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Thread: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

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  1. #1
    us
    Feb 2009
    Moscow-ish, Pa
    Minelab X-Terra 705 w/7.5&3kHz coils
    364

    Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    OK....I don't even have my MD yet, but I've been thinking about a 'What if...' scenario.

    So suppose an MD'ers dream comes true and a high value cache is found.
    Valuable enough that any attempt at appraising it or just sharing the news will attract a lot of attention.
    Under what circumstances would the MD'er HAVE to reveal where the cache was found?

    I'd imagine that saaaayyyyy a cache of 100 $5 gold coins is discovered. One proper step may be to take out 'notices' in all the area newspapers stating that a large sum of money has been unearthed in 'whatever' county. Anyone wanting to claim, reply with detail to XXXXX.
    Let that run for 30 days (or whatever is req'd by law)...and if no one comes forward with CORRECT information (there will be a bunch of yahoo's responding)....it's yours. Is that how it works? I know that is how it works for sums of money just found on the street (ex....paper bag with $2,000 in twenty dollar bills). Report to police, post notice in paper for required amount of time. No takers? It's yours!


    Do not take dig permission into account for two reasons....1.) Permission is an understood given and, 2.) the whole point of my scenario is NOT wanting to reveal where cache so-and-so was dug up.


    What are your thoughts


    -
    Gary in Pennsylvania
    -------------------------------
    “No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
    “Argue For Your Limitations……And Sure Enough, They’re Yours.” Messiah's Handbook
    “The unexamined life is not worth living.” Socrates 399BC

  2. #2
    us
    Mar 2009
    Illiniois
    Fisher F70 with 11"DD coil, CZ-21 with 10" coil, Fisher 1265X
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    Of course there are two answers to this question. The 1st is the moral and decent thing to do. Upon finding your treasure you notify the land owner of your find. You should also try and figure out the age of the cache and see who owned the property during that time. Surely any survivors should get there share. Also, you want to make sure the IRS and the State's department of revenue know about the find so that they can get their fair share. Once everything has been properly handled you will be happy with your "finders fee" that you can collect with a clean conscience. The 2nd answer is.............well gosh, I guess there was only one way to handle that after all.
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  3. #3
    us
    Jul 2003
    Elgin
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    I have found several caches on public property, all appear to be the work of the same demented fool(s) who(m) ran higgity hog around town burying one cent coins in groups of 9-10 between the 1890's and the 1930's. I doubt they're looking at the paper to see if anyone recovered them.

    I'd feel the same way if I recovered 4,000,000 bucks in blue duffel bags wrapped in 100,000 dollar bundles with saran wrap last Friday near the east bank of the National Street Bridge.

  4. #4
    us
    Feb 2009
    Moscow-ish, Pa
    Minelab X-Terra 705 w/7.5&3kHz coils
    364

    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    Quote Originally Posted by limegoldconvertible68
    Of course there are two answers to this question. The 1st is the moral and decent thing to do.
    True….but what does law say?


    Quote Originally Posted by limegoldconvertible68
    Upon finding your treasure you notify the land owner of your find.
    ‘Should’ takes us back to moral and decent. What does law say?


    Quote Originally Posted by limegoldconvertible68
    You should also try and figure out the age of the cache and see who owned the property during that time. Surely any survivors should get there share.
    What the heck does THAT have anything to do with it?!? The house I BOUGHT has a beautiful apple tree planted by the previous owners. What part of that apple tree, the ground it’s planted on, and the roots that extends down, do ANY previous owners have any rights to?!? Caches, I would assume, transfer with the deed from one property owner to the next. The Clampet family of 1886 has nuthin’ to do with the Styers who own the land today.



    Quote Originally Posted by limegoldconvertible68
    Also, you want to make sure the IRS and the State's department of revenue know about the find so that they can get their fair share.
    Agreed. That’s law. My tax shall be on the FACE value of the Cache….unless it is sold for 100x more than that…..then the tax shall be levied on those earnings.

    ↑↑↑↑↑ ABOVE is ONE side of the coin ↑↑↑↑↑





    ↓↓↓↓↓ And BELOW is the OTHER side! ↓↓↓↓↓


    Quote Originally Posted by Lowbatts
    I have found several caches on public property, all appear to be the work of the same demented fool(s) who(m) ran higgity hog around town burying one cent coins in groups of 9-10 between the 1890's and the 1930's. I doubt they're looking at the paper to see if anyone recovered them.

    I'd feel the same way if I recovered 4,000,000 bucks in blue duffel bags wrapped in 100,000 dollar bundles with saran wrap last Friday near the east bank of the National Street Bridge.
    LOL! That’d be nice……but what does law say?




    -
    Gary in Pennsylvania
    -------------------------------
    “No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
    “Argue For Your Limitations……And Sure Enough, They’re Yours.” Messiah's Handbook
    “The unexamined life is not worth living.” Socrates 399BC

  5. #5
    GL
    GL is offline
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    I wouldn't tell anyone about 100 $5 gold coins.
    Pulltab Parson and wingmaster like this.

