AT Pro Pull Tab:Nickel:Gold Ratio Experiement

[RobRieman]

Hi, Reading through this thread I have a newbie question. Having a BH Quick Silver with VERY limited discrimination abilities I was sure some "middle range" more advance machines, like your AT Pro, are able to successfully discriminate metals bringing the tabs rate close to 0...Can't you just set AT Pro to "react" only to gold/silver? Thank you.

Hi algeus and welcome aboard! No machine regardless of quality or price can reliably discriminate between gold and tabs. Both metals hit in the same VDI range and depending on size, K, depth, angle in the ground, soil conditions, etc complicates things even further. You have to dig the tabs and can slaw to get the gold.

 

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[Jeremy S]

A ring is a concentric object so it will usually be a good repeatable signal with a VDI that is a pretty solid number.... unless it is laying close to other trash or in a weird angle. The last two gold rings that I found were a solid 52 (same as nickels) and a solid 60 (same as old style pull tabs), both were 10k.

A complete tab is non-concentric and tends to have a VDI that bounces around a bit. Tabs can also be bent or in pieces that will make them ID exactly like a ring. A complete old style pull tab is usually 55-60, and they tend to have a VDI that will vary in that range. Not all tabs are created equal so they come in a large variety of sizes and shapes. A newer tab is usually a solid VDI in the 52-55 range. Nickels are almost always a solid 51-53.

You can discriminate out some tabs if you watch the VDI numbers, but if you try to find nickels or gold you are going to find tabs. The only way to avoid digging tabs is to try to find a place where there are not many or to avoid targets in the nickel/tab range all together.

The purpose of this thread is to see what my ratio of tabs are to gold. I have read many speculative estimates online but few few with actual numbers. At this rate I am guessing my ratio will be over 600:1.

 

[algeus]

Hi algeus and welcome aboard! No machine regardless of quality or price can reliably discriminate between gold and tabs. Both metals hit in the same VDI range and depending on size, K, depth, angle in the ground, soil conditions, etc complicates things even further. You have to dig the tabs and can slaw to get the gold.

Thank you for your answer.
Looks like I was too naive. Well, back to the tabs...

 

[Eureka!]

The purpose of this thread is to see what my ratio of tabs are to gold. I have read many speculative estimates online but few few with actual numbers. At this rate I am guessing my ratio will be over 600:1.

By reading numerous threads on the Garrett Forum and following the advice of John Edmonton with regard to the Garrett AT PRO and after twenty+- 4hr. outings searching on beaches, in woods, next to sidewalks, on private properties, Athletic Fields, and a few streams; today, I finally found my first GOLD RING.

I was in an Athletic Field I happen to hit on a particular area where I pulled numerous coins and Three Pull Tabs (pennies, a nickel, dimes, and quarters) out of the ground) just minutes before I found the ring. With my AT PRO, I have found numerous pennies, dimes and quarters but hardly any Nickels so finding yet another Nickel to add to my collection was "banner" for me. I noticed that the Nickel was a MID-TONE AUDIO and a SOLID 56 on the VDI and the PULL TABS [TONE] was the same but the VDI read all over the place 50's.

So after finding the Nickel (yay!) I'm thinking that I have to see if there are more Nickels around here and I'm swinging and I'm HEARING MID-TONES with VDI reading "all over the place 50's" - so now I'm listening and looking at the VDI and the tones didn't change but in this one spot I get a solid unchanging 46 BUT NO CHANGE IN THE MID -TONES and a reading of Four inches down. I say to myself: "I gotta dig this because I hardly ever get a SOLID 46 and I'd like to know just what the heck it could be for future reference." IT WAS GOLD!

So IMHO the pull tab (with me at least) theory is out the window - It all boils down to:

1. Equipment knowledge
2. Equipment capability and settings
3. Past experiences of yours and others on this forum
4. Site Selection - places where large amounts of people once or still frequent (after all - people are the ones that leave thing or lose things).
5. Site Evaluation - Choosing the most likely place of the Site to locate finds ( i.e.; on a path, next to trees, any place where large amounts of people occupied).
5. Site Conditions (clean or trashy)
6. LUCK (which exponentially increases after special attention is given to #4 above).

