$

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. I won't apol again TW. heheh.
    "I exist to live, not live to exist"

  6. #6

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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    I don't know what Hamdi did but I know that Jose Padilla was charged and most likely will be convicted of returning to the united states from al-qaeda training for the express purpose of detonating a dirty bomb in Chicago. Since he lived there his attempted crime is especially obnoxious. siegfried schlagrule
    "We have done so much; for so many; for so long; with so little; that pretty soon we'll be able to do anything; with nothing at all."
    my unit motto - 138th Aviation Company -  224th Aviation Battalion - Phu Bai, I Corps, Republic of Vietnam - 1972
    Siegfried Schlagrule

  7. #7
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    I find it odd that the Supreme Court is giving detainees more rights and priveleges than actual citizens of this country have.

    What have we let this country become? Watch out because I'm sure some of us will be "disappeared" if we're not careful.
    "It isn't the age, it's the mileage" IJ

  8. #8
    us
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Tom,

    I don't think we have too much to worry about.
    The only time something like this has been enacted,
    was in time of national threat and only for national security.
    I really don't think anyone here poses that kind of threat or even wants to.

    The principle goes all the way back to Lincoln suspending the Habeus Corpus...
    this has been used by every war time President since in small doses.
    Whether we are aware of it or not.
    There are a lot of guidelines for them to use before it can be enacted.
    For someone to be confined under this " rule "
    they would first have to pose a national security threat.

    Thom
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  9. #9
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Tom,
    Yes, I know.
    Best reson in the world not to raise too much of a stink.
    Rather die a patriot for a cause than rot away and not be alowed to take part.

    Thom
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  10. #10
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    ah the "powers that be" say that your a "enemy combatant" and thus since its a terrorist war which in effect is never really over ( since theres no "offical" signing of peace accords) they can then hold you in jail for life --without "offically" charging you with squat or ever letting you get a trial of any type to prove guilt or innocence ---scary stuff indeed---that could be very easily abused ---- most folks will say thats ok their terrorist --but what if by some error you somehow get on the list (say some govt clerk makes a error on twhile tryping in a SSN and you have a similar name --sp when you go to fly they "hi jack" you mr terrorist when you go to fly home from doing some bussiness cross country ) --- then its bye bye to you for life with no way out of the rat cage except for the very folks who put you in letting you out -- good luck on that (since once you were released from this living hell you would most likely sue or raise heck over it (thus causing them "problems" --well their thinking just might be that it for their best interest for you just stay put in "limbo land" with no way to talk to folks too get help and no arrty to contect folks yo prove who you "really" are--- its a great way to cover up their screw up -- in effect you just dissappear) ---have a nice day .

  11. #11
    us
    May 2007
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis
    ah the "powers that be" say that your a "enemy combatant" and thus since its a terrorist war which in effect is never really over ( since theres no "offical" signing of peace accords) they can then hold you in jail for life --without "offically" charging you with squat or ever letting you get a trial of any type to prove guilt or innocence ---scary stuff indeed---that could be very easily abused ---- most folks say thats ok their terrorist --but what if by some error you get on the list --- bye bye to you for life with no way out of the rat cage except for the very folks who put you in letting you out --good luck on that (since once you were released from this living hell you would most likely sue or raise heck over it (thus causing them "problems" --well their thinking might it for their best interest for you just stay put --- to cover up their screw up ) ---have a nice day .
    Indeed Ivan,
    That is why when the time comes to stand for a cause.. stand for it and be willing to die for it.
    I would rather that than"rot away not being able to participate."
    "Everybody dies"
    "But not everybody lives."

  12. #12
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberwolf
    Thom,

    What has happened to that "Paul Revere", in all of us?
    That's a rhetorical question.....I know the answer

    Tom
    The same thing that happened to the real Paul Revere.


    You know, OD--that's the problem.  Our rights are eroded so gradually that it's tough to know what to stand for as a "cause."  We have no energy left from fighting one thing after another, and we get spread thin in terms of finding the root Cause--which is the erosion of our Liberty.  I'm sure this is no accident...that the events unfold in little innocuous pieces of legislature one at a time.

    I'd love to post all my thoughts on this thread--but I'll get too worked up over it.  I fought hard against the Patriot Act (back when there was a lot--and I mean a LOT of support for it).  I saw the administration use all our fears to push their nasty piece of legislation through.  We don't have the right to remain silent.  We don't have the right to a lawyer.  And we don't have the right to even know what we're being charged for.  Habeas Corpus rights will be next (and they've been skirting that line with the Torture already). 

    I'm done typing here.  I fought against it the first time--with hundreds and hundreds of others in writing letters and protesting (what good did that do?).  Was that "UN-patriotic" since I was against a piece of legislation that had the word "Patriot" cleverly inserted in its title?  The Founding Fathers would've rolled in their graves!  If you give the president these types of rights, a democracy is no longer a democracy--and a president becomes King. 

    We fought for our Liberty once. It will be a sad day if and when we must fight for our Liberty a second time.



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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberwolf
    Very well spoken BB,

    I care, and I vote. But honestly......I don't think it matters anymore
    Your post pretty much confirms that fact, sad to say.

    I'm not giving up, but I don't see any way that a few of us can change the course, set into motion by the many

    TW
    I agree with you.
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberwolf
    BB,

    If you get the chance, say hi to Dorian for me.
    He hasn't answered my emails or PM's

    I hope he is OK

    TW
    I haven't talked to him in months.

    Perhaps he's gone into hiding again....
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  15. #15
    us
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    Re: Imprisonment By Executive Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dog
    Tom,

    I don't think we have too much to worry about.
    The only time something like this has been enacted,
    was in time of national threat and only for national security.
    I really don't think anyone here poses that kind of threat or even wants to.

    The principle goes all the way back to Lincoln suspending the Habeus Corpus...
    this has been used by every war time President since in small doses.
    Whether we are aware of it or not.
    There are a lot of guidelines for them to use before it can be enacted.
    For someone to be confined under this " rule "
    they would first have to pose a national security threat.

    Thom
    Be carefull Thom, you are talking common sense here, and you know that won't fly on this thread!!! The sky is falling ......

 

 
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