rights at risk

[mrs.oroblanco]

SWR,

Good question - but I think the uneducated would be those people who make the ass-umption that because there are bad apples, that there are no good apples.

The folks who don't get to hear how much trash we get rid of on beaches and parks where we practice our hobby.
The folks who don't get to hear how many high school rings or other things that get returned to the original owners
The folks who don't get to hear how a "treasure found" can add to their knowledge of local history.
The folks who don't know or understand how dredging can HELP spawning waters.

Bottom line - the folks who don't hear any of the good things.

We (all of us here) understand what we do, what we don't do - and when we are roped off from a public area (private land is a whole 'nother thing), we always preach to the choir.

If I, or anyone else complains here - we, mostly understand - the uneducated are the folks who (1) want to control public property (like everyone from your local mayor to the Federal government, to organizations like Nature's Conservancy and Sierra Club), (2) anyone who is boondoggled by the above folks - the ones who think they are doing some good deed.

JMO


B

 

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[jeff of pa]

SWR,

Good question - but I think the uneducated would be those people who make the ass-umption that because there are bad apples, that there are no good apples.

The folks who don't get to hear how much trash we get rid of on beaches and parks where we practice our hobby.
The folks who don't get to hear how many high school rings or other things that get returned to the original owners
The folks who don't get to hear how a "treasure found" can add to their knowledge of local history.
The folks who don't know or understand how dredging can HELP spawning waters.

Bottom line - the folks who don't hear any of the good things.

We (all of us here) understand what we do, what we don't do - and when we are roped off from a public area (private land is a whole 'nother thing), we always preach to the choir.

If I, or anyone else complains here - we, mostly understand - the uneducated are the folks who (1) want to control public property (like everyone from your local mayor to the Federal government, to organizations like Nature's Conservancy and Sierra Club), (2) anyone who is boondoggled by the above folks - the ones who think they are doing some good deed.

JMO


B

Very well put
add to that the Uneducated are also
those who think you need an education
to touch things that are 50, 100, 200 years old,
that believe just because they went to a University
and got a fancy Degree they are above others.

Those that would get on their Knees
& Kiss the feet of anyone in authority
who tells them to; or would be
afraid to say "You First" To anyone
in power who say "Jump"

Add to that those who believe the Phrase
"It's for our own good"

 

[Goodyguy]

If I, or anyone else complains here - we, mostly understand - the uneducated are the folks who (1) want to control public property (like everyone from your local mayor to the Federal government, to organizations like Nature's Conservancy and Sierra Club), (2) anyone who is boondoggled by the above folks - the ones who think they are doing some good deed.

Those mentioned are far from being uneducated. They simply have different values and views about profitting from the use of land.

In my opinion they are not educated about what it is that we actually do and the impact we actually have on public land, so they make a judgement based on ignorance that we should be banned from our activities because of all the damage they think we do. They view us in a biased way because of a lack of education on the subject. Not education in the sense of going to school. But education on the issues and education of what goes on in the real world of recreational prospecting and metal detecting. That is what was meant by referring to them as uneducated.

As far as profiting off the land. Commercial mining has it's own rules and regulations. What we are talking about here is "recreational" use of public land, you could hardly call that profiting, but so what if a profit is made. Who does that hurt? We live in a capitalistic society, our economic system is based on capitalism. But now they don't even want to issue permits for our recreational activities, based on misinformation and lobbying efforts from groups like the Sierra Club and others.

Definition of uneducated: uninformed; lacking in knowledge or information.


GG~

 

[nova treasure]

No one in Office cares about a hobby that in there eyes believes you are taking away from the public.
They feel that they are the one's actually losing a right. a right to control what is being found and removed that may hold value.
If detectorist find a way to support the community with contribution and get the media/newspapers involved, than they would have the majority on there side and it would take notice. It's always about money and nothing more, if you want to keep options than it's going to cost ya.

Nova Treasure

 

[Goodyguy]

No one in Office cares about a hobby that in there eyes believes you are taking away from the public.
They feel that they are the one's actually losing a right. a right to control what is being found and removed that may hold value.
If detectorist find a way to support the community with contribution and get the media/newspapers involved, than they would have the majority on there side and it would take notice. It's always about money and nothing more, if you want to keep options than it's going to cost ya.

Nova Treasure

I don't mind paying as long as it keeps the land open to my hobby. I paid sales tax on my equipment, I pay City, State and Federal taxes that go towards public parks and such. I would even pay on top of all of that for a permit to enjoy my little hobby. But NOooooooooooo.........more and more land is being closed to recreational prospecting and metal detecting.
And now even recreational dredging permits are being denied in areas all over the country.