Going by what you report (600:1 pull tabs to a gold ring); I'm inclined to believe that you have BAD LUCK so work on #4 would be my novice advice.

John Edmonton's advice: If you want to find GOLD the best place to go is underwater ((#4 - location, location, location - no pull-tabs there).

 

[RobRieman]

Oh there are plenty of pull tabs in the water too.

 

[BryanM362]

I like your experiment, but for me it just isn't worth the time and effort to dig 1,000 holes to possibly find gold.

Then again, I am partial to silver coins.

 

[Jeremy S]

While there has been some good advice and knowledge shared on here I just wanted to clear up a few things. Yes, I know how to use my equipment quite well. Yes, I am aware that detecting in the water at a good beach will produce more gold. No, I'm not having BAD LUCK as I have plenty of good sites to hunt that produce some cool things (as shown in previous posts). A handful of the tabs that I have found were surface finds, probably left on the ground from the last guy detecting.

I am simply retrieving more targets in the tab range just for my own statistical purposes. And lastly, no, I haven't completely lost my mind just yet (when that ratio reaches 1000 tabs to 0 gold I may be well on my way to losing it ).


I'm guessing the final ratios will be 700 tabs, 100 nickels, and 1 gold. +/- 20%. That is hunting a mixture of old properties, trashy parks, newer less trashy parks, and sports fields where soccer and baseball are played

Let's hear your guesses on the actual ratio!

 

[Jeremy S]

Added 27 more tabs and a couple of nickels to the count today. My planned hunt this afternoon got cut short due to some HVAC issues.

 

[Kodiak43351]

Talking about going after other detectors I went last weekend and run across smashed dirty aluminum cans and a poorly replaced plug nearby. I even found a black label beer can next to a plug and I was a kid when I last seen black label beer around here. Needless to say I picked all these up and put in container that is set aside for caretaker of fairgrounds because he doesn't make much and turns the cans in. I've had many conversations with him and let him come behind me and see if he could figure out where I dug. He found one out of over ten. I told him that I don't want to lose this spot so I was making sure I was leaving no trash behind and leaving my plugs as undetectable as possible. I know I sound like I'm ringing my own bell here but please be a good hunter and don't mess it up for the rest of us. This is just a broad statement only meant for someone who may not be doing it rite. I have been keeping my tabs also from everywhere I hunt and giving to caretaker. I know I dig a lot of tabs also because I just can't pass on that signal but I'm not keeping track but I know I've dug a lot of them and a few nickels and one 14k piece of jewelry so if you keep at it one of those pull tabs or nickels will be gold. I also know if I want to up my gold count I need to get to a beach or swimming hole. Been looking at one I may try this weekend. Good luck everyone.

 

[Jeremy S]

Talking about going after other detectors I went last weekend and run across smashed dirty aluminum cans and a poorly replaced plug nearby. I even found a black label beer can next to a plug and I was a kid when I last seen black label beer around here. Needless to say I picked all these up and put in container that is set aside for caretaker of fairgrounds because he doesn't make much and turns the cans in. I've had many conversations with him and let him come behind me and see if he could figure out where I dug. He found one out of over ten. I told him that I don't want to lose this spot so I was making sure I was leaving no trash behind and leaving my plugs as undetectable as possible. I know I sound like I'm ringing my own bell here but please be a good hunter and don't mess it up for the rest of us. This is just a broad statement only meant for someone who may not be doing it rite. I have been keeping my tabs also from everywhere I hunt and giving to caretaker. I know I dig a lot of tabs also because I just can't pass on that signal but I'm not keeping track but I know I've dug a lot of them and a few nickels and one 14k piece of jewelry so if you keep at it one of those pull tabs or nickels will be gold. I also know if I want to up my gold count I need to get to a beach or swimming hole. Been looking at one I may try this weekend. Good luck everyone.

A plug is a terrible idea in dry weather like this and it would almost certainly kill the grass. Most all of the items you see in my pictures were retrieved using a brass probe and a screwdriver. Others were found in the loose dirt at a construction site. Almost every ring that I have found in the past (gold, silver, or junk) was less than a couple of inches deep. The deepest was a large mens ring (junk) that way maybe 6-8" in a yard. While I have seen some deeper, most of the tabs were only a few inches as well, easy to get with a probe.

