rights at risk

[eldorado]

If our rights are at risk...... could someone smarter than me, tachfully write a letter that WE could All copy and send to our congressmen. I would like to think if EVERYONE on the site would copy the letter, and send it to there representative. maybe someone might look into keepin some freedoms for this hobby. maybe,, what do yall think

 

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[eldorado]

well guess I will curl up like the rest and let my government supply all my needs.........................

 

[Sandman]

In my state of Michigan the State Troopers are being laid off while the Governor is keeping the Office of the Archeologist's open. Go Figure......... I have written our Senators and my Representatives till I am blue in the face and until they can see some votes, you can forget it.

 

[BIG61AL]

I am also in the believe that elected officials will not act in the responce to letters or emails by those they represent. They only care about votes and keeping the gravy train running. If they don't serve your interests your only real recourse is to vote them out and hope for the best.

 

[Sandman]

If our rights are at risk...... could someone smarter than me, tachfully write a letter that WE could All copy and send to our congressmen. I would like to think if EVERYONE on the site would copy the letter, and send it to there representative. maybe someone might look into keepin some freedoms for this hobby. maybe,, what do yall think

Which one of your rights are at risk?

Please....be specific.

Right, Metal Detecting is not a right. It is just a hobby that is a lot of fun for me and many others. Someone could say it is our right to "Happiness."

 

[hogge]

If our rights are at risk...... could someone smarter than me, tachfully write a letter that WE could All copy and send to our congressmen. I would like to think if EVERYONE on the site would copy the letter, and send it to there representative. maybe someone might look into keepin some freedoms for this hobby. maybe,, what do yall think

Which one of your rights are at risk?

Please....be specific.

Right, Metal Detecting is not a right. It is just a hobby that is a lot of fun for me and many others. Someone could say it is our right to "Happiness."

This is my point. DO YOU, as a metal detectorist, want someone putting restrictions on your hobby or your "Right to Happiness"?? Someone always has their hands outstretched asking for "their" cut or, thinking "they" know what's best for YOU.

 

[Goodyguy]

Looks like we have two choices then.

1. Try to do something now before metal detecting is prohibited on all public land.

2. Keep detecting where we can until metal detecting is prohibited on all public land, and then try to do something about it.

As of today there are close to 200 public parks closed to metal detecting within 25 miles of my home, 125 parks in Louisville Kentucky alone last year, and then all City and County parks just across the river in my state this year. Spreading to your town soon if not there already.

My research has led me to believe that these closings are due mostly because of complaints from concerned citizens who see the digging and report vandalism to the authorities. Who then take the easy route of setting a policy against our activity. Quoting archaeological laws as their justification.

If the public or the authorities see us as a threat rather than an asset then we will loose every time. We must show the general public and those in charge that we are worthy of their support before it is too late if it is not already.

I personally do not hunt city parks, but I believe we all should have the right to enjoy these parks just like any one else who affects the turf with their activities.


GG~

 

[hogge]

There is an old saying..." Don't urinate down my back, and try and tell me it's raining."

 

[Goodyguy]

Lots of old sayings to cover any situation.

"A stitch in time saves nine"

"That dog wont hunt"

"Don't cry over spilled milk"

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"

"A chain is no stronger than its weakest link"

And on and on.

"Old sayings will not keep public land from being closed"


GG~

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Goodguy, you say: "Try to do something now before metal detecting is prohibited on all public land." and: "Keep detecting where we can until metal detecting is prohibited on all public land"

Believe it or not, it's statements like these ("the sky is falling"), that end up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. When newbies in any other part of the USA, reads of isolated (geographically speaking) bootings like this, followed up with statements/conclusions like yours quoted above, guess what their knee-jerk reaction is? They may be in an area where no one cares, and the matter has never been given thought. But it's no matter! Good-guy's post (and others like it) proove that the sandbox at the corner park in my little town has archie's with machine guns waiting to shoot me! So they start running around assuming that they're doing something wrong, asking city clerks and cops "can I?" (lest they be arrested for "doing something wrong" or "just to make sure there isn't a law"), and PRESTO! It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, where they start getting "no's", where no one ever gave then a second thought before (since afterall, you asked, so something must be wrong or damaging about it).

I saw this psychology play out first-hand, back in the mid 1980s, when the very first of the FMDAC mailers came out to brick & mortar clubs. Mind you, prior to that, such stories of bootings were never heard of before. Now all of the sudden, such citations in far-away locales were being read out loud. I can still recall the look of some older skittish folks in the room, assuming they needed to rush down to city hall, get permission, see if there's permits, blah blah blah. Others of us thought "nonsense, I've detected at our parks/schools for 10 yrs, in full view of anyone and everyone, why would I all of the sudden assume something is wrong?"

I feel for you, and others in locales where something may actually be there, and actually be enforced. But you have to be REAL CAREFUL in rallying persons in places where no one cares, lest they think they have to write their congressman, talk to their mayors and police-chiefs, county supervisors, etc... as if they had something to defend against. Because the more they do that, the more they will, in fact, get rules to "address their pressing issue" (by people who frankly probably never cared or gave a second glance at you).

And then you say: "these closings are due mostly because of complaints from concerned citizens who see the digging and report vandalism to the authorities". Be aware that even though this "holes" excuse may be what is given as a reason by whatever bureaucrat you're talking to, that in all reality, that may just be the lip-service reason for their "no", when in fact, the REAL reason (or the "REAL" reason the issue even came up to their level, in the first place), was people asking "mother may I?", and it was simply "holes" that was the first image to pop in someone's mind. So later, when they're asked "why is the answer 'no'?", they say "because of holes". And then Goodguy hears that, and thinks that's why there's a rule. But it was really the seeking of sanctions and approvals (as if it was needed) that started the ball rolling, to begin with.

Yes there may be some locales where it is really in fact holes as an issue, and not people asking dumb questions. But I'm sure there are other locales, where nothing EVENTUALLY got written