Question about MDing at Schools

[jb7487]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

Tom, thanks for the post. You've made some good points but also some errors in your interpretations of what I've said. We've had this discussion before and your feelings on asking for permission to hunt public land (parks in particular) are very clear to me. Mine should also be clear so I don't see the need to go through this discussion again.

It should be clear to all that "permission" is a touchy subject here and that there are a lot of differing opinions. I tried to capture some of those opinions in my list of 7 "beliefs". I probably missed a few and my intention was only to give the OP an idea of how complex the subject of permission has become.

 

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[thrillathahunt]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

Hey jb7487,

Let me ask you. Do you think you should ask permission to walk your dogs at a public school? Do you think you should ask to fly a kite there? Should you ask to swing on the swings on a saturday afternoon?

Should you ask to build a sand castle in the sand lot? People (the public) use these school facilities for all kinds of things....do THEY ask for permission?

 

[jb7487]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

thrillathahunt, Obviously you didn't read my thoughts on the subject up higher in this thread. I do not ask for permission to hunt school property.

But I will still answer your question:

Do you think you should ask permission to walk your dogs at a public school? Do you think you should ask to fly a kite there? Should you ask to swing on the swings on a saturday afternoon? Should you ask to build a sand castle in the sand lot? People (the public) use these school facilities for all kinds of things....do THEY ask for permission?

Each person needs to answer those questions for themselves. Technically, all of those people are taking a risk and are trespassing. Just because everyone is doing something doesn't mean there is no risk of getting in trouble (but you knew that already). But most people assume that the school isn't going to press charges for doing things that are not destructive. And some people are mistakenly of the opinion that it is their God given right to use school property because they pay taxes. I really don't know what to say to those people.

However, metal detecting is not seen in the same light as those other things you posted about. So there is a greater risk from metal detecting than there is from swinging on swings. I could turn the table on you and ask "Do you think you should ask permission to erect a statue at a public school? Do you think you should ask permission to hold a party with 1000 people there? Dig a giant hole? Paint the playground equipment pink? Raise chickens? Dispose of your yard waste? And the list goes on and on. The point being that for some activities you should probably get permission and for others it is probably ok to just go ahead and do it. Metal detecting is in a gray area. So you are trying to compare apples to oranges with your line of logic.

As I've said already, I don't ask at schools. But I also take my kids with me and try to minimize confrontations by going in off times (Sunday nights appear to be best). In general I think that it would be too much of a hassle for the schools to press charges unless I am truly being destructive. So I think I can live with the level of risk that I have assessed to the situation. Other people may not agree. And it also depends on the history of the school, the area, and the openness of the school to let people use facilities. Some schools actively run people off of the property for swinging on swings and walking their dogs. So just be careful and play it by ear.

 

[thrillathahunt]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

I disagree. I think there is a greater risk to the school from people walking their dogs (poop)...swinging (getting hurt) or skateboarding.

With your logic anyone who enters school property for any reason after hours is trespassing without permission.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

"all of those people are taking a risk and are trespassing" Well, now we're into another area, off-to-the-side of the question: Yes, some schools have those signs "school closed after hours. Non-students report to office. Permission to pass revokable", or other such wording. These type signs became prevalent in the 1980s and '90s as I recall (bigger cities first, smaller cities later). I think they were born out of litigical nonsense (someone falling off a slide and suing the city). Also maybe d/t teens 4-wheeling on the lawn after-hours, or perverts or whatever. The sign becomes a "tool" to use, where they can boot you. Or if you fall and try to sue, they can say "didn't you read the sign?" etc...

But in the cities around me, which all have those fences and signs, they .... nonetheless, have a gate at each school propped open, and the school yards are routinely used, after hours, by joggers, kids playing soccer, hoops, or whatever. But let's assume, for sake of question, that there is no such sign or fence. Ie.: let's place ourselves back in the old days (and, in effect, how most still are today): that is, that they are not off-limits to public casual use after hours and on weekends. If that is our premise, then "trespassing in general" is not the issue.

I agree with you jb4787, that someone might take this "help yourself" stance, and try to draw the analogy like you do: "Oh, then I guess you ALSO think you have the right to just erect a statue, dump your garbage, paint the swings pink, etc... too, just because it's public?" But once again, this just continues to pre-assume that something is inherently evil or wrong with our hobby. Yes, I see an inherent evil ("crossing the line"), with the dumping trash, erecting statues, painting things, etc.... I (and the "75%") DON'T see anything wrong with metal detecting. If I/we are not doing any harm, not leaving any trace, then I consider myself no more harmful or erroneous than the soccer player, for example.