I dare say if someone went behind me they would be lucky to find 1 in 50 spots where I retrieved an object. I take great pride in leaving no trace behind

 

[Kodiak43351]

It's still pretty wet here but when it's really dry I'll use a screw driver to get items out. When I say plug I should say very small not much bigger than the item. I can pinpoint very well with my machine and use pinpointer to find it if it's close to surface and pop it out. I havnt killed any grass as I go to this spot often and you cant see any dry spots. When I first started I dug only on my yard and I learned the hard way about killing grass in dry weather so I'm very careful on other properties. In the fields the sampson comes out because they are plowed. I was stating the fact that other people who dig at some of these popular sites toss the junk in yard next to where they dug it out. I'm sure they leave some in hole and cover if they are throwing trash on ground. I have yet to see someone doing this but when I do I'll ask them to stop. I just see the aftermath.

 

[Eureka!]

As far as a guess for ratios of Pull-tabs to Nickels to Gold goes - based on all types of sites - in any state county, city, town, village, hamlet, cove would be like guessing how many steps it would take to get to the Moon.

I would like to offer this though:

If you're at a site and you are digging lots of "pull-tabs" (tabs that detached from the can) then it almost guaranteed that you'll be pulling a few coins out of the ground that are dated in the 1960's. The reason I say this is that the "pull-tab" was invented in 1959 and by 1963 about 40 Breweries were using pull-tabs. The pull-tabs created problems: like injuries, and pollution.

In 1970 there was a change in design and it was called the "sta-tab." The sta-tab solved the problem of the tab separating from the can and was made using aluminum on aluminum cans. So if you are you are pulling a lot of PULL-TABS out of the ground -BUT- no coins or gold then what does that tell you? To me that means that either someone beat me to the booty and left the PULL-TABS for me to find or there were a whole lot of thirsty people that kept track of and didn't lose any of their money or jewelry.

"Most all of the items you see in my pictures were retrieved using a brass probe and a screwdriver"

I would gladly use a probe and a screwdriver (for coin and ring shooting - not relics) but I can't seem get the concept; even after watching a few videos on the subject. One video shows coins just popping out of the ground like the guy had mental telepathy or something. I have a hard enough time just trying to pinpoint let alone judging the correct depth.

 

[Jeremy S]

Hunted the old construction site again. This site is very trashy but the more of the trash that I get out of the way the more good stuff I find. I use the 5x8 coil as it does of excellent job of separating close together targets, otherwise this site would be very difficult to hunt. There is a lot of large pieces of iron deep in the ground that that really make things interesting.

Got my second IH for this week, a 1904 that looks to be in great shape under the dirt. Also found 6 wheats, but still need to wash the mud off to see the dates. Added 19 tabs to the total count.

So if you are you are pulling a lot of PULL-TABS out of the ground -BUT- no coins or gold then what does that tell you? To me that means that either someone beat me to the booty and left the PULL-TABS for me to find or there were a whole lot of thirsty people that kept track of and didn't lose any of their money or jewelry.

You have probably read about trash that can mask out a good target. I have pulled silver quarters out from under nails before (a faint, non-repeatable high tone and the iron audio was going nuts). At another site behind a baseball dugout I once chose a small section and removed as many of the tabs as possible. When returning a week after one of my hunts there I pulled two wheat pennies out of the same area where I found the tabs. Before removing the tabs you couldn't swing your coil more than a few inches without it hitting a shallow tab, not to mention the bits of chain link wire and nails. With those out of the way I could hear faint, deeper high tone targets.

Some areas are just loaded with trash and unless you are on a crazy quest such as myself then I would avoid them. I cleaned out the small area at the baseball field as it dates to the early 1940s and the layout has never changed in that time. The "low hanging fruit" silver and clad have been long cleaned out but under the layer of trash there are probably some more good finds hiding. I don't make a habit of hunting it but do still stop by on the occasional afternoon when I only have half a hour to hunt to cherry pick for fresh dropped items and retrieve a few older targets in the ground.