  6. #6
    us
    DFCA

    Dec 2006
    Kansas
    Minelab E-trac
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    if it's paper money, the police will believe it came from an illegal enterprise and confiscate it.
    If it's coins, first, did you discuss finds with the property owner? did you discuss dividing anything found?
    as far as survivors, that's up to the property owner. that's not your problem.
    I'm not sure, but the amount you're talking about is 500.00 face value. if you decide to keep it, you would have to pay tax on that amount. however, if you sold it for market value, your taxes would skyrocket.
    If you do find something like that, SHUT UP, you don't spread things like that around.
    find a reputable coin dealer, pay him for his services, that way it's a private (maybe) service

    Sniffer

  7. #7
    us
    Oct 2007
    Northern, OH
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    What about the law. If I found something like that it would be mine. I would tell no one aout it. If I needed money I would sell a couple off now and then. If someone would ask where you got them say your grandparents or parents left them to you....Matt
    wingmaster likes this.
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  8. #8
    Charter Member
    us
    I can dig it! "WP"

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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    finders keepers ........loosers ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finders_keepers

    To thine own self be true and let your conscience be your guide.

    It would be considered abandoned property most likely, as opposed to lost property.
    So ownership would pass to the finder. Laws that pertain to abandoned property would apply.
    ~Diggin The Adventure~
    Visit My Personal Forum Pages

  9. #9
    us
    Apr 2006
    northeast Wisconsin
    Fisher CZ3D, BH Discovery 3300
    883
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    From a practical standpoint, I think the best answer is:

    Quote Originally Posted by mlayers
    If I found something like that it would be mine. I would tell no one about it. If I needed money I would sell a couple off now and then. If someone would ask where you got them say your grandparents or parents left them to you....Matt
    From a LEGAL standpoint however, I can see a bunch of scenarios (most of which have been played out under similar circumstances in past 'findings')

    1) A quantity of coin buried together most likely wasn't 'lost' - it was put there deliberately. The fed ordered all gold coinage to be turned in for paper money back in the early 30's. Therefore, whoever buried it likely did so in an effort to circumvent that order. The fed could likely lay claim to it, and since the person who buried it isn't around anymore, I doubt they would have to compensate anyone for it.

    2) The heirs of the person who buried it could lay claim that it was put there by an ancestor and therefore rightfully belongs to his/her heirs.

    3) The coins are definately over 50 years old and could be covered by the Federal Antiquities Act (they become the property of the Fed)

    4) The landowner could lay claim to them.

    It actually makes you wish there were clear-cut laws to deal with amateurs like ourselves finding old stuff like the ones they have in England. (Man, did I actually SAY that ?) But realistically, the way I understand it, over there, you're free to hunt and if you find something of value, the gov't first determines if they want it for their "collections", if they do, they keep it and compensate you for it. If they don't, it's yours. Period, end of song. Over here, it's so danged convoluted that you can't predict where things will end up at all, and you can bet someone besides you will profit from your finds.

    Diggem'
    Yup. The end of a way of life. Too bad. It's a good way. Wagons forward! Yo!

  10. #10
    us
    Feb 2009
    Moscow-ish, Pa
    Minelab X-Terra 705 w/7.5&3kHz coils
    364

    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodyguy
    finders keepers ........loosers ?

    To thine own self be true and let your conscience be your guide.

    It would be considered abandoned property most likely, as opposed to lost property.
    So ownership would pass to the finder. Laws that pertain to abandoned property would apply.

    THANKS GOODGUY!!!!!!!

    See now:

    Treasure trove
    Main article: Treasure trove
    Treasure trove is property that consists of coins or currency hidden by the owner. To be considered treasure trove and not mislaid property, the property must have been deliberately hidden or concealed, and sufficiently long ago that the original owner can be considered dead or not discoverable. For example, under English law, 100 Roman coins found buried in a chest would be treasure trove; however, 100 Roman coins which were lost over time in a marketplace would not be treasure trove, as they were not deliberately hidden as a single hoard.

    Under American common law, treasure trove belongs to the finder unless the original owner reclaims. Some states have rejected the American common law and hold that treasure trove belongs to the owner of the property in which the treasure trove was found. These courts reason that the American common law rule encourages trespass.

    and HERE!!!!!!!!

    [edit] United States
    The law of treasure trove in the United States varies from state to state, but certain general conclusions may be drawn. To be treasure trove, an object must be of gold or silver. Paper money is also deemed to be treasure trove since it represents gold or silver. On the same reasoning, it might be imagined that coins and tokens in metals other than gold or silver are also included, but this has yet to be clearly established. The object must be concealed for long enough so it is unlikely that the true owner will reappear to claim it. The consensus appears to be that the object must be at least a few decades old.

    A majority of state courts, including those of Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Oregon and Wisconsin, have ruled that the finder of treasure trove is entitled to it. The theory is that the English monarch's claim to treasure trove was based on a statutory enactment which replaced the finder's original right. When this statute was not re-enacted in the United States after its independence, the right to treasure trove reverted to the finder.