GG~

 

[BuckleBoy]

It has to do with our constitutional right to "the pursuit of happiness" that is being interfered with, the way I see it.
Also our constitutional right of "liberty" if we choose to use it to pursue our hobby according to our will.

These are the same "rights" that all of us use to enjoy our lives.

Pursuit of happiness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit_of_happiness
Liberty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty


GG~

Well, graffitti is my hobby, and my pursuit of happiness. And so is using using my mini-CAT to scrape up the ground. Man, it's fun to push up some dirt with that thing! I think I will go out with the bulldozer to the park now, since it is Not illegal to do so. There is nothing in the Law against it, and I have a right to do it because I paid for that park.

 

[nova treasure]

No one in Office cares about a hobby that in there eyes believes you are taking away from the public.
They feel that they are the one's actually losing a right. a right to control what is being found and removed that may hold value.
If detectorist find a way to support the community with contribution and get the media/newspapers involved, than they would have the majority on there side and it would take notice. It's always about money and nothing more, if you want to keep options than it's going to cost ya.

Nova Treasure

I don't mind paying as long as it keeps the land open to my hobby. I paid sales tax on my equipment, I pay City, State and Federal taxes that go towards public parks and such. I would even pay on top of all of that for a permit to enjoy my little hobby. But NOooooooooooo.........more and more land is being closed to recreational prospecting and metal detecting.
And now dredging permits are being denied in areas all over the country.

GG~

my opinion is that it will take a special contribution that brings special attention from the public to show Metal detecting is a Great hobby and until that is done, permission on public land will continue to be denied.
I know Politics is about Money and Control, so how do you feed them to care about are Small little hobby.
Nova Treasure

 

[BuckleBoy]

The founding fathers of our great nation saw it important to point out that the people had "inalienable rights" that the government did not have the power to remove. It is called the "Bill of Rights".

We also have individual "civil rights" not to be discriminated against. Rights that protect us from unwarranted governmental actions, and that insure out "right" to participate in a hobby that brings us "happiness" without repression.

How about that?

Show me one discrimination lawsuit that has been won on the basis of discrimination against a pasttime or pursuit. Just one. And then explain to me how the law covers this. If you think that the broad Bill of Rights covers this, then you are sorely mistaken. Public officials have every legal power to legislate what can-and cannot--be done on public property.

Are you handicapped or of an ethnic minority group? Are they banning blind detectorists? No. They are banning all detectorists, regardless of race, creed, or ability. And that is not discrimination, my friend.


-Buck

 

[Dimeman]

We are already Being accused of Stealing & Doing harm
by the uneducated

All kidding aside...the media is loaded with articles about tresspassing, vandalism and theft in regards to our fellow treasure hunters/metal detectorists.

Who would the uneducated be?

But you rarely hear about the professional looters that are from the universities and state archaeology departments. They sell items "lifted" from the digs or actual collections that they say, are for public use, to make a huge profit, while we might sell a coin or jewelry piece that we have found, for a few dollars. Since the state and university have more money to try and hush any "bad publicity". Can you guess whose name gets in the press... the metal detector "looters"??

 

[BuckleBoy]

SWR,

Good question - but I think the uneducated would be those people who make the ass-umption that because there are bad apples, that there are no good apples.

The folks who don't get to hear how much trash we get rid of on beaches and parks where we practice our hobby.
The folks who don't get to hear how many high school rings or other things that get returned to the original owners
The folks who don't get to hear how a "treasure found" can add to their knowledge of local history.
The folks who don't know or understand how dredging can HELP spawning waters.

Bottom line - the folks who don't hear any of the good things.

Which is why we must Relentlessly promote our good deeds and the good deeds of other hobbyists. Now is not the time to tuck tail and run. Those who do good deeds, it is Not enough. It may satisfy you ethically or personally, but it will not stave off the vise grip being tightened around our hobby. Call your local newspaper and tell the the story about returning that class ring. Share with others when you're out hunting that you are clearing dangerous items from the tot lots and parks--rather than ignoring everyone with your headphones on. Write an article on a piece that you've recovered that has shed light on some facet of local history. When you donate items to your local museum, make sure that it has your name followed by the words "Metal Detector Hobbyist." Get permission from the principal to be a guest and share your finds with local kids at schools. They are the next generation of The Public, and you can ensure that they see the value in what we do by sharing history with them! I can't imagine that the kids that I've shared my finds with would EVER crack down against me or my hobby, regardless of whether they end up being park personnel, local government, or police.

