My 3rd and Final Attempt to ID this Piece..

[mcl]

Hey all. This is not the first time I have posted this item on t-net, in fact, it's my third. This is the last time I am going to mess with getting this identified, and I'm hoping you all can help me. I found this item quite a long time ago while metal detecting in Iowa. I've done countless hours of research on it because I can't stand that something so out of the ordinary is eluding me. This is from a site where I find stuff usually circa 1880s to present with the very occasional piece predating that by 10-20 years (probably brought in when the area was settled). As such I've always researched it as something from that period. However, no object or fragment of an object I have located from that time frame matches shape and materials of this thing. Two "what is it" threads have gotten me nowhere. So I've come back here to ask you all to help me. Why? Because a picture I saw posted here once is the closest match I've ever seen to what I've got. I will say that I honestly doubt this ID, but I've never gotten the possibility out of my head. So here goes, the picture that started it all: some guy's collection of "tinklers and copper points". The particular one I want you to pay attention to is the one that is bent in the 90 degree angle. I've circled it in green. This is the only picture he posted as far as I'm aware.



So, that's my comparison item. Now for mine. I also own something made of copper that appears to be rolled into cone with a pointy end, and, just like that one, mine got bent in half at some point. Whatever caused that probably also caused a small crack through through part of it. For this reason, I feel that my piece is damaged and not in its original state. As far as I can tell, so was that guy's piece. Now, here is the little detail of mine that has always prevented me from calling it anything else that I've seen: as far as I can tell, the piece was once filled with a cylindrical piece of wood, a great deal of which is still inside. [EDIT: Just to be clear, it looks like wood to me, but it is heavily degraded so maybe something else] So, I'm going to post a whole bunch of pictures I took at one point with as much detail as possible. So many you might not even need all of them. But here's my simple question:

Is this a fur trade artifact?

Don't feel like you have to let me down easy. Tell me your opinion honestly and don't get my hopes up. I'm ready to re-bury this thing if this last ditch doesn't pan out. Either way, thank you for your time.

 

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[Glenn C]

Im gonna guess it was part of a leister. I know archaic period made them. Not sure of the furtrade era. But definately possible.

 

[Glenn C]

Like this

 

[patiodadio]

Looks like part of an antenna

 

[digging440yrs]

Just a guess--antique car trim ---

 

[Glenn C]

Is the copper folded in along the edges then made tound. It does seem to be to straight along the seem which would make it modern.

 

[Indiana_Brandon]

Idk why but to me it looks like a messed up oxy acetylene tourch end.. Just a thought

 

[mcl]

Hey all, just noticed a bunch of replies showed up. Thanks for taking a look. Going to reply to each with my personal thoughts.

Im gonna guess it was part of a leister. I know archaic period made them. Not sure of the furtrade era. But definately possible.

I can definitely see why you might say that, because I saw the post for the piece you found when I googled what a leister was. I'd never even heard of one before, so, today I learned! I think there are just too many degree of separation between this piece and every other example of a full leister that I could find. I'd love to find something that cool, but I don't even think I'm in nearly location to find one.

Looks like part of an antenna

Definitely have heard antenna/lightning rod piece before. I think there are a lot of little details that would make me a little surprised if that's what this was (though not a radio enthusiast or anything). First, if you need an antenna, why go through the trouble of rolling up sheets of copper when you can just use a thick gauge wire? If it had to be hollow (e.g., telescoping antenna, but then again this would have to be the tip, so it should have a hollow sleeve, not be one, in my mind), why not just use copper tubing? Biggest issue to me is, I can find plenty of antennas which attach to wood, but not antennas which have wooden rods/shafts inside the copper. Would be happy to see any examples.

Just a guess--antique car trim --- View attachment 1273224

Good guess since one edge is almost flat and open (surface for adhesives, glue, etc). Hadn't thought of that one. Could not however find many serious examples of antique cars with copper (or brass/bronze) trim. Would be willing to look if you know of any/

Is the copper folded in along the edges then made tound. It does seem to be to straight along the seem which would make it modern.

I think the answer is yes to the question in the first sentence: Yes, the seam is straight like it was rolled from an edge not a corner. As far as the comment about being modern.. kind of a relative term, not sure what you mean. To be clear, I don't think this older than European visitors -- native copper in Iowa is limited to the odd, now and then nugget found in glacial deposits. I might misunderstand what fur trade means so to be clear, I have always thought this was circa the turn of the century (1900) but just wanted to make sure it wasn't something a little bit older than that (the copper points made from repurposed copper). To me, both of those are basically modern vs something like stone arrowheads.