    In Idaho and Tennessee courts have decided that treasure trove belongs to the owner of the place where it was found, the rationale being to avoid rewarding trespassers. In one Pennsylvania case, a lower court ruled that the common law did not vest treasure trove in the finder but in the sovereign, and awarded a find of US$92,800 cash to the state. However, this judgment was reversed by the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania on the basis that it had not yet been decided if the law of treasure trove was part of Pennsylvania law. The Supreme Court deliberately refrained from deciding the issue.

    Finds of money and lost property are dealt with by other states through legislation. These statutes usually require finders to report their finds to the police and transfer to their custody the objects. The police then advertise the finds to try and locate their true owner. If the objects remain unclaimed for a specified period of time, title in them vests in the finders. New Jersey vests buried or hidden property in the landowner, Indiana in the county, Vermont in the township, and Maine in the township and the finder equally. In Louisiana, French codes have been followed, so half of a found object goes to the finder and the other half to the landowner. The position in Puerto Rico, the laws of which are based on civil law, is similar.

    Finders who are trespassers generally lose all their rights to finds, unless the trespass is regarded as "technical or trivial".

    Where the finder is an employee, most cases hold that the find should be awarded to the employer if it has a heightened legal obligation to take care of its customers' property, otherwise it should go to the employee. A find occurring in a bank is generally awarded to the bank as the owner is likely to have been a bank customer and the bank has a fiduciary duty to try and reunite lost property with their owners. For similar reasons, common carriers are preferred to passengers and hotels to guests (but only where finds occur in guest rooms, not common areas). The view has been taken that such a rule is suitable for recently misplaced objects as it provides the best chance for them to be reunited with their owners. However, it effectively delivers title of old artifacts to landowners, since the older an object is, the less likely it is that the original depositor will return to claim it. The rule is therefore of little or no relevance to objects of archaeological value.

    Due to the potential for a conflict of interest, police officers and other persons working in law enforcement occupations, and armed forces are not entitled to finds in some states.

    By the Archaeological Resources Protection Act 1979, finds more than a hundred years old on government land belong to the government. There is analogous state legislation. Special rules also apply to grave goods from Indian burials discovered on Federal and tribal lands under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act enacted on 16 November 1990.
    All from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove
    Gary in Pennsylvania
    -------------------------------
    “No One Can Make You Feel Inferior Without Your Consent.” Eleanor Roosevelt
    “Argue For Your Limitations……And Sure Enough, They’re Yours.” Messiah's Handbook
    “The unexamined life is not worth living.” Socrates 399BC

  11. #11
    us
    Supreme Chancellor

    Oct 2005
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    What finds? I didn't find anything.

  12. #12

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    Tricky situation, if farmer Bob gives you permission to hit an old field where a stage stop once was, and you find a jar of gold coins, eh? Because "Farmer Bob" didn't know it was even there, so "what's he missing?" I guess it would boil down to what you told farmer Bob you would do with the finds. If you said "I'll give you everything I find", then yeah, you are morally obligated to reveal the jar of gold coins. But I find that a lot of sites like this, where some farmer or rancher gives me permission, the subject of finds distribution isn't even brought up. It's more like "have fun, knock yourself silly, lock the gate on your way out", etc... And he/they just assume you're innocently looking for buttons, and maybe an old coin or two if you're lucky. In a situation like that, I'd be tempted to just keep my mouth shut.

    Or how about this: if you find a jar of gold coins in the city park. If you took that in to city hall, and said "look what I found in the city park, must've been buried there back in the 1800s. Can I keep it?" What do you think they would say? Of COURSE they would say "you need to turn that in to the city" blah blah. So what's the fine line? How about a nice seated coin with a key-date and mint worth $500? Why not think you need to turn that in to the city too? So you can see that most of us would keep our mouth shut at a city park, right?
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  13. #13

    Mar 2005
    N.E.P.A.
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA
    But I find that a lot of sites like this, where some farmer or rancher gives me permission, the subject of finds distribution isn't even brought up. It's more like "have fun, knock yourself silly, lock the gate on your way out", etc... And he/they just assume you're innocently looking for buttons, and maybe an old coin or two if you're lucky. In a situation like that, I'd be tempted to just keep my mouth shut.
    My person favorite! The ideal situation.

  14. #14
    us
    Dec 2007
    West Virginia
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    Consititutional Law : You have the RIGHT to remain SILENT : ANYTHING you SAY can be used against you in a court of law. You also have the protection of the 5th ammendmant. Refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate you.


    JUST SHUT UP DAMN what you think is "morally" right.
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  15. #15
    us
    Feb 2007
    East Central Florida WP
    Whites XLT / M6
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    Re: Law regarding "Show me where you found it!"

    I have to agree with Goodyguy... Finders Keepers.

    Loose lips sink ships.

    Find? What Find?

    etc.... etc...

    Ray S
    Ray S ECenFL
    Wolf Pack Member

 

 
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