Price fixing?

OWK

Hero Member
Apr 26, 2014
998
1,291
North Central Md
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Fisher F70, F75
Garrett Pinpointer
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They are likely contractually obligated to offer the detector for no less than "x" by the manufacturer, for some period of time.
 

pgfhgs

Sr. Member
Dec 23, 2014
255
141
Sedona AZ
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Whites V3i, AT Pro, Ace 250, Tesoro, Teknetics, Bounty Hunter EQ 800
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They are likely contractually obligated to offer the detector for no less than "x" by the manufacturer, for some period of time.

That is exactly what it is so when new ask what they can do for "extras" that's where it changes drastically. Otherwise buy used on Ebay or one of the vendors here!
 

OP
OP
Wahoo

Wahoo

Jr. Member
Jul 9, 2013
24
24
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That is exactly what it is so when new ask what they can do for "extras" that's where it changes drastically. Otherwise buy used on Ebay or one of the vendors here!
You see it is that "Contract" which IMHO is price fixing ! It is against the law for manufacturers or anybody for that matter to agree on a set or "Fixed" price thereby stopping the fair market valuation of items to be sought by consumers. In other words it is an unfair business practice that prevents us consumers from getting better deals on Metal detectors from sellers willing to force manufacturers to sell based on performance etc....
 

OWK

Hero Member
Apr 26, 2014
998
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North Central Md
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Fisher F70, F75
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I see no problem with the practice of manufacturers establishing a price floor for their products as a condition of distributorship.

The free market provides options in the form of competitive machines.

The free market provides you as the consumer the opportunity to choose to buy, or not to buy.

It does not offer you the opportunity to demand that the manufacturer offer a lower price.

Your choice not to buy, is the price pressure you as a consumer can bring to bear.
 

OP
OP
Wahoo

Wahoo

Jr. Member
Jul 9, 2013
24
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https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...itrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing

Price Fixing

Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, or inferred from conduct) among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms. Generally, the antitrust laws require that each company establish prices and other terms on its own, without agreeing with a competitor. When consumers make choices about what products and services to buy, they expect that the price has been determined freely on the basis of supply and demand, not by an agreement among competitors. When competitors agree to restrict competition, the result is often higher prices. Accordingly, price fixing is a major concern of government antitrust enforcement.

A plain agreement among competitors to fix prices is almost always illegal, whether prices are fixed at a minimum, maximum, or within some range. Illegal price fixing occurs whenever two or more competitors agree to take actions that have the effect of raising, lowering or stabilizing the price of any product or service without any legitimate justification. Price-fixing schemes are often worked out in secret and can be hard to uncover, but an agreement can be discovered from "circumstantial" evidence. For example, if direct competitors have a pattern of unexplained identical contract terms or price behavior together with other factors (such as the lack of legitimate business explanation), unlawful price fixing may be the reason. Invitations to coordinate prices also can raise concerns, as when one competitor announces publicly that it is willing to end a price war if its rival is willing to do the same, and the terms are so specific that competitors may view this as an offer to set prices jointly.

Not all price similarities, or price changes that occur at the same time, are the result of price fixing. On the contrary, they often result from normal market conditions. For example, prices of commodities such as wheat are often identical because the products are virtually identical, and the prices that farmers charge all rise and fall together without any agreement among them. If a drought causes the supply of wheat to decline, the price to all affected farmers will increase. An increase in consumer demand can also cause uniformly high prices for a product in limited supply.

Price fixing relates not only to prices, but also to other terms that affect prices to consumers, such as shipping fees, warranties, discount programs, or financing rates. Antitrust scrutiny may occur when competitors discuss the following topics:

Present or future prices
Pricing policies
Promotions
Bids
Costs
Capacity
Terms or conditions of sale, including credit terms
Discounts
Identity of customers
Allocation of customers or sales areas
Production quotas
R&D plans

A defendant is allowed to argue that there was no agreement, but if the government or a private party proves a plain price-fixing agreement, there is no defense to it. Defendants may not justify their behavior by arguing that the prices were reasonable to consumers, were necessary to avoid cut-throat competition, or stimulated competition.

Example: A group of competing optometrists agreed not to participate in a vision care network unless the network raised reimbursement rates for patients covered by its plan. The optometrists refused to treat patients covered by the network plan, and, eventually, the company raised reimbursement rates. The FTC said that the optometrists' agreement was illegal price fixing, and that its leaders had organized an effort to make sure other optometrists knew about and complied with the agreement.

An agreement to restrict production, sales, or output is just as illegal as direct price fixing, because reducing the supply of a product or service drives up its price. For example, the FTC challenged an agreement among competing oil importers to restrict the supply of lubricants by refusing to import or sell those products in Puerto Rico. The competitors were seeking to pressure the legislature to repeal an environmental deposit fee on lubricants, and warned of lubricant shortages and higher prices. The FTC alleged that the conspiracy was an unlawful horizontal agreement to restrict output that was inherently likely to harm competition and that had no countervailing efficiencies that would benefit consumers.

Q: The gasoline stations in my area have increased their prices the same amount and at the same time. Is that price fixing?

