Jesuit sunburst axe mark? 6 triangles

[Hot diggity]

This was one of my 1st big signal finds with a metal detector in the summer of '14. It was maybe 4-6 inches deep & overloaded my detector. It was a big clump of rust & I thought it was just part of a stove. After a couple weeks in vinegar I realized it was a broken axe. Yeah! A while after that I noticed its mark. I've only read about Jesuit axe marks in Ohio, US & with 4 or 8 triangles. This mark has 6 & is from Ontario, Can. Any input would be great. I can't find much info on the net.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[rivets]

Jesuits and Zoroastrianism ( Freemasonry ) go hand in hand ... Zoroastrianism being the study of Alchemy ( mystery religions ) so your 6 point symbol could be that of Barytes and the 4 point symbol that of Strontian/Strontium and the 8 point symbol that of mercury .....


ps: follow the symbols and you will begin to see the patterns

 

[CladiatorMax]

Wow, that is a stellar find. Jesuits! Speechless, that is some amazing history there. Awesome, thanks for sharing.

 

[gollum]

That mark probably has to do with the hardness or quality of the iron in the blade.

Mike

 

[releventchair]

A mission was on the Wye in 1639.
The Sault , one on Nipigon...Dates vary.
Some of the many forts may have had them too.
Following Claude Jean Allouez might give you some hints of activities and locations to start with...

 

[abucooche]

so, just a few weeks in vinegar? wow, that looks good! cool find

 

[Hot diggity]

Well, maybe 3 or 4 weeks in vinegar. My friend found a Jesuit ring with a big "M" on it. Likely for "Mary". He also found a mid 17th century axe (not Jesuit) which barely needed cleaning. Thanks releventchair. I'll have to do some reading on the Jesuit missions around here.

 

[Beadman]

its just the blacksmiths makers mark....has nothing to do with jesuits ...unless maybe it scalped one...lol......just a typical iron trade axe....prob french....still a lot of work to be done as far as research to find out more about the exsact makers of this type of artifact...considering it was so widely traded...not a bad find...prob a whole 1 around somewhere...i got 3 in really good shape dutch/french/english....pay attention to the haft eyelits they will tell a lot about the axe along with the diff makers marks

 

[Hot diggity]

I wasn't sure before & I'm still not. Can you post a pic of those 3 axes Beadman. I'm not finding much in the way of these old marks. Still doesn't explain the Jesuit ring found within 50 ft or so. I get my bud to post it soon. If it ain't Jesuit then my theory is shot. They were around South Ontario though & the style "seems" right. Thanks for your input.

 

[Beadman]

hot diggity....forget the theory ...no need to wonder....the axe is typical trade material....the ring could definatly be associated with the jesuits as they were given out as tokens "but" they were also widely traded by explorers all over but a lot through the great lakes .....if it is sited as a mission site then the ring would more than likely be associated with work done by jesuit missionaries as far as the ring you have to look at secular designs and stamped embossed or wether insized.... my axes look just like those in ur black n white photo...and 1 of mine exhibits same halmark as the piece you found...another has a cross with dots and another double flowers ....the 1 is dated to 1575-1610 and is dutch ...others r dated to 1687 and are french/english...would take more to explain the eyelets and id love to show you a picture if i could still figure out how to post a pic from a mobile phone but i cant....the dutch looks like the one on the right...the french\ english like the one on the left in the black n white photo.....i am in ny and these r seneca...they did have missionary sites where you are...in huron country...hope this helps...

 

[Beadman]

also as far as cleaning....absolutly DONT use vinegar on any artifact unless you dont care....too harsh(mildly acidic) and it will ruin the natural petina and value of the artifact and will be worthless....not that you would ever sell but us collectors wont buy it....we would consider it ruined....i have not cleaned my axes at all except with a light soft toothbrush to get dirt off then let dry...they were rusted on face up somewhat and less on facedown in the ground...after post excavation iron will pit and continue to oxidize{slowly}...i have talked to conservators at museums they usually use graphite to stop further corrosion but most collectors i talk to just spray with wd40 and pat dry then let dry and it will prevent further oxidation....absolutly DO NOT wire brush any artifact...ruins it on the spot...as far as any value other than study....tell ur friend to leave the jesuit ring as is...just rinse with water to get dirt off....otherwise it will be less valuable...

 

[Hot diggity]

I only used vinegar before I knew it was an axe. Then I used evaporust & brushed it periodically with a toothbrush. Baked it at a low temperature for an hour & then preservative wax. Not a seller anyway. I have searched for this mark with no luck & would really love a pic. I'm using my Android app at "work" right now. I just hit reply if I want to include a pic on a post. It brings up my photo gallery. Good luck. I REALLY want to see a whole one! Funny thing is if it wasn't broken, it wouldn't have been left there for me to find. It was from the outskirts of Huron area.

 

[Glenn C]

This is the ring your speaking of. Also found a boot knife from 1610 to 1630, Biscayne ax at the same camp and a unidentified knife among other things. I would like to see a picture of that axe as well if possible. Maybe a nerdy kid could help out quick..

