Archaeology vs Metal Detecting

[brokenarrow]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

I can agree with this, but metal detecting guidelines first need to be uniformed across all of the states. I see no reason why many sites that are now closed depending on what state you live in can not be opened and permits issued. That would earn revenue for those states. Then I see no reason why archeology and metal detecting cannot form some kind of bridge to allow the two benefit. As always, even in England you will have the law breakers and people who will on both sides take advantage of it, but as a whole it would go along way to preserve our nations history.

well said...i agree

 

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[RON (PA)]

It would be a great idea to hunt together with archaeologists. We could both learn a lot from each other and can contribute to the finds from the site. The only problem is that the archaelogists have an ego that needs adjusting.

 

[Dan Hughes]

I think we need a good working definition of archeological treasures, and I don't think randomly-dropped coins should be in the same category as Indian burial grounds.

 

[Drache]

I think we need a good working definition of archeological treasures, and I don't think randomly-dropped coins should be in the same category as Indian burial grounds.

This can be difficult as it all depends on WHERE items are found. A simple coin found in a ghost town can means lots depending on where it was found.

 

[Dan Hughes]

This can be difficult as it all depends on WHERE items are found. A simple coin found in a ghost town can means lots depending on where it was found.

Agreed. But the archaeological value of the find is the knowledge of the location of the find, not the possession of the find.

That is, if the archaeologist knows that an 1842 dime was found six inches deep at a particular spot, he does not need to have that dime in his hand to further his mapping of the area.

 

[Drache]

This can be difficult as it all depends on WHERE items are found. A simple coin found in a ghost town can means lots depending on where it was found.

Agreed. But the archaeological value of the find is the knowledge of the location of the find, not the possession of the find.

That is, if the archaeologist knows that an 1842 dime was found six inches deep at a particular spot, he does not need to have that dime in his hand to further his mapping of the area.

Which is sort of correct although first off how is the archie supposed to know exactly where that item is? Sure the MD can tell him after the fact but that is allot different than having a proper excavation from the site. I've personally witnessed a couple "treasure hunters" breaking old bottles just to try and dig down to something their metal detector picked up.

Now sure, some coins can be allot different than someone finding something with someone's name engraved onto it.

But our museum here uses those artifacts to show people what the way of life was like to visitors. Like I said before, what would museums and history be like if everyone just kept what they found to themselves.

 

[Dan Hughes]

Sure the MD can tell him after the fact but that is allot different than having a proper excavation from the site.

But will a proper excavation ever be done?

How many places are there where archaeological items will never be found in a formal excavation, simply because there are too many sites and not enough archaeologists?

I'm not talking about ghost towns so much as public parks.

 

[Drache]

Sure the MD can tell him after the fact but that is allot different than having a proper excavation from the site.

But will a proper excavation ever be done?

How many places are there where archaeological items will never be found in a formal excavation, simply because there are too many sites and not enough archaeologists?

I'm not talking about ghost towns so much as public parks.

Public parks or areas that literally the only way to get to them is skydive into ARE different. There is no cut and dry issue on this. MD'ers have their valuable place and so do archies.

 

[Goodyguy]

Does any museum really need every nickle and dime or bottle, lost in an area, to have on display for people to get an idea of how a culture once existed?

These are historical items not prehistorical. All 1800's gold mining ghost towns have similar histories.
They came, they mined, the ore ran out, people moved on, the town became deserted, they left worthless and broken possessions and trash when they moved on, It was junk to them but cool to us, So lets put it in a museum and show everybody. This may sound insensitive but that's what it amounts to.

Don't get me wrong I love museums and I love looking at the displays of yesteryear. But if you want to build a museum then get out and collect the artifacts and take donations of artifacts just like every other museum in the world.

Just make sure you get there before the treasure hunters do, that's all.

Once a town is placed on the historical site list then "NO TREASURE HUNTING IS ALLOWED" Until then sorry it's up for grabs........Is that ethical? ..........To a treasure hunter it is. Treasure hunters are not all heartless. I know plenty who would donate finds to a museum if asked.

But we have to find our treasure somewhere and whatever treasure we do find, someone else thinks it has their name on it! I say get your own treasure and leave ours alone.

Please none of this was meant to be taken personally and only as an observation nothing else. I would be happy to help find artifacts for any museum if asked.