As far as my ratio. Keep in mind this is not some sort of "official statistic" that applies to everyone and all across the country. This is just my personal quest out of sheer curiosity. If I hit a beach next week (which I will) and found some gold in the water I wouldn't include it in this count. I'm only hunting areas on land which may include private and public properties (both seem to be loaded with trash and tabs).

 

[Eureka!]

You have probably read about trash that can mask out a good target. I have pulled silver quarters out from under nails before (a faint, non-repeatable high tone and the iron audio was going nuts).

IVE HAD THE SAME EXACT EXPERIENCE - (AS ABOVE)

At another site behind a baseball dugout I once chose a small section and removed as many of the tabs as possible. When returning a week after one of my hunts there I pulled two wheat pennies out of the same area where I found the tabs. Before removing the tabs you couldn't swing your coil more than a few inches without it hitting a shallow tab, not to mention the bits of chain link wire and nails. With those out of the way I could hear faint, deeper high tone targets. Some areas are just loaded with trash and unless you are on a crazy quest such as myself then I would avoid them.

BASEBALL DUGOUTS- I have found more coins and less Pull-Tabs BEHIND dugouts then inside the dugout. Possible reason: After the game, the team members and team members friends congregate there for small talk before they leave the field. During this time, a lot is going on like sipping drinks, reaching in and out of bags for things etc.

I cleaned out the small area at the baseball field as it dates to the early 1940s and the layout has never changed in that time. The "low hanging fruit" silver and clad have been long cleaned out but under the layer of trash there are probably some more good finds hiding.

OLD ATHLETIC FIELDS - Most fields in my area were covered with at least 4" of trucked in topsoil. I would bet that some of the things you find were actually TRANSPORTED to the field in the newly laid soil. I Found a mercury dime in my own yard in soil that was brought in for landscaping purposes.

As far as my ratio. Keep in mind this is not some sort of "official statistic" that applies to everyone and all across the country. This is just my personal quest out of sheer curiosity. If I hit a beach next week (which I will) and found some gold in the water I wouldn't include it in this count. I'm only hunting areas on land which may include private and public properties (both seem to be loaded with trash and tabs).

Great finds - keep up the good work and good luck on your personal quest >

Some of my finds-

 

[Jeremy S]

Bad weather and other projects have kept me from hunting metal for almost a week. Went to a park this morning that has produced gold and silver in the past to do some coin shooting. Added 7 tabs and 4 nickles to the count. Might hit a few of the construction sites again, my time to hunt them is running out fast!

Last year I pulled over $40 in clad out of this particular park, that included over 800 pennies, mostly pre-1982 copper. One those, only one 1953 wheat and a 1959 Canadian. I wonder if somebody didn't seed the ground with pennies 20+ years ago?

 

[Eureka!]

Bad weather and other projects have kept me from hunting metal for almost a week. Went to a park this morning that has produced gold and silver in the past to do some coin shooting. Added 7 tabs and 4 nickles to the count. Might hit a few of the construction sites again, my time to hunt them is running out fast! Last year I pulled over $40 in clad out of this particular park, that included over 800 pennies, mostly pre-1982 copper. One those, only one 1953 wheat and a 1959 Canadian. I wonder if somebody didn't seed the ground with pennies 20+ years ago? <img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1042780"/>

I was searching in an athletic field (park) this weekend too. I learned that the nearer I was to the edge of a field, the more pull tabs showed up. I decided to hit the middle of the field (usually no drinkers out there) and found nothing but coins - [all 1990 dimes and ironic enough all 1970's pennies -Quarters (mostly 2000's) NOT ONE NICKEL!] - Out in the field, when I got a signal - bang! Coin! - most were around 4" down though- only once did I hit a pull-tab out in the field - and when I did (VDI= 54/55), I thought for sure it was going to be gold.

One thing I noticed about my AT PRO is that most of the times, the Ground Depth Indicator (GDI) is not too accurate (GDI on your unit the same?). I could basically cut the number in half with mine - if it reads 10" and I dig, it'll end up that it was only at 5" - even when it reads 2" the target is at 1" - the reason I am sure of this is because my pin-pointer will only detect something that's at the maximum of 1.5" away. Maybe seven out of ten times if I get a target depth of 4" I'll get "hit" using my pin-pointer (Vulcan360) before my shovel touches the ground.