The problem is not that we're preaching to the choir--the problem is that people are lazy, and they will let negative publicity from bad apples overshadow the good aspects of the hobby. The other good thread on this topic has now died, with no progress made--not even rewriting the Code of Ethics or formulating a strategy to help solve this problem. In the past, I have done all of the things that I suggested above. Could you imagine if ten thousand metal detectorists promoted the good things they'd done? Now that's some publicity to counteract the few negative things that come out in the press each year!

Get off your butt, turn off the TV and get started. The time is Now.

 

[BuckleBoy]

I don't mind paying as long as it keeps the land open to my hobby. I paid sales tax on my equipment, I pay City, State and Federal taxes that go towards public parks and such. I would even pay on top of all of that for a permit to enjoy my little hobby. But NOooooooooooo.........more and more land is being closed to recreational prospecting and metal detecting.
And now even recreational dredging permits are being denied in areas all over the country.

GG~

Did you really pay KY or IN tax on your detector? Are you sure it wasn't Winter Springs Florida tax? And how much of your tax dollars go towards the parks? You've dug enough clad there this year to pay a decade worth most likely.

What you said above is not a valid argument. Local taxes pay for public libraries, road maintenance, snow and ice removal, maintenance equipment, school busses, drivers, workers, government officials' salaries, and the list goes on. How much of that paltry "local tax" that you pay each year goes to your park?

A permit would be paid Directly to the park, and this is the way to go. Then you pay for the priviledge but that priviledge is still granted. And this is the direction we should be heading in your--and my area.



Regards,



Buckles

 

[BuckleBoy]

But you rarely hear about the professional looters that are from the universities and state archaeology departments. They sell items "lifted" from the digs or actual collections that they say, are for public use, to make a huge profit, while we might sell a coin or jewelry piece that we have found, for a few dollars. Since the state and university have more money to try and hush any "bad publicity". Can you guess whose name gets in the press... the metal detector "looters"??

Trying to kick dirt in the archies faces is no way to solve this problem, and I feel certain that you must realize it. I don't care about what has been looted because there are bad apples on BOTH sides of this equation. Stop shifting the blame and take responsibility for the public image of our great hobby. I have listed a few possibilities in a post up above if you are willing to stop the finger-pointing and do something constructive.


Best Wishes,



Buckleboy

 

[Goodyguy]

Did you really pay KY or IN tax on your detector? Are you sure it wasn't Winter Springs Florida tax? And how much of your tax dollars go towards the parks? You've dug enough clad there this year to pay a decade worth most likely.

What you said above is not a valid argument. Local taxes pay for public libraries, road maintenance, snow and ice removal, maintenance equipment, school busses, drivers, workers, government officials' salaries, and the list goes on. How much of that paltry "local tax" that you pay each year goes to your park?

A permit would be paid Directly to the park, and this is the way to go. Then you pay for the priviledge but that priviledge is still granted. And this is the direction we should be heading in your--and my area.



Regards,



Buckles

Since when does the share an individual pays in taxes that goes to the park system have anything to do with their share of enjoying public property?

It doesn't matter if I pay 1 cent or a million, Unless I missed something, our tax dollars are there for the benefit of all equally. For that reason alone, I should have the same right to enjoy my legal hobby in the park as anyone else does. (sorry BB spraying graffiti is not a legal hobby)

And as I stated, I am all for having a permit system, but just to be fair, everyone else should have to get one for their activity too, Frisbee throwing, kite flying, sledding, horseshoes, badminton, hiking, picnicking, etc. If not, then yes metal detecting is being discriminated against those other public use of the park activities.


GG~

 

[Tom_in_CA]

buckleboy, you say:

"Well, graffitti is my hobby, and my pursuit of happiness. And so is using using my mini-CAT to scrape up the ground. Man, it's fun to push up some dirt with that thing! I think I will go out with the bulldozer to the park now, since it is Not illegal to do so. There is nothing in the Law against it, and I have a right to do it because I paid for that park."

Here are the errors in your analogy, in-so-far as it pertains to metal detecting:

1) it is illegal to destroy the park with a bulldozer, and graffitti. "Destruction of property" is no doubt written into any city's codes.

2) metal detecting does not, per se, destroy anything. Do you destroy things when you hunt? Do you leave divots? Do you leave any sign of your presence If you do leave messes and destruction, you need to return to detecting 101 class, and review your basics on target recovery skills.