Who's to say what that fine line is, where you cross from "casual" (frisbee, sand-castles, etc...) to destructive (erecting statues, painting the equipment, etc...) is up for debate I suppose. I just know that if we all look at ourselves in this light ("oh no! I better ask"), then you are already answering the question for yourself (that it is somehow across that fine-line), before you've even started, by the mere fact that you think you need to ask. Therefore, I don't consider it a "grey area". I consider it harmless. Sure, isolated incidents exist of parks and schools on the city level who boot people (or maybe even have a written rule). But once again, I say these are rare exceptions. The vast majority probably wouldn't even notice you, or give it a second thought (unless you were being a nuisance). It's the same with nose-picking: If I/you just do it discreetly, no one probably notices. But if you ask them "can I pick my nose?", what do you think they will say?

Here's an analogy to the psychology: There is a hobby called "slack-lining", that is gaining popularity amongst kids nowadays: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacklining There was an article in our local paper a few years ago, that the park's dept. had made a rule dis-allowing this practice in parks here. The reason? apparently they felt that the ropes, tied around the bases of trees, could leave little grooves or marks etched in the bark. The article went on to say that some parents and kids were trying to get this over-ruled, or get some section of a park "set aside" for it, etc... But here's where it gets interesting: apparently the hobby had gone on for YEARS, and no one cared or gave it thought. But I guess that one "concerned mother", upon hearing her young son explain what he and his buddies were going to do, decided she better call the park's dept. and "make sure it's alright". Well I guess this was "news to those in the park's dept.", and was something that had never been addressed. So one thing led to another, and the answer was passed down to the rank and file: "no slacklining". Do you get it?

 

[jb7487]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

I disagree. I think there is a greater risk to the school from people walking their dogs (poop)...swinging (getting hurt) or skateboarding.

You are talking about different types of risk. Risk of property destruction vs. risk of being sued. Both are important but could result in different levels of legal activity based on who you encounter. For example, when detecting, you are not typically confronted by admistrators (but you could be). Instead, you are more likely to be approached by a groundskeeper or janitor. These people don't care about liability and being sued. They are more concerned that you are digging holes and messing up the place. And for what it's worth we aren't disagreeing here. I never said that I think swinging on swings is lower risk. I just said that metal detecting is often perceived as being more destructive. It has a stigma associated with it that is unfair in my opinion. But that is reality and we have to live with it. What we think doesn't really matter now does it?

With your logic anyone who enters school property for any reason after hours is trespassing without permission.

That isn't just my logic, my understanding is that it is the law. This is where our major disconnect seems to be. You assume that anyone can go on any public property at any time. This is not the case. You usually can't go to a public park after dark. I can't walk into the principal's personal office anytime I want to. And if the school has rules against it, I can't use the swings. Maybe you should check with your local police department to be sure you understand the law. If I'm wrong then please enlighten me. Note however that the "after hours" and "any reason" aspects of your statement are important. If I have a legitimate reason to be there (there is a school function that my kids are invited to) then it probably isn't trespassing. Also note that there is a big difference between "breaking the law" and being prosecuted. Just because schools don't prosecute people who swing on the swings doesn't mean that they aren't technically breaking the law and could potentially be prosecuted if the school deemed that they were being destructive.

We obviously don't see eye to eye on this issue. Your brand of logic is actually quite common. And following it will probably not lead you into any trouble. But if push ever does come to shove I wouldn't expect that a judge will buy into it. You are not entitled to anything when it comes to public property. The school is free to say that walking dogs is fine but metal detecting is not. And there is nothing you can do about it. I'm not saying that you will run into these types of rules often. But you could. So be prepared. As I've said about 5 times now, I don't ask for permission to hunt school grounds. But I'm also very cautious and don't at any time assume that I am entitled to do whatever I want to just because the school doesn't seem to mind other people using the property. The school can pick and choose what it wants to enforce. And if someone else has been causing trouble, I could end up being the recipient of the school's wrath. That's a risk that I am willing to take at this point.