 

[gamiller]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

I used to be a professional archaeologist but left the field about 5 years ago due to the lack of money and stability job wise. I trained here stateside as well as overseas in London and have heard the full gambit. I have always been pretty openminded, but there are many archaeologists who do feel only they should be allowed to get what's in the ground. I obviously don't think people should be detecting on national battlefield parks and places of the like just like most people on here, but I do feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with casual detecting as I try to do it myself.

I think one of the biggest difficulties stateside is the fact that our history is not as long as europe and other places, so the archaeologists here want domain over whatever they can get. Prehistoric Native Americans only had cold hammered copper items, and since they are so rare, you can be assured there is a 99% chance you will never come across anything prehistoric here with a detector...so it will typically only be Spanish occupation up. I do not think there is anything wrong pulling an 18th century coin from the ground or the odd historic piece. Any place humans have lived is a literal trash pit, and that is basically what archaeologist excavate...trash. The only time I ever really cringe is the rare occasion that someone comes across an area I do feel has archaeological merit to be excavated and data retrieved that may have some historical context. Those are pretty obvious areas. When you dig down and are coming across intact planked walkways from the Civil War, those are times I feel an excavation are warranted for example. I remember seeing a video of that happening on youtube and they kept saying, "we are saving history." Like I said before, I am very open minded, but I didn't buy that argument that time. Other than the rare instances like that and of course burials, whether they are historic or prehistoric Native Americans, I say go for it.


I fully buy the argument that archaeologists just gather data and store away artifacts never to see the light of day again. I've seen that happen for years, from excavations I have conducted as well as archives in various historic resource departments. You would be amazed at the millions of artifacts in plastic or paper bags tucked away on a shelf in a bankers box. I cannot tell you how many arguments me and my old professor used to get in when it came to "treasure hunting" and archaeology. Archaeologists though are just like anyone else. You may run across 10 that will spit on you, but also run across another ten that are much more understanding. I will say though, state archaeologists tend to be the worst of the bunch in general. They tend to be like any other state employee, haha. No offense to any state workers out there! haha. There are so many different aspects to this never ending push and pull situation between archaeologists and detectorists, that I could go on forever. I just wanted everyone to know that there are some regular archaeologists out there though. I think the biggest problem that metal detectorists will have is fighting off the stigma that the detectorists in the 60's and 70's created when they had free reign to dig wherever they wanted and plenty of battlefields and burials were dug up. The code of ethics in the past couple decades have changed everything, but that stigma from years ago still sticks unfortunately. I say just be considerate when you dig and you can't go wrong.

Oh, and deep down, every archaeologist wants to be a treasure hunter. Don't let them tell you otherwise!

A very important quote and much of what was said has been said to me before by others( though not as well)

 

[Likely Guy]

Hey Goodyguy,

I agree with you on many points that you brought forward.

Quote: "Does any museum really need every nickle and dime or bottle, lost in an area, to have on display for people to get an idea of how a culture once existed?"

No, but having a few survivng examples is important of course.

Quote: "All 1800's gold mining ghost towns have similar histories. They came, they mined, the ore ran out, people moved on, the town became deserted..."

The ghost town that Drache and I refer to was deserted by the white miners around 1865 and the Chinese moved in, making it their home base for about 30 years. While most towns had a 'China town', Quesnel Forks was a 'Chinese town'. For a while the only white residents were the bridge owner, the local Government Agent and his small family. Having every bit of Chinese 'junk' found is key to determining the history of the place.

Quote: "But we have to find our treasure somewhere and whatever treasure we do find someone else thinks it has their name on it! I say get your own treasure and leave ours alone."

We're a small community of 250 people over an hours drive from anywhere and we feel the same. IE: "...get your own treasure and leave ours alone." (Hillbilly seige mentality if you will, but you have to understand where we're coming from.)

Don't mistake me Goodyguy. Any thoughts on this subject I welcome and like I said you raise many valuable points. You I think, we'd welcome to come here and dig.

 

[Drache]

Does any museum really need every nickle and dime or bottle, lost in an area, to have on display for people to get an idea of how a culture once existed?

These are historical items not prehistorical. All 1800's gold mining ghost towns have similar histories.
They came, they mined, the ore ran out, people moved on, the town became deserted, they left worthless and broken possessions and trash when they moved on, It was junk to them but cool to us, So lets put it in a museum and show everybody. This may sound insensitive but that's what it amounts to.