Your premise of metal detecting = destruction, would be like saying: "since my family's toyota corolla is capable of doing 110 mph, therefore, by definition, I will/must break the speed limit law"

 

[Dimeman]

But you rarely hear about the professional looters that are from the universities and state archaeology departments. They sell items "lifted" from the digs or actual collections that they say, are for public use, to make a huge profit, while we might sell a coin or jewelry piece that we have found, for a few dollars. Since the state and university have more money to try and hush any "bad publicity". Can you guess whose name gets in the press... the metal detector "looters"??

Trying to kick dirt in the archies faces is no way to solve this problem, and I feel certain that you must realize it. I don't care about what has been looted because there are bad apples on BOTH sides of this equation. Stop shifting the blame and take responsibility for the public image of our great hobby. I have listed a few possibilities in a post up above if you are willing to stop the finger-pointing and do something constructive.


Best Wishes,



Buckleboy

Not finger pointing and not kicking the dirt in the archies faces....just telling you I have read more about bad detectorists than bad archies in the newspapers and heard on TV. And agrees there are bad apples on both sides.

Have any of you watched the WWATS 2009 State Of The Hobby videos posted on youtube In the 5th section, the speaker talks about making up a folder of the good that detectorists have done in your area. Articles in the paper on rings returned, club members cleaning up different areas, pictures of some of the dangerous items found in park areas, etc....etc....
I started up a folder like that for the detecting club I am in, some months ago.
If and when the time comes to meet with different officials and talk about detecting and trying to get spots re-open, or keep spots from getting closed, the club and metal detectorists in general, will have some positive "ammunition" to show them.

 

[Goodyguy]

Not finger pointing and not kicking the dirt in the archies faces....just telling you I have read more about bad detectorists than bad archies in the newspapers and heard on TV. And agrees there are bad apples on both sides.

Have any of you watched the WWATS 2009 State Of The Hobby videos posted on youtube In the 5th section, the speaker talks about making up a folder of the good that detectorists have done in your area. Articles in the paper on rings returned, club members cleaning up different areas, pictures of some of the dangerous items found in park areas, etc....etc....
I started up a folder like that for the detecting club I am in, some months ago.
If and when the time comes to meet with different officials and talk about detecting and trying to get spots re-open, or keep spots from getting closed, the club and metal detectorists in general, will have some positive "ammunition" to show them.

Awesome, That is what people need to be doing rather than stirring the pot.

Good Post!

 

[nova treasure]

I am just a old Dumb Country boy that Loves History and Detecting. I use to go around to Small towns and find the Mayor of every town and tell him what I do as a hobby and wondered if he could help me with the history of the town and possibly give me some insite on where i may be able to detect weather it be public or private land. In return I would be more than glad to do some community work around the town to show my appreiciation for there granted permission and help. I hardly ever had to work but wherever I was detecting I always offered donations or offered half my finds and/or all of my clad out of respect for the Community. I was allowed many places to hunt and was respected by many,on one occasion a Mayors daughter wanted to try out detecting and i showed her how to use my machine and she hunted for about an hour,why i drink tea with the Mayor.

My point is, if you want to be Respected for what We do, you must build a relationship with your surroundings.
If you want to hunt Parks,quit worrying about discrimination and how unfair things are. Locate the one in Charge,offer to start a fundraisor or get a group together to build a park project or something in trade for a annual permit to detect. Anything to get the public eye on your side.
I would do it anytime for a private land hunt because I enjoy my hobby enough to support it.

Nova Treasure

 

[lostcauses]

Conversion of public property to personal use or profit is usually against the law with out permit. Conversion of lost property to personal uses, or profit is also against the law. Conversion of lost property can be as low as $3.00 in some states, to $100.00.

"I had to double check, but the use of public land does not fall under the 5th amendment. Using public land for profit is not a right"

Yet the officials do usually know the laws, See to top of this post. Most treasure hunters/Md'ers do not. This is just the basic laws not the rest that also can be applicable. Seems ignorance is on all sided of the situation. Yet the folks that are against such behavior and acts, usually know the law better.

"If I, or anyone else complains here - we, mostly understand - the uneducated are the folks who (1) want to control public property (like everyone from your local mayor to the Federal government, to organizations like Nature's Conservancy and Sierra Club), (2) anyone who is boondoggled by the above folks - the ones who think they are doing some good deed."

Amusing but normal BS: again you throw all into a acts of a few. And then use it as an excuse to believe you are better than the authority. It is the same crap a few (authority) do to the Treasure hunter/Md'er to see them selves better than them.
Yet again that education, and organization gives them a greater advantage over a rough group of a few folks.