 

[treasurehound]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

About two months ago I was hunting a field next to a school when I sensed something or someone behind me. A county sheriff's cruiser was driving in the field up to me. When he got beside me he said "Oh I see what you are doing now". He was driving nearby and saw someone in the field and didn't know what or who it was. I said I thought it was ok to hunt the school and he said no problem. He was very nice and was just checking on what he saw. We talked about the history of the school and even gave me some areas to check out. I have never had a problem hunting schools and love to hunt the older ones. As far as private property I would never hunt unless I had the owners permission. I know everybody has their own opinion and they all sound good but I feel better knowing I have the owners ok. The way I see it if you have permission and you find stuff the owner might tell a few friends and give you some other sites to hunt. On the other hand if you hunt without permission and are caught the land owner will tell everybody he knows and it will make it hard for anybody to get permission to hunt.

 

[jb7487]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

But once again, this just continues to pre-assume that something is inherently evil or wrong with our hobby.

The whole problem with this logic is that the whole concept of "evil" is in the eye of the beholder. Evil is not equal to illegal. I totally agree with you that most of the time, there is nothing inherently evil or wrong with our hobby (unless I'm robbing graves or something similar). But you are preaching to the choir. And the whole idea that by asking I'm admitting some sort of guilt is really just fear of what we already know to be true. We already KNOW that metal detecting on school grounds is technically illegal (if you don't then you are either in denial or you don't understand the law). Even in using the swings I KNOW that I could get in trouble and that I am trespassing. Does asking to use the swings constitute and admission of guilt? Well, then I guess it does. Does not knowing enough about the law to understand that I SHOULD ask to use the swings make using the swings any less illegal? No it does not. But whether or not WE think it is illegal or wrong is really not the issue here now is it? So sure, if you want to say that asking is admitting that we know that we are not legally allowed to do it then I guess I have to agree (notice I didn't say anything about being "evil" as that is a whole different can of worms).

But here's where it gets interesting: apparently the hobby had gone on for YEARS, and no one cared or gave it thought.

But can't I say that about 90+% of the laws in the world? For most laws these things have been going on for years until someone finally decided to take the time to do something about it. That doesn't make them any less dangerous. Just because someone has been doing something for years doesn't give them the right to continue doing it in light of new evidence.

Do you get it?

I've always "gotten it". That's why I didn't want to go over this yet again with you. Your fear is that simply by asking you raise the possibility of someone thinking about it and saying no. You also raise the possibility of someone inacting specific legislation to ban it. And I can see why you believe that because it is in general a legitimate fear. You've even pointed out cases where it has happened. But I still say that those are edge cases and not the norm. Most cities really don't want to take the time to pass and enforce laws unless someone is really causing trouble. It takes too much energy. I would bet that in the cases you've found where this did happen it took way more than someone simply "asking" if they could metal detect to get those laws passed. I don't know the details and really don't care to know. Maybe you could go pull up the details and show us how "simply asking" turned into specific legislation.

Let's also not forget that just because someone says no doesn't mean that you can't just ignore that advice and do it anyway as if you never even asked. That's your perogative and you can take that risk if you so desire.

As I said before we've done this already many times and I really don't want to go through it all again. We've both made our positions clear. I was chastised a couple of weeks ago for having the audacity to simply ask two of my local parks and recs department if it was ok to metal detect (even though they both said it was ok). There are people out here who are genuinely scared that the simple process of asking can ruin it for everyone. I think that those people are blowing the risk of this way out of proportion. You apparently feel otherwise. That's your perogative. Again, we can agree to disagree and move on.

 

[deepskyal]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

Maybe your laws are different where you live. Non-destructive use of public property here, including schools, is allowed. It is not trespassing.
A few parks have signs posted to limit hours of use...mostly State Parks...but not all of them. Local parks here, you can walk them at any hour.

Also, here in Pa., certain places have signs explicitly stating "No Metal Detecting".

The only grey area I see is what officials use to define "Non-destructive" You dig a hole in the grass....some might say it's destructive, I say it is not. When I fill my hole, no one's the wiser....grass continues to grow.

I'm one of those old timers that do believe it is my god given right to detect public lands that I pay taxes for. The theory is..."Life, Liberty and Persuit of Happiness." If you make me pay taxes for something, then I have a right to use it. I'm talking parks here, I'm not being absurd with wanting military protection of my home or asking them to fight a personal war.

And a little known fact here...don't know what it's like in other areas, but if I need use of the wood shop in my local school, then they MUST let me have access. At least when school is in session. Generally, that comes down to letting the kids have a project with your wood...but none-the-less, it reflects the attitude of why my tax dollars give me certain rights.

