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  1. #16

    May 2008
    58
    1 times

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    From the peanut gallery, There probably was a "overwash" , not a inlet, in the Sebastian River area from time to time, when we get "Fay type rains (25") and a north wind, the water backs up from the IRL narrows to Melbourne Beach. The over wash over the dunes would fill in quickly but all that water would be hunting for some place to go. Water comming out of the Sebastian river would help raise the water level also. My $.02 worth

  2. #17
    Atticus Finch

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    Quote Originally Posted by mad4wrecks
    Q: Were "thin sections of barrier island" useful or important to the Spanish?* Would they have been useful or important features to any pre-modern navigators?

    My answer would be "Yes". The indians and early Spanish explorers and navigators often used these narrow areas of island as "haulovers" for dragging their canoes and launches other light vessels from the ocean into the lagoon and vice versa.

    Remember, 300-400 years ago there were not nearly the number of inlets we have today in Florida, and the natural inlets unpredictably opened and closed all the time.


    Just south of Matanza Inlet a NEW inlet recently broke through. The immediate inland flooded and obviously now looks completely different. I imagine many times through history inlets opened and closed.

  3. #18

    Oct 2004
    stuart..the treasure coast..well, used to be
    Minelab Excalibur with a WOT!
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    So, a "league" is 3.45 statute miles. If the old Ft. Pierce/Indian river inlet was about where the SEAL museum is, 7 miles north would put it near Riomar? Those old maps weren't real accurate. As for the mainland being visible, there is the "Bleech yard" at Jensen Beach, and Los tortolas (the turtles)..sand hills north of Ft. Pierce.

    The inlet at Matanzas..due to all the inlet stabilization on the east coast, The south side has been eroding faster than usual. I'll bet the old A1A road finally washed through.

    Matanzas is the last natural inlet on the east coast. Notice how sand migrates across the mouth of the inlet without being lost. Yoohoo..coastal engineers..take a lesson from yo momma..mother nature.

  4. #19
    us
    Mar 2006
    Florida
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    8 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays


  5. #20
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    a league could vary a lot in size depending upon the "time frame" -- the very old spanish league was 2.6 miles -- the more commonly used commonly more "modern" measure by both the spanish and the english standard leauge of 3 miles *--- even at a mere 15 leauges the differance is 6 miles !!! (39 miles using 2.6 per vs 45 at 3 per) - so you see knowing which standard they were using is vital --although "offically forbidden" to use the old measure many folks esp those from south america used them at sea for measuring distances and mapping charts for many many years --so if your working something directions wize and things do not seem to "add up" using your numbers try the old measure of 2.6 miles or 3 miles instead .

  6. #21
    us
    Mar 2006
    Florida
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    Ivan... This might help.


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  7. #22
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    in two letters --- in a letter written from st augustine to cuba sept 20th of 1715 --admerial salmon (in charge of salvaging the treasure fleet) says wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found was found washed ashore * 15 leagues to the leeward * of this port (st augustine)---- (39 miles at 2.6 per mile) or about where modern day nassau sound is --- on oct 24th, of 1715 -- english govenor of virginia alaxander spotswood reported that --"a rescue vessel (barkalonga--single masted 60 foot type vessel) sent from havana to recover VIP'S and wealth off the 1715 fleet wreck sites to the south had later wrecked about 40 miles to the north of st augustine" ( was she headed for spain with some of the recovered queens dowery items onboard? who knows?) spotswood also said that a conciderible quanity of plate (silver) was cast away and ready for "recovery" if he was given the royal "nod" (15 leagues at 2.6 miles = 39 miles and about 40 miles ) both "sides" were quite in agreement that a vessel baring 1715 era goodies went down in the nassau sound area -- humm very close matching info considering the day and that its from 2 differant sources* --(unless high level spys were invovled --- which is highly likely )

  8. #23
    us
    Oct 2008
    9

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    Jeff K:
    I'm very familiar with the Higgs' article (FHQ 1942) on Ais and the McClarty site.
    Higgs' article is absolute terrible, for a number of reasons, but I won't bore you.

    Your map showing Ais at Vero Beach is the "orthodox" location, inherited from Woodbury Lowery (1909) to Higgs (1942) to Rouse (1951) to the present, with the exception of Eugene Lyon (1976 and n.d.) and Homer Cato (unpublished).
    Lyon and Cato place Summer Ais in Roseland/Sebastian, and Winter Ais just north of the Sebatian Inlet. They place the Inlet of the Ais either at New's Cut or just south of it, in the area below where Jungle Trail Road breaks off from modern AIA.

    Our article overthrows 100 years of received wisdom re: the location of Ais and 250 years of received wisdom re: location of Ais Inlet (Rio or Barra d'Ays etc.)