"Very well put
add to that the Uneducated are also
those who think you need an education
to touch things that are 50, 100, 200 years old,
that believe just because they went to a University
and got a fancy Degree they are above others.

Those that would get on their Knees
& Kiss the feet of anyone in authority
who tells them to; or would be
afraid to say "You First" To anyone
in power who say "Jump"

Add to that those who believe the Phrase
"It's for our own good""

SWR put it best: "Those mentioned are far from being uneducated. They simply have different values and views about profitting from the use of land."

"and unfortunately some fool will liken it to drug Use," Regrettable, this is showing up in the Indian artifact system as meth heads doing such.
Yet even in the MD'ing a behavior that goes beyond the norm does occur. The term addicted shows up a lot. It is more like gambling addiction, than drug addiction. Most in the Md'ing do not have problems with such, yet some do. It is also one of them problems through out the treasure hunting system.


A very clear view of there side of a situation.
nova treasure: "No one in Office cares about a hobby that in there eyes believes you are taking away from the public.
They feel that they are the one's actually losing a right. a right to control what is being found and removed that may hold value.
If detectorist find a way to support the community with contribution and get the media/newspapers involved, than they would have the majority on there side and it would take notice. It's always about money and nothing more, if you want to keep options than it's going to cost ya."

There is that foolish idea of paying taxes is paying for rights. Sorry does not work that way.
Partial quote: "I paid sales tax on my equipment, I pay City, State and Federal taxes"


Insdead of saying they (athority) is all worng, ignorant and unkowning, this is the correct method to get things done:
"my opinion is that it will take a special contribution that brings special attention from the public to show Metal detecting is a Great hobby and until that is done, permission on public land will continue to be denied.
I know Politics is about Money and Control, so how do you feed them to care about are Small little hobby.
Nova Treasure"
-----------------------------------

At any point you disturb the ground to retrieve a target destruction happens. The idea you have a right to repair it afterwords is extremely questionable. Yet that is what is done, hopefully properly. To say it is not destructive, LOL I am sure I can find photos of idiots that do tear up the place and do not repair it properly. You can say YOU repair it properly, yet all it takes is to show is one fool that did not. Your statements become pointless in any presentation of authority.

You can jump up and down and scream YOU take care of the land by properly covering your holes. You can show photos, yet it only takes one good photo of the mess left by some other person to out do that. Yet showing were many do it right may help.

"2) metal detecting does not, per se, destroy anything. Do you destroy things when you hunt? Do you leave divots? Do you leave any sign of your presence Huh If you do leave messes and destruction, you need to return to detecting 101 class, and review your basics on target recovery skills."
-----------------------------

One can trash the authority, government officials, and archeologist all they want. It will do nothing to aid the problem.
The idea of interpreting constitutional law, and saying MD'ing is a right is just pointless even if the individual beilefes such is true. Get a laweyer for such, and file a constitutional case for such.
In a presentation to authority about MD'ing (to allow, or ban); all this would be laughed at.

Some great suggestions have been said of what should be done:
The main one, but not all is to show the good MD'ing does.

I believe folks should keep track of the trash removed when MD'ing. Any removal of hazardous materials including were it was should also be kept.

One can say how good THEY are at not leaving sign as an individual, due to metal detecting: Yet this one does need to be shown. Photos of during, and times after could be used. It would of course take more than one individual doing such. Maybe videos of correct methods of cutting and filling need to be done also. Again showing them over time after.

There is more on the various threads. I may or may not take the time to put them all together.

 

[Seamuss]

The thread a slob in the park is a different twist on this subject of our, "Rights at risk"

 

[BuckleBoy]

And as I stated, I am all for having a permit system, but just to be fair, everyone else should have to get one for their activity too, Frisbee throwing, kite flying, sledding, horseshoes, badminton, hiking, picnicking, etc. If not, then yes metal detecting is being discriminated against those other public use of the park activities.


GG~

Do frisbee throwers Remove part of the park and take it home with them or sell it? How about the kite flyers? Do the sledders use a non-renewable resource, or will it snow again next year too? How about all the other hobbies you mentioned? Do they remove park property? Do the father and daughter playing "catch" there sell tickets for a profit? Are lost coins considered park property? Who do they belong to, GG? You see, this is a complicated question! I'm playing devil's advocate here, but none of the other legal hobbies in a park take anything away from the park or deplete a non-renewable resource. They are not "extractive" like ours. So No, detectorists are Not being discriminated against.


-Buck