Like Tom said...before the internet, we never gave it a second thought about detecting parks, schools, abandoned homesites, etc. And franky, no one gave a hoot if we did.

You're right...I'm a stubborn sob.

If they can post signs limiting activities in parks, and they don't want me metal detecting it, then that should be included in the sign.
If they can post No metal detecting signs in one place off limits, then they can place them everywhere they want off limits.

But obviously, metal detecting, at least around me and even areas quite a distance away, is not worthy enough of an issue for our elected officials to worry about. So why should I?

I'm not going to rock the boat. I'm not attempting to fix something that isn't broke. My way of detecting has been the same for 25 years....why would I change it now? Just because some official decides to take an easy, cheap way of outlawing something by posting it to their website, I won't let them hold me responsible for their shortcommings.
If you don't want me somewhere, No Trespassings signs can be bought for a dollar.....put one up. Most parks I've seen with their rules posted have a couple signs at entrances. If they change the rules...how expensive for them would that be to replace the signs? They change the current elected officials signs every time a new one is put in office at the park entrances of some county parks. I'd think they could change the rules sign just as easy.

Like I said before, just use common sense in this hobby.

If you do a school, do it when it won't interfere with school activities or classes or be a distraction to the kids. If you detect a park, don't go to a busy pavillion with people or the middle of a ballfield while a game is going on. Stay out of the way of maintainence workers cutting grass. Obey signs!
These are the only rules I need.

And just one point on the internet from my own personal experience.
I detected Pennsylvania State Gamelands for years without giving it a second thought. Never, ever had anyone tell me I couldn't. I always looked at those big, gigantic signs that said "Welcome to Pennsylvania State Gamelands, enjoy your visit." There were a series of rules listed on that gigantic sign...not one in reference to metal detecting. These are billboard size signs, not some little thing.

Well....I find this forum a while ago and guess what? Someone post's a link to the state website and I see the rules involving metal detecting state gamelands. Now let me ask you......without defined borders within the millions of acres of land, how am I to know if I'm on gamelands or not? And why would they recently post it to the internet and not have it on their signs?
The only thing I can possibly think of, in this instance, is someone must have brought up the issue for them to even have to consider it. Millions of acres of nothing but woods, off limits....because someone, somewhere, made it an issue. Someone must have asked somebody, something.

And technically, my tax dollars do NOT support them.

If I hadn't read it on the internet, I'd be none-the -wiser. I'd still be detecting it...til finally someone told me in person.

Metal detecting is a hobby...no different from fishing or kite flying. I read the rules at the lake for special regulations for fishing and happily fly a kite. I don't see any sign for metal detecting so.....

Al

 

[JHArizona]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

I always ask permission regardless of public or private property. I find it best practice. Let me explain....

Public Lands, Parks, schools, beaches, etc. Always get permission from someone. Even if I see others are using the land for metal detecting. If I assume it is OK because someone else was doing it, now there is a chance 2 people can get in trouble due to the monkey see-monkey do approach...

Some BLM Land that is normally public land, is actually Federal Mineral and Historical Rights. Not always posted, But can still be arrested for taking anything off the property. Can be busted for having a shovel, a metal detector, or even a magnet on a stick. Leads to jail time, huge fines, and loss of vehicle and equipment.....Awful lot to lose by mistaking for an open access public land.

As mentioned earlier in the post "Is a good way to get shot". Here in AZ if someone is on your property and un-invited, you have the right to protect yourself and property. If I seen a trespasser on my land that I suspect is up to no good, I might just take a shot at them....

Plenty of situations to think about. If you use your imagination and figure on the absolute worst that could happen by not having permission, you will find it is always better to have the permission from someone. Permission gives you a leg to stand on if the bad situation were to arise....

By asking permission for both public or private lands, It also makes you look more responsible. This is appreciated by anyone really. A private land owner now knows you are not trespassing. They get a sense for the honesty of the character searching the property and will be more trusting of you since you asked permission. It shows you are respectful of other peoples properties and with that kind of self presentation it also increases your odds of getting that desired permission....

Same goes for the public land. Shows respect for the rules and the property. Just leave the land as you found it, and follow suit with your intial presentation by asking permission. Fill in holes, leave no trash, etc etc. If granted with permission and are respectful, odds are you will be welcome back at a later time as well...

The worst that can happen is the permission is denied. By having the Pessimistically Optimistic Approach to begin with....planning for the worst that could happen without permission, and actually asking permission will give you the ultimate answer without the troubles. By asking permission, any of these thoughts or worries will be eliminated when and if the permission is granted.