 

[beadman2]

i have an old slide phone no new android phone....still trying to figure out how to get a picture to come up from my pictures (jpeg?...)...i used to know how to do all this stuff but ive been getting away from computerized crap it annoys me....that ring is intresting...very nice i might add..looks perfect...it is an insized ring the m does stand for mary magdelene or "love of mary"...it is an octogonal bezel so that makes it a little more rarer than the oval to round but not uncommon...heres something intresting to note ....in others scholars work they propozed that the insized rings were later than stamped embossed say 1700's on up...due to styalistic drift....i think we are finding this is not true ...because i have some that date to 1650...so they also can be an early ring ..although secular designs that r raised(stamped) due tend to be older....also you ring proves my same theory...if your ring does date to 1600s...i propose that these rings were generally widley distributed at all times as tokens gifts etc....and this is why we should not jump to any conclusions until all data and facts can be made valid....

 

[Glenn C]

The boot knife and biscayne ax date to 1630. 1650 sounds about correct. Also the lack of information on the second knife found beside the the boot knife would say it would have been made at that time and brought over within a 20 year time span which would be about 1650 as the date of this type of ring...possibly

 

[beadman2]

still trying to figure out how to upload a damn picture....how frustrating!

 

[Hot diggity]

No luck huh? Wouldn't really help anyway. Just nice to see. The ring does not prove your theory. Still not sure what that theory is. We all know early settlers traded/gifted with Indians. Jesuits were early settlers. If u buy something Chinese does that make it American? How can u deny the resemblance between the two documented (by scholars) Jesuit marks from the book & my broken one? It's the same mark, just a different # of triangles or "eyelets". Maybe they represented weight or iron grade as mentioned. There are 17th century axes from this area - Biscayne & such, but the marks are different at a glance. Then there is circumstantial "evidence"... Right time/place & the ring.
What I was kinda hoping for from this post was maybe a link to a database or something with this exact mark & a description from some university professor or museum guy etcetera. I won't be too disappointed if not (I'm new but will get my fill soon enough), but I'd like the truth. I hope I don't come off as rude Beadman, but u did just tell me to forget my theory without backing up your own. That said I do appreciate your scepticism. I think debates are important when something is debatable. When u get time I would like to hear your thoughts on the eyelets. HH

 

[rivets]

Read up on John Dalton ... and look at his table of elements .................



AXmEn


A - the central atom

X- an atom directly attached to the central atom

m- the number of atoms directly attached to the central atom

E- a lone pair of electrons around the central atom

n- the number of lone electron pairs on the central atom

 

[releventchair]

No luck huh? Wouldn't really help anyway. Just nice to see. The ring does not prove your theory. Still not sure what that theory is. We all know early settlers traded/gifted with Indians. Jesuits were early settlers. If u buy something Chinese does that make it American? How can u deny the resemblance between the two documented (by scholars) Jesuit marks from the book & my broken one? It's the same mark, just a different # of triangles or "eyelets". Maybe they represented weight or iron grade as mentioned. There are 17th century axes from this area - Biscayne & such, but the marks are different at a glance. Then there is circumstantial "evidence"... Right time/place & the ring.
What I was kinda hoping for from this post was maybe a link to a database or something with this exact mark & a description from some university professor or museum guy etcetera. I won't be too disappointed if not (I'm new but will get my fill soon enough), but I'd like the truth. I hope I don't come off as rude Beadman, but u did just tell me to forget my theory without backing up your own. That said I do appreciate your scepticism. I think debates are important when something is debatable. When u get time I would like to hear your thoughts on the eyelets. HH

I've posted a site with trade axes repeatedly on this forum.
Not sure your goal but the makers touch-mark /car-touche/makers mark might be it.
I've not heard or read of any Jesuit constructed axe's/hawks. Does not mean none exist or that my experience is worth a cup of coffee.

I'm with you on wanting to see a comprehensive list of makers marks including all that saw use or distribution in North America.

Dutch, English,French,or domestically sourced and to whom they were traded or sold would be nice.

Your piece sure shows the wrought iron.
It's touch mark was known at one time for sure.
Not having the rest of the piece intact makes it difficult to take a go at the style ,which could lead to source.
With many trading hands from other countries ,multiple times before reaching their destination it can get interesting.
Those made near their discoveries are better ,perhaps, traced from smithies that were in the area.

 

[Beadman]

thank you relevantchair....this is all i was trying to say....hot diggity ....you dont need an archie or museum....sometimes they cant even shed light on artifacts....hell they learn from us private collectors....when i say eyelet i mean the hafting eyelet where they put the handle through...some r round...oblong or oval...or rectangular oval....wich can lead to where they come from...mine r well documented...the one in your book that has...mmm on it ....looks just like my axe from factory hlw(well documented in charles wrays work with rochester museum science center) clearly dutch with a date of 1575-1610...mine doesnt have the mmm on it just that makers mark and the same drop tang(angle and shape)...others i have r different shape & drop tang and makers mark....like the ones at the top in the first black n white photo...from "rochester junction site" circa 1687 and burned out by denonvilles army....and clearly english/french also supported by other articles found mainly BEADS(good time markers)....again this is all well documented in history and in the allied documents of the jesuits...