Don't get me wrong I love museums and I love looking at the displays of yesteryear. But if you want to build a museum then get out and collect the artifacts and take donations of artifacts just like every other museum in the world.

Just make sure you get there before the treasure hunters do, that's all.

Once a town is placed on the historical site list then "NO TREASURE HUNTING IS ALLOWED" Until then sorry it's up for grabs........Is that ethical? ..........To a treasure hunter it is. Treasure hunters are not all heartless. I know plenty who would donate finds to a museum if asked.

But we have to find our treasure somewhere and whatever treasure we do find someone else thinks it has their name on it! I say get your own treasure and leave ours alone.

Please none of this was meant to be taken personally only as an observation nothing else. I would be happy to help find artifacts for any museum if asked.

It might be different in the US where you have a hundred to two hundred more years of history than my Province does. BC became a British Colony in 1858 and really the first settlement was Fort St John in 1794 if I'm not mistaken.

But yes EVERY bottle and coin isn't needed but sadly more than that get's picked up.

 

[MD Dog]

I can see the Archies gettin mad about treasure hunters doing the bad deed while diggin into an indian mound or digging into a cave or something. But realistically I don't believe it is the Archeologists complaints that are damaging our hobby. It is joe shmoe who complains about some park lawn thats been pot holed by an amateur with a wally world special. If anyone was really serious about stepping up and solving the issue the place to start is the inexpensive Metal detector sold to just anyone with a DVD or small book that briefly mentions our"Code Of Ethics" What a joke like most people even read that section. The truth is way too many kids get these cheap detectors and run out to dig holes with every beep. The only thing they stop to learn from the books are the first places to learn this hobby like schools, parks, beaches and other public spaces. Who is doing the complaining ? The people who manage and work in these public spaces, like park grounds keepers. Also the public is poorly informed and see one National Geographic episode that mentions grave robbers and equates them to treasure hunters and wham this person is all of a sudden Mr Do gooder who will report the evil treasure hunter to the cops for diggin treasure at the local playground.

Seriously I think the hype about the discord between Archeologists and your average MDer is minimal at best as they are human beings with good common sense just like the average people who metal detect, in fact I'd bet most of them would fit right in here since we all share the same interests. I doubt the average Archie would get all that bent at most of us hunting for coins and jewelery at schools and parks or beaches. As for the people who are out there hunting for CW stuff or whatever, yes I think they should at least be notified in some way of what is found and where. Who knows if it could actually be significant that you found that type of Belt Buckle at that
location ? The Archie would know better than any amateur. What we should do is work to improve their image of us by opening up our lines of communication between us since they are just like the average Joe in their understanding of who we are and what we actually do. I for one would have no problem working with and even for an archeologists and helping them out in any way I could. I bet that over time I'd win them over to my side and they'd do the same thing for me.

As for John Q public, that's actually a much tougher fix. But if they could see us as helpers of the archeologists instead of antagonists, it would go along way towards fixing our image in their eyes as well.

 

[MD Dog]

I had to come back and post a separate point of view I have on this subject which takes an unusual tack but I really have no idea if it would work or if it might actually make it worse for all of us.

The idea was to fight fire with fire. We get bad press but very little good press. It is the off hand comment from Archies that causes our bad image that and amateur behavior. So if we could counter this with good comments and good acts from seasoned experts then John Q Public might see us in a different light. We already see Kristin Gumm on the travel channel doing some good PR for us. Also I think we need more publicity then just that. We need to have access to the media just as much as those who bad mouth us. In other words if we could make our hobby as popular as possible then their might be a bigger outcry whenever a politico tries to legislate us out of some public space. The trade off would be more competition, but hey, I'm not afraid of a little competition how about you ?

 

[Goodyguy]

MD Dog, you make a good point, after all we do outnumber the Archie's, I don't know if it is 1000 to 1 or just what, but a significant number for sure. That to a politician equals a lot of votes. However the archies have way more power and clout when it comes to policy making than we will ever hope to have. and that makes our numbers seem very insignificant indeed.

Archies have enormous power at the state level. There is even a National Association of State Archaeologists. State Archaeologists can answer questions regarding laws, procedures, current research, educational programs, and other aspects of archaeology for each state and possession.

The site below provides a directory of State Archaeologists for the United States and its possessions.
http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/nasa/

This only scratches the surface of their power on policy. I Believe the recent closings of land to metal detecting is based on policy set by the state archaeologist. And its happening all over the country at an alarming rate.

John Hamilton who was instrumental in closing some park land to md'ers in Texas, recently moved to Louisville Kentucky. Now the parks in Louisville Kentucky have policy against metal detecting.

Coincidence or design. You be the judge.

 

[MD Dog]

my point Goodyguy is that it is the busybody down the street Who's our problem, not the average Archaeologist. Stop amateurs from digging pot holes in parks and school grounds and we have something.

 

[rjw4law]

As well mentioned in the prior posts, Are people who just don't care, they dig and leave holes, and trash. Thats the bottom line for many areas posting no metal detectors.

 

[Goodyguy]

MD Dog I have no way of knowing how many average Archaeologists you have polled on this subject.
But I can tell you that the ones I know and have spoken with over the last few years do not have any love for anyone who takes objects from under the turf no mater what that object is. To them any object is an artifact, even a coin dropped today, they want to be dug in it's context 100 years from now by a future archie.

As I stated in my first post on this subject, I am a student of Archaeology and a member of a local Archaeology club. consequently I have met many Archaeologists both in the field and in club meetings. Therefore I can assure you that they are very serious when it comes to taking anything from the ground that is not done in a professional manor and in accordance with strict guidelines.

However, MD Dog I also agree with you, that detectorists who leave holes unfilled and citizens who ask permission to hunt public areas when none is needed, coupled with complaints to authorities from disgruntled onlookers, have called attention to what we are doing.

Consequently the first thing the authorities do is check for policies that forbid the practice of digging and retrieving objects on public land. Guess where that leads?.........Straight to the antiquities act and the interpretation of it by the state Archaeologist. Next thing you know the parks are closed to metal detecting.

 

[itmaiden]

Okay, Here's the deal. The archie can record and photograph the find, but I get to keep it. There!, both sides are satisfied, history is "preserved" for whatever use it is in our sinful society, and then I get to add the find to my Personal collection or sell it for profit.

I love archaeology, however, I am mad as heck when they hide all that stuff for decades from the public which doesn't give me the opportunity to learn from it, or to know some historical fact. Just not too long ago, I got excited about some "new" archie finds to only learn they had dug the stuff up about 50 years ago already.

And archies steal stuff all the time, so cut the "historic preservation" story. Look how much it costs the universities and tax payers to store all that stuff in dusty closets, drawers and rooms for all those years ?

And how many people actually benefit ?

Now personally I could benefit just fine by finding a good cache of gold. How about you ?

Oh and how about those dead sea scrolls...kept from many of us for all those years. How does anything benefit the education of anyone but archies when it is kept out of the public eye. Now a good find is going to get a prime photo right here on treasurenet on the pubilc internet and many can benefit, including the finder.

itmaiden

 

[Drache]

Okay, Here's the deal. The archie can record and photograph the find, but I get to keep it. There!, both sides are satisfied, history is "preserved" for whatever use it is in our sinful society, and then I get to add the find to my Personal collection or sell it for profit.

I love archaeology, however, I am mad as heck when they hide all that stuff for decades from the public which doesn't give me the opportunity to learn from it, or to know some historical fact. Just not too long ago, I got excited about some "new" archie finds to only learn they had dug the stuff up about 50 years ago already.

And archies steal stuff all the time, so cut the "historic preservation" story. Look how much it costs the universities and tax payers to store all that stuff in dusty closets, drawers and rooms for all those years ?

And how many people actually benefit ?

Now personally I could benefit just fine by finding a good cache of gold. How about you ?

Oh and how about those dead sea scrolls...kept from many of us for all those years. How does anything benefit the education of anyone but archies when it is kept out of the public eye. Now a good find is going to get a prime photo right here on treasurenet on the pubilc internet and many can benefit, including the finder.

itmaiden

Wow you sure lump all the archies into one bowl....

Stealing? I'd sure think you'd do pretty bad trying to accuse me, my family, or friends of stealing the artifacts.

And just so you know, 99% of the items found were in the museum in very short order! I know since I've helped put a couple of those items into that museum.

It's also IRONIC that you yourself talk about archies hiding their finds away for years before they are released to museums and yet you yourself want to horde any item you find or sell it for profit to someone else to hide. So what's the difference?