Idk why but to me it looks like a messed up oxy acetylene tourch end.. Just a thought

I really appreciate this answer because despite being almost the exact general shape of my piece I had never considered something like that. I did look quite a bit but couldn't find any torch tips with a seam; to me that is telling. As far as I know, the gas is igniting at the tip of a gas torch as it comes out; I could be wrong but wouldn't that mean that gas would be seeping out through the seam of this piece as you used the torch? That would be.. problematic I would guess but I'm no expert. This suggestion was pretty helpful in that I hadn't put a lot of thought into this piece being some kind of application device, in the broad sense; gas, oil, ink, a sewing needle, who knows. The seam is still a problem for anything liquid/gas, but this gives me some ideas so thank you.

Anyway!

The real reason I came here was to make sure it wasn't a copper point/something similar. I do appreciate all the suggestions you have all given me, but either way seems like it is abundantly clear that there's no way it's native-worked copper. Thanks again for the help!

 

[Glenn C]

Hey all, just noticed a bunch of replies showed up. Thanks for taking a look. Going to reply to each with my personal thoughts.



I can definitely see why you might say that, because I saw the post for the piece you found when I googled what a leister was. I'd never even heard of one before, so, today I learned! I think there are just too many degree of separation between this piece and every other example of a full leister that I could find. I'd love to find something that cool, but I don't even think I'm in nearly location to find one.



Definitely have heard antenna/lightning rod piece before. I think there are a lot of little details that would make me a little surprised if that's what this was (though not a radio enthusiast or anything). First, if you need an antenna, why go through the trouble of rolling up sheets of copper when you can just use a thick gauge wire? If it had to be hollow (e.g., telescoping antenna, but then again this would have to be the tip, so it should have a hollow sleeve, not be one, in my mind), why not just use copper tubing? Biggest issue to me is, I can find plenty of antennas which attach to wood, but not antennas which have wooden rods/shafts inside the copper. Would be happy to see any examples.




Good guess since one edge is almost flat and open (surface for adhesives, glue, etc). Hadn't thought of that one. Could not however find many serious examples of antique cars with copper (or brass/bronze) trim. Would be willing to look if you know of any/




I think the answer is yes to the question in the first sentence: Yes, the seam is straight like it was rolled from an edge not a corner. As far as the comment about being modern.. kind of a relative term, not sure what you mean. To be clear, I don't think this older than European visitors -- native copper in Iowa is limited to the odd, now and then nugget found in glacial deposits. I might misunderstand what fur trade means so to be clear, I have always thought this was circa the turn of the century (1900) but just wanted to make sure it wasn't something a little bit older than that (the copper points made from repurposed copper). To me, both of those are basically modern vs something like stone arrowheads.



I really appreciate this answer because despite being almost the exact general shape of my piece I had never considered something like that. I did look quite a bit but couldn't find any torch tips with a seam; to me that is telling. As far as I know, the gas is igniting at the tip of a gas torch as it comes out; I could be wrong but wouldn't that mean that gas would be seeping out through the seam of this piece as you used the torch? That would be.. problematic I would guess but I'm no expert. This suggestion was pretty helpful in that I hadn't put a lot of thought into this piece being some kind of application device, in the broad sense; gas, oil, ink, a sewing needle, who knows. The seam is still a problem for anything liquid/gas, but this gives me some ideas so thank you.

Anyway!

The real reason I came here was to make sure it wasn't a copper point/something similar. I do appreciate all the suggestions you have all given me, but either way seems like it is abundantly clear that there's no way it's native-worked copper. Thanks again for the help!

There is apart of a leister in this photo from archaic period. I cant see it being angthing else

 

[JohnnyRelic]

Ok, hopefully I can help you out here. First, I can tell you exactly what it is NOT. It is not part of a archaic times leister and it is not from the fur trade era either. I have found many of these over the years and almost exclusively on late 1800's home sites. I have always figured it was part of trim from a purse or clutch or bag. Like the metal trim shown in this picture on the purse.

 

[Peyton Manning]

I am guessing, but looks like the thing the pound into a maple tree to collect syrup

 

[46Wheat]

The first thought I had when I saw it was the metal end off of an old rope fish stringer

 

[mcl]

There is apart of a leister in this photo from archaic period. I cant see it being angthing else View attachment 1273846

To me, the biggest argument for this idea is something like this diagram I found which shows how to make another sort of Native American fishing apparatus:

View attachment 1274511

But obviously that picture isn't for making a leister and my piece doesn't have the requisite "hook" on the end. As for being from a leister, one thing I notice about your piece was that, as far as I could tell, it was not hollow/rolled, but solid. Just wondering what your thoughts are on the structural integrity of a hollow rather than solid spike for such a tool?