The reason why I bring this up is because, before I realized this, I was making plugs that were HUGE and having a hard time to neatly cover my tracks. I don't want the facility dept. banning me or others because of bad practices.

This is my first year at MD'ng so I'll ask the stupid question: What do you mean by "my time to hunt is running out fast?"

 

[Kodiak43351]

Prob because the weather is changing fast where he lives. Snow and metal detecting doesn't mix well because a few inches of snow and your detector is only going to hit on shallow targets and forget digging in frozen ground. I hunt up till November and then hit it every now and then in fields and woods weather and snowfall depth permitting. It's a lot easier to dig a chisel plowed field than a yard when ground is frozen. Those targets can wait till the next warm up.

 

[Jeremy S]

I have been fighting a nasty sickness that slowed me down significantly for the last week. On top of that it has been off and on storms here for about a week coupled with very hot weather.

Went back to the construction site that has been producing very well for me. They have already backfilled most of the area and are starting to pour concrete so my window to hunt the few remaining areas where they have been moving dirt is running out fast. Tomorrow will probably be my last day there. The fill dirt is packed full of targets, but mostly bits of aluminum cans and sta-tabs.

I only found one wheat penny today and a small handfull of clad and pennies. Other interesting items include a harmonica reed, some kind of small bottle opener, a Matchbox car, two keys, and a metal emblem (perhaps from a car rim?). Added 34 tabs and 1 nickel to my count.

One thing I noticed about my AT PRO is that most of the times, the Ground Depth Indicator (GDI) is not too accurate (GDI on your unit the same?). I could basically cut the number in half with mine - if it reads 10" and I dig, it'll end up that it was only at 5" - even when it reads 2" the target is at 1" - the reason I am sure of this is because my pin-pointer will only detect something that's at the maximum of 1.5" away. Maybe seven out of ten times if I get a target depth of 4" I'll get "hit" using my pin-pointer (Vulcan360) before my shovel touches the ground.

My GDI seems somewhat accurate. A coin right on the surface may show up at 2", but it will be a nice loud tone. Old coins that are 3-4" + and that have been in the ground a long time tend to be more non-repeatable signals that throw the GDI off a bit. I don't fully rely on my GDI indication, but I do use it to know a decent depth estimate. I always scan the ground first with my Pro Pointer, sometimes using my brass probe held to the side of the pointer to add a bit more depth. If the Pro Pointer doesn't sense the target first, I'll do a more precise pin point job using the AT Pro in an "X" type of pin point pattern and then dig for the target. Its tough to describe my exact routine, I've done it so many times that I don't even think about it anymore.

This is my first year at MD'ng so I'll ask the stupid question: What do you mean by "my time to hunt is running out fast?"

I was referring to the construction site that I have been hunting as they demo existing structures and dig with heavy machinery. It is a massive city project that also included several blocks of sidewalks in a 150 year old part of town being torn out. Unfortunately when they tore most of the sidewalks out, the same day they put in fresh gravel and packed it down which made hunting the area almost impossible. When I say time is running out, they are finishing up much of the excavating work and starting to bring in fresh fill dirt for some areas, and pouring concrete for various parts of the project. Many of the areas where I found old coins are now under concrete, gravel, or several feet of new dirt.

Construction sites where they tear down old buildings, sidewalk tear-outs, and street tear-outs can make for some fun places to hunt. You have to move fast though as they typically don't leave the freshly exposed ground full of good targets exposed for long. Other guys who detect, many who are retired and can beat me to the spots, often hit the places hard and cherry pick the minute the construction workers leave for the day. That probably explains why I have not found any silver at this particular site as it is very easy to find. (although I have seen no signs of anyone else detecting, and the locals who come out and talk to me each afternoon never mention anyone else).

 

[Eureka!]

Just for fun I have decided to keep a running ratio of pull tabs to nickels to gold, Some estimates online say that the ratio of pull tabs to gold is around 500:1. Another fellow posted his results online and for him it was 153:1. Any guesses what mine will be?

Sorry to hear that your experienced some sort of sickness - hope all is ok now. As I'm reading about your experiences, I almost feel as if I'm reading something that I wrote about myself. Looking at the last picture you posted of your finds is like looking at a picture of the things that I find too (keys, the car, crappy coins, pop-tops, bent up aluminum cans,, scraps of wire, UBO'S (unidentifiable buried object),etc.