I hope you can follow that.....not sure I am too good at explaining but the moral of the story is, Asking permission is responsible and respectable thing to do.

 

[lastleg]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

JHArizona:

Great post. My first prospecting trip to Prescott my buddy and I camped
on Forest Service governed land. Before going he called the head Rangerette
make sure it was OK for us to park next to Lynx Creek for a week. She was so
friendly. Well we arrived, set up camp and went to panning. Shortly after, one
of her storm troopers showed up and began reading us the riot act.
We were monitored the whole time we spent by the creek. They even sent an
Agent from Flagstaff to camp next to us . We told him our background and what
our intentions were and invited him to pan with us the next day.
This guy figured out real quick we were no threat to the invironment around us
and told us his occupation. Next morning he was gone.
After that first trip we decided to play it safe and camped on GPAA/Stanton land.
If you want to escape civilization for a week or so I highly recommend it.
From the time I started detecting I have always repaired my diggings. It's the
right thing to do and in Arizona you might get lead poisoning for acting the fool.

 

[mick56]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

I have detected probably every school within 20 or 30 miles of where I live. Never had any run ins with anybody. Only go evenings, weekends, or in the summer when nobody is around.

I was md'ing a soccer field, some kids came to practice, so I left. I don't draw any attention to myself, or cause any problems.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

JH Arizona: Can you please cite for us, incidents of anyone being "arrested, busted, jail time, huge fines, loss of vehicle and equipment, and shot" for detecting a non posted, non-historical-monument type, regular city park?

I'm just curious. I'm sure you will have examples, as you certainly had many in mind when you made these statements, right? I'm just at a loss to think of any. Can you please enlighten me?

 

[TimC]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

I've detected at many public places. Waukesha, WI has a no-fee form for detecting on anypublic areas (including PUBLIC schools) in the county. I guess it reminds the MD's of the need to respect the property.

TimC

 

[JHArizona]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

Tom_in_CA - I appologize for taking so long to get back to you. I just now seeing your question, however yes I can. Toward Meadview Arizona in the Gold Basin Area near the Placer deposits is a section of land that hasn't been marked for some time that is a federal mining claim. A woman was busted there last year, and her whole vacation was ruined. It is due to the fact that there is now a small gold rush starting, and the area is being patrolled heavily because some mines in the area are active once again. She was locked up, her vehical was taken, and she had quite the bail and some hefty fines.

Also several sections of land up toward the lake mead area where some incidences have occurred. Lake mead Recreation Area is not adequately marked, nor fenced for some of the more rural back way sections. Park Rangers love to patrol and catch people out there. I dont want to give any names, for I am not sure what rights I have to do so, but I would assume if you look hard enough, you could find it in the county records.

Anyway, The intention of the post was not to point fingers at those who have been busted, but to inform others...YES it can, and it DOES happen. Asking permission to search is the responsible thing to do.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

JH, thanx for the examples. As I asked that question, I had a feeling that somewhere, somehow, someone might have an example. I mean, afterall: so TOO is a motorist "roughed up" now and then, by an overzealous cop, for a simple tail light infraction. Does that stop you/us from driving? Also notice that you did not give examples of non-posted, non-historic regular CITY parks. You posted federal examples (yes, Lake Mead is NPS governed). So I still struggle to find examples of all these supposed horror stories. And yes, to the few a person might cite, I guess I have to say, that if we govern our lives by remote & rare exceptions, we might as well stay in our living rooms and put our detectors in the closet I hunt city parks and schools in any city I come to, and don't have a problem.

Yes, "asking permission is the responsible thing to do", when permission is needed.

 

[mts]

Re: Question about MD'ing at Schools

And yes, to the few a person might cite, I guess I have to say, that if we govern our lives by remote & rare exceptions, we might as well stay in our living rooms and put our detectors in the closet

Amen. The world is not black and white. It is an infinite number of shades and hues. We shouldn't live our lives expecting everything to fit into two nice categories (safe and unsafe). Everything we do has risks. We need to measure those risks for ourselves and make an informed decision. If we don't, we will end up spending our entire lives indoors in a bubble wondering what is going to kill us: swine flu, or some overzealous rental cop at the park. The most logical answer for the majority of people is "neither".

Yes, there are a few fringe cases that we should pay heed to. But we can't let them rule our lives as they are not the norm or even remotely common. Learn from them and use them to lessen your own risk.