A: A uniform, simultaneous price change could be the result of price fixing, but it could also be the result of independent business responses to the same market conditions. For example, if conditions in the international oil market cause an increase in the price of crude oil, this could lead to an increase in the wholesale price of gasoline. Local gasoline stations may respond to higher wholesale gasoline prices by increasing their prices to cover these higher costs. Other market forces, such as publicly posting current prices (as is common with most gasoline stations), encourages suppliers to adjust their own prices quickly in order not to lose sales. If there is evidence that the gasoline station operators talked to each other about increasing prices and agreed on a common pricing plan, however, that may be an antitrust violation.

Q: Our company monitors competitors' ads, and we sometimes offer to match special discounts or sales incentives for consumers. Is this a problem?

A: No. Matching competitors' pricing may be good business, and occurs often in highly competitive markets. Each company is free to set its own prices, and it may charge the same price as its competitors as long as the decision was not based on any agreement or coordination with a competitor.
 

S

stefen

Guest
I'd jump on board with supportive comments, however in my opinion this is a one sided vent.

Arguments seldom convince the opponent to cross over.

Think I'll sort my sock drawer.

Astalabyby...
 

OWK

Hero Member
Apr 26, 2014
998
1,291
North Central Md
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Fisher F70, F75
Garrett Pinpointer
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You seem to be missing the fact that there are dozens if not hundreds of competitive manufacturers of metal detectors in the world.

And that there is no collusion to fix the price of all "metal detectors" (which would be a price-fixing scheme).

Only a distribution agreement for a specific metal detector, which might specify a minimum price for that single metal detector.

Sorry.. I just don't think you understand the concept.

But you are of course free to seek remedy if you feel your rights as a consumer have been violated. (which they haven't)
 

Treasure_Hunter

Administrator
Staff member
Jul 27, 2006
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Florida
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Minelab_Equinox_ 800 Minelab_CTX-3030 Minelab_Excal_1000 Minelab_Sovereign_GT Minelab_Safari Minelab_ETrac Whites_Beach_Hunter_ID Fisher_1235_X
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You see it is that "Contract" which IMHO is price fixing ! It is against the law for manufacturers or anybody for that matter to agree on a set or "Fixed" price thereby stopping the fair market valuation of items to be sought by consumers. In other words it is an unfair business practice that prevents us consumers from getting better deals on Metal detectors from sellers willing to force manufacturers to sell based on performance etc....
Manufacturers simply tell them you can't sell our product below $X dollars and be a distributor of our product. There is a high and low range they can sell at. If they sell below the range they lose the advantage of being a dealer and being able to buy at a discount....
 

John-Edmonton

Silver Member
Mar 21, 2005
4,395
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Canada
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Garrett- Master Hunter CX,Infinium, 1350, 2500, ACE 150-water converted 250, GTA 500,1500 Scorpion, AT Pro
I think you are referring to the MSRP. That is the same price on all ads. There is a mark-up for profit. Your job is to see what kind of a deal you can get. In reality, people are not all paying the same price.
 

Phantasman

Gold Member
Nov 24, 2006
15,689
23,670
NE Tennessee
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Nokta Simplex, Land Ranger Pro, Quick Draw Pro, Deteknix XPointer
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The term is called MAP. Minimum Advertised Price. It helps protect dealers that has a soul investment in detectors and hardware. A large company like KellyCo cannot advertise the same detectors for less simply because they sell many more than the smaller mom and pop dealers. The MD industry relies on dealers for after the sale instruction and help. Try getting that in a WalMart. MD dealers are users as well, many veterans.

FTP does allow Bounty Hunter detectors to be sold without regard to MAP. That is why chain stores sell them and MD dealers don't.
 

Sandman

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Aug 6, 2005
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In Michigan now.
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Try going to a dealer to check out their machines and get instructions on its use and then walking out the door to buy it online.
 

CaballoDeOro

Full Member
Jun 29, 2012
106
62
Southwest MO
Detector(s) used
Garrett AT Pro, Tesoro Cibola
Primary Interest:
Metal Detecting
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...itrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing
Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, or inferred from conduct) among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms.

See where I added the underscore and bold to the first line of your price fixing piece? That's where your argument falls down, because Minimum Advertised Price is an agreement between the manufacturer and the dealer, not between manufacturers.

Price fixing is only in play if competitors agree to hold prices artificially high in order to restrict or remove the consumer's choices. If Garrett made an agreement with Tesoro that they wouldn't sell the Ace 250 for less than $400 if Tesoro promised to not sell the Cibola for less than $400, THAT would be illegal price fixing. However, Garrett telling their dealers that they won't do business with them if they sell their detectors for less than the MAP is 100% legal.
 

ohiochris

Full Member
May 6, 2009
182
48
Yep , not price fixing....as someone else mentioned it is the minimum ADVERTISED price , which is an agreement the dealer entered into with the company. This is not however the lowest price they will sell the item for. Your mission , should you choose to accept it.....is to contact the dealer directly and get their TRUE lowest price....which can be anywhere from like ( for example ) $20 on up to $100 or more less than the advertised price...depending on the particular brand or model. They generally have a fair bit of wiggle room on the price when you contact them directly , just remember though that they have to make an acceptable profit , so they can only wiggle so much.
 

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