Back to your experiment - Looks like you added enough pop-tops or pull-tabs so that now your around 450 pull-tabs : approx. 50 nickels : zero gold. YOUR GETTING CLOSER TO YOUR ESTIMATE 500 : 1! GOLD IS IN YOUR NEAR FUTURE!

There's an interesting controversy going on in another thread, where it was posed: Which makes more sense - searching for coins ONLY (digging only upper 70's tones) and finding 500 useless clad coins per year or searching for Gold only (digging only 50 - 60 tones) and finding 1 or 2 heavy gold rings per year?

What it boils down to is: Is it better to 'Cherry pick' or is the 'dig everything school' better or more profitable?

What that somewhat boils down to is PURPOSE: Are you in it for 'profit' - are you in it for fun - to pass time - or to find antique relics or treasure?

I'm in it for all of the above (but I still hate pull-tabs).

GOOD LUCK and HAPPY FINDING!

 

[Jeremy S]

Finds from another two hour hunt tonight at the construction site. This time the area had a decent amount of pull style tabs, I found 23 of those. Also found 3 wheat pennies (1919, 1936, 1956), a nickel, two clad dimes, a clad quarter, a mixture of memorial copper and zinc cents, and a clip on ear ring. Mostly of this came from a freshly dug area.

What it boils down to is: Is it better to 'Cherry pick' or is the 'dig everything school' better or more profitable?

What that somewhat boils down to is PURPOSE: Are you in it for 'profit' - are you in it for fun - to pass time - or to find antique relics or treasure?

I'm in it for all of the above (but I still hate pull-tabs).

GOOD LUCK and HAPPY FINDING!

I do this for fun. I enjoy history, antiques, and the thrill of the hunt; so this is the perfect hobby for me. I keep all of my finds, except for a trash can full of aluminum cans that I cashed in earlier this year with some other metals. In regards to cherry picking or digging everything, that all just comes down to personal preference and for me it highly depends on what type of location that I am hunting. It is becoming increasingly harder to find a site that has not been cherry picked by someone in the past, especially for silver coins. Metal detecting has been a popular hobby for over 40 years and even the earliest detectors could find a good silver target easily so the "low hanging fruit" has been picked to some degree. Silver has not been produced for general circulation for almost 50 years now (excluding US Mint sets and the 40% half dollars).

As for my thoughts on cherry picking a location. If I am hunting some private property where I will only have a limited amount of time, I usually start out by gridding off the area and detecting with my 8-1/2 x 11 DD coil. That way I can cover more ground and go for the good targets, but it also allows me to survey the location and determine what areas are producing the most. I then grid the area again walk in a perpendicular grid pattern from what I previously hunted. For the trashy areas, I usually return to those with my 5x8 DD coil. Time permitting, I then grid the area again with either coil and dig more deep iffy targets. Each time you return over an area that you have gridded off you remove more and more garbage that unmasks deeper targets. Sometimes I will play around with the ground balance some and tweak other settings.

As for a hunting park, I usually hunt the areas that experience the most activity and just do a large grid pattern using the 8-1/2 x 11 DD coil. At parks I usually go after shallow targets, less than 4 inches, as I am using a brass probe to retrieve everything. Some parks are so full of trash that they are simply not worth the trouble unless you do a quick scan with a 5x8 coil to get the good easy targets.

As for the construction site, I have only been using the 5x8 DD coil. The ground is full of iron pieces, everything from crushed pieces of old cast iron pipes to pieces of metal siding and nails. The 5x8 has better target separation that my larger coil. It is also a very rugged terrain and the 5x8 is small, allowing me to better swing over most areas. I dig everything at the construction site as the ground has centuries of history in this particular area. Plus it is very easy to dig here, the ground is already torn up so you can retrieve targets fast and not worry about making a mess. I still push the dirt back into any hole that I dig.

These are just some of my personal ways of hunting. I am always trying and learning new techniques that I read about on TN. This holiday weekend I am going to hit some parks that have frequent concerts (where I have previously found gold). Maybe, just maybe, I can hit that 500:1 ratio goal.