    I will be giving a free public lecture on this topic (and some others) at the Melbourne Library on Saturday November 8 at 3:00 PM for the South Brevard Historical Society.

    Here is a picture (hopefully) of the Kroegel Mound (the real Ais town) prior to it being sold for road-fill in 1904:
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  9. #24
    Charter Member
    us
    Pirate of the Ays

    May 2004
    Satellite Beach
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    In the town of Indiatlantic, on the Barrier Island way up north across the Indian and Banana Rivers from Melbourne. Just a few miles south of Wreckdivers private island sanctuary.

    Tom
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  10. #25

    Oct 2004
    stuart..the treasure coast..well, used to be
    Minelab Excalibur with a WOT!
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    If you look closely at Romans 1768 map, he shows the juncture of the Indian and Banana Rivers at a location just south of Sebastian. It's easy to understand the confusion about locations with discrepancies like this. He also labels the inlet at Ft. Pierce as "Hillsboro" inlet.

    Notice the "bleech yard" and "tortolas" as visual landmarks on the mainland.

  11. #26
    Charter Member
    us
    Pirate of the Ays

    May 2004
    Satellite Beach
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    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    Romans map had me thinking that the Capitana was just off of Conova Beach in Brevard County.

    Tom

  12. #27

    Oct 2004
    stuart..the treasure coast..well, used to be
    Minelab Excalibur with a WOT!
    578
    8 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    Wreck..it could be. I'm still of the opinion that the smaller, lighter ships carried little if any "ballast stones". If indeed they were heavily laden with treasure, they didn't need the ballast.

    Look at Savannah. All that waterfront development was built with "ballast stones". They removed the ballast and replaced it with cargo.

    We may never find the remaining ships because other than cannons, they have nothing heavy and permanent on them.

    There is conflict on early maps about some inland details. Would early explorers really have taken time to sail small vessels up the Indian river to verify the actual configuration? Was Romans simply making sketches along the way, and later compiled his maps from notes? It's easy to make a few mistakes when you're 3000 miles away. While good, early maps and accounts of distances can have substantial errors.

  13. #28
    us
    Oct 2008
    9

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    Bill

    You said Romans' map of 1768. All I have is the one from Burgess & Clausen, which they date at 1775 (which is also the date of his book). It shows, like you said, Merritt Island terminating in the area of the Sebastian River.
    IF those are different maps (1768 vs. 1775, in Burgess & Clausen), could you send me a copy of yours (aebrech@aol.com) ?

    You're certainly correct about the poor quality of early maps, even De Brahms' and Romans, especially as it pertains to the interior, non-coastal features.

    Our paper locating the main town of the Ais does not rely on these maps, but out of thoroughness and full disclosure, we do mention them and assess them. Thanks again,
    Alan Brech
    Below is a picture of the last remnant of Barker's Bluff (aka Kroegel Homestead) as it was removed for road-fill in 1904.
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  14. #29
    us
    ARRG

    Feb 2005
    Sarasota, FL
    Whites Surfmaster PI Pro and Whites Surfmaster PI, Minelab Excal NY blue sword. 2 White's Dual field pi, Garrett sea hunter pi II (but don't use it for obvious reasons) 5' x 3 1/2' coil underwater Pi
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    Shipwrecks

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    I always assumed they meant the shallow area off Cape Canaveral. That would be an area to avoid while undersail, and I am sure well known back then, and it goes way out. There are many known shipwrecks there, and it is close to the Turtle mound which was the center of Ais's territory. Maybe shift your looking up that way. Check on any modern chart and you will see it clearly. Only problem it is near Federal seashore, and Cape Canaveral space port, both off limits.

  15. #30
    us
    Jan 2009
    6

    Re: New Question about 1715 Wreck + Barra d'Ays

    I'm new to this forum, so forgive me for my ignorance, but I would like to add some info.

    I have had an original map in my possesion " The General Map of the Southern British Colonies" by B Romans 1776.

    Ayrs Inlet is clearly the St Lucie Inlet as it is shown as the terminus of the St Lucia River. What i am unsure of is the "Hillsborogh Inlet" (not the present day one in Boca) as it is shown to be South of the Sebastian River and North of the St Lucia, so I assume it is the Ft Pierce Inlet.

    It also shows "the Bleach Yard, a high hill full of white spots, remarkable landmark" in current day Jensen Beach.

    Remarkably though it also show six "X"s in the water just offshore north of the "Hillsborough Inlet". I was curious as whether this could be the location of the 1715 fleet as understood back then and provided by Henry Jennings? These Xs appear different than those on the rest of the map to define shoals as some appear to be encircled.


 

 
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