Ok, hopefully I can help you out here. First, I can tell you exactly what it is NOT. It is not part of a archaic times leister and it is not from the fur trade era either. I have found many of these over the years and almost exclusively on late 1800's home sites. I have always figured it was part of trim from a purse or clutch or bag. Like the metal trim shown in this picture on the purse. View attachment 1274165

This is a really good suggestion and frankly one that is hard to come up with reasons "why not", e.g., the following example which while not antique is similar in structure:

View attachment 1274512

It's definitely something I'm going to take a closer look at. The main thing I notice though is that all the clasps I can find are in some way attached to the clasp on the other side of the purse at either end/tip. In my case, the one tip I do have is rolled to a point; without signs of anything having been broken off, it makes me wonder how it could have been attached to anything. That said, I haven't spent more than ten minutes looking at examples.

I am guessing, but looks like the thing the pound into a maple tree to collect syrup

I like this one because taking a look at the following picture, there are a couple "taps" that have exactly the same structure as my piece if it were not bent at a 90 degree angle:

View attachment 1274513

But to be clear, they are made of 100% wood as I understand from the description of the picture I found. That's not to say there aren't taps made from copper or other metal though, as I found some of those as well. My main concern would be that it would be pretty out of place given where I found it; no maple trees of which I am aware. Still, it's not impossible (people take stuff with them when they move from one place to another) and this gives me yet another avenue to pursue, so thank you.

The first thought I had when I saw it was the metal end off of an old rope fish stringer

Definitely have heard this one before but my though was always, why put untreated wood in something that is going to be submerged in water? However, it could easily be some other type of stake that wasn't meant for fishing, e.g., for dry land.

Lots of great suggestions for me here, so thank you all. All are great possibilities but with so little context it's hard to say for certain. I'm definitely liking the idea that it could be trim from something. It makes it a lot easier to explain the purpose/function of the shape and materials -- because if it's trim, it doesn't need a function. No questions about whether it is durable enough, hard enough, etc to function as some sort of tool because it wouldn't be a tool with an end function. And it's easier to explain the weird wood/copper combination. Copper gets used functionally around water, electricity, and sometimes fire; wood doesn't always fit those same applications, so combining them means losing many of the functional benefits of copper. Wood+copper tools definitely exist, but to me it's a lot easier to call this piece "trim" or "decoration" than try to shoehorn it into some of the more fanciful explanations. Time will tell. I'd certainly love for an anthropologist or historian to come around and tell me I'd found part of a shamanic talisman used by a medicine man. I won't wait by the phone though.

 

[chase2]

MCL, I think you are referring to me. and what I posted are in fact Tinklers. how ever I have not posted any copper arrowheads. The frame in question is from Colorado and are Metal and are a complete cylinder. Here:
What I am seeing very well maybe a copper culture arrowhead Rat Tail. from the great lakes. looks like from what I see is the blade has been removed and the base(point has been bent. take a look and see what you think. The Universality of the Old Copper Rat Tail Point

 

[bill from lachine]

chase,

Just throwing this out for what it's worth....the lack of heavy verdigris makes me wonder if this would be copper culture period?

What are your thoughts?

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[chase2]

chase,

Just throwing this out for what it's worth....the lack of heavy verdigris makes me wonder if this would be copper culture period?

What are your thoughts?

Regards + HH

Bill

Bill,

I hear what your saying, but given that it is copper I was trying to give a reasonable explanation. There is a member from here (Mainejman) that a few years back posted an Ivory spear point he had found in Maine. The condition was amazing. I will see if I can find the link. In certain circumstances anything is possible. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/fossils/389674-stone-bone-antler-ivory-swordfish-bill.html
MLC, not trying to hi-jack this thread. just want to show that anything is possible.

 

[Beadman]

it appears at first to be a rolled brass conical arrow point...(but) it appears heavier brass...usually the conical arrow points werent all that thick of brass...if it was shot it could be bent from hitting something...usually they r all the way rolled not half way...it would go over a wooden shaft...i suppose they could have modified it for some other use and the copper could preserve the material inside could be bone?...more than likely wood...either way tinklers (bangles) have an open end on the cone...not a point....a rolled copper bead is just that a rolled cylinder with 2 holes....sometimes copper awls will not be rolled all the way only half way like a crescent moon...and inserted into a bone handle with pitch......usually though you would find other artifacts associated with that type of arrow point...so it can either rule against it or for it...hope this helps ....

 

[Beadman]

i will say it looks longer to me than typical conical arrow pts...and the fact that it is half rolled most of the way until the last inch or so of the tip and the roll comes around is odd to me....also i wonder if they didnt bend it on purpose ...to modify it for a peticular use....definatly intresting artifact....spear maybe ?....just a suggestion...whatever bent it had some force

 

[Glenn C]

It is to thin to be archaic. It does seem to be formed by a machine press.