1st Earl Beatty Heraldic Crest & Cypher seal - thoughts?

[randazzo1]

Good morning friends. Have this double sided spinner fob. One side has the crest of the 1st Earl of Beatty and the other side has his initials in a monogram cypher. Both sides are hand cut and are wax seals. The piece is made of sterling silver.

I never heard of "Earl Beatty" but I googled the crest and motto and was able to match it to Earl Beatty. He was made an Earl in 1919 and there is currently a third earl of Beatty who uses a slighly different crest (from what I can tell). The monogram on the back is the 1st Earl's initials. The seals are cool and I've been stamping them in silly puddy all morning.

Earl Beatty lead quite the life, played an important role in WWI and was at one point Admiral of the Fleet in Britain (That's from Wiki). Anyone have any ideas on how to value something like this? Bases on construction and design, I would have guessed it to be circa 1880 -- but that doesn't mesh with Beatty (only born in 1871). I would guess it dates the early 20th century. I don't think arms were awarded to Beatty until 1919 (when made Earl) but he may have a barony before that and possibly had the same arms I would appreciate any thoughts -- especially from those in the UK if you're reading. Thanks a lot. Rudyard (photo below)

 

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[randazzo1]

Additional photos below.

 

[randazzo1]

Poking around online -- here's a super cool old video of his funeral -- Admiral Of The Fleet Earl Beatty - British Pathé

 

[s.tan]

Very cool!! Great score!

 

[Tallone]

Anyone have any ideas on how to value something like this?

Here is a similar item that recently sold on ebay for $290:

Beautiful Victorian Sterling Silver Spinning Antique P w Seal Fob Pendant | eBay

 

[randazzo1]

Thanks Tallone - that's the first similar thing I've seen. Thanks for the link. It's much nicer than mine.

 

[Tallone]

That one may be nicer but if yours belonged to someone of historical significance that could make a big difference in value.

 

[diggummup]

Good morning friends. Have this double sided spinner fob. One side has the crest of the 1st Earl of Beatty and the other side has his initials in a monogram cypher. Both sides are hand cut and are wax seals. The piece is made of sterling silver.

I never heard of "Earl Beatty" but I googled the crest and motto and was able to match it to Earl Beatty. He was made an Earl in 1919 and there is currently a third earl of Beatty who uses a slighly different crest (from what I can tell). The monogram on the back is the 1st Earl's initials. The seals are cool and I've been stamping them in silly puddy all morning.

Earl Beatty lead quite the life, played an important role in WWI and was at one point Admiral of the Fleet in Britain (That's from Wiki). Anyone have any ideas on how to value something like this? Bases on construction and design, I would have guessed it to be circa 1880 -- but that doesn't mesh with Beatty (only born in 1871). I would guess it dates the early 20th century. I don't think arms were awarded to Beatty until 1919 (when made Earl) but he may have a barony before that and possibly had the same arms I would appreciate any thoughts -- especially from those in the UK if you're reading. Thanks a lot. Rudyard (photo below)

View attachment 1134224

You may have already saw this- Beatty Surname Meaning, Beatty Name History, Beatty Crests, Coat of Arms & Genealogy : MyFamilySilver.com It says this coat of arms was created on Sept. 27, 1919. I agree though, it does look like an older Victorian design. Nice piece for sure. Have you found an image of this exact coat of arms anywhere (with the beehive and bees)?

 

[randazzo1]

diggumup - I did not see that page. Thank you. I also have not seen these two devices (crest and arms) together. My understanding of heraldic items is there is a full coat of arms and a crest. The full coat is used for things like banners and large items whereas the crest is used for small items like siverware, car doors, etc. This little piece has the crest "Demi Lion with Crescent orb in Dexter Paw" and then the coat of arms below "Nine Bees Volante" (as opossed to 10 for the next guy from what I've read) and then Earl Beaty 1's motto Non Vi Sed Arte. I reached out to a few people including a guy at Bonhams who handles stuff like this but I'm still waiting to hear back from them. I spent a heck of a lot of time trying to find someone who might be offering something for sale. I believe Tallone is correct on the historical account. There are very few items belonging to earl's available for sale - even 20th century earls. The first guy I spoke to at the auction house thought there was "renewed interest in 20th century peers" on account of Downton Abbey's success. Very hard to try to place a dollar figure on it though. There's an additional complicating factor (courtesy of my business partner's eagerness to do "good") which I don't want to post here.

One thought I had was that perhaps it never had anything to do with Beatty and instead was given out at his funeral (it has a black ribbon) as like a memento to all the well wishers. I'm going to keep poking around and asking people until I can get a sense of where it may have come from and whether it's too valuable for me to just hold onto as another "collectible". And "too valuable" for me is a pretty low figure.

 

[randazzo1]

I just heard back from one of people I contacted and she said she found reference to a Beatty crest with the beehive that pre-dates Earl Beatty, so I may well have jumped the gun on associating it with the famous Beatty (faulty internet research!). However, she also said that the nine bees seems to only be associated with him -- she's still digging.

 

[diggummup]

I just heard back from one of people I contacted and she said she found reference to a Beatty crest with the beehive that pre-dates Earl Beatty, so I may well have jumped the gun on associating it with the famous Beatty (faulty internet research!). However, she also said that the nine bees seems to only be associated with him -- she's still digging.

Yes, it's definitely going to need some very in depth research with someone familiar with British heraldy. Coats of arms were awarded and specific to an individual as you know. They can be inherited, though there are slight differences or subtle modifications made to the original Arms to those inheritors.

A little added family history here- His dad was a captain, his grandfather was a justice of the peace and his great grandfather was also a captain. The all had the same first name of David. Here is his dad as well as links to the Earl and other family members- - Person Page 7165

What are those initials on the fob. I can never read that type of font, much less backwards.

 

[batcap]

I think the two people who would be most interested in this item are the 3rd Earl Beatty and the heir apparent, that also has a son to whom he may want to gift something like this. I mean it's not like you are trying to get the attention of the pope; there are earls all over the place. So why not at least consider reaching out to him? If They're not interested, no big deal. But who more than them would be curious to know how such an object made it to the USA?

Jeez, let me rephrase . . .
Who would be more interested in this object than the 3rd Earl Beatty, age approx 68; the apparent 4th Earl Beatty, age approx 42; or the apparent 5th Earl Beatty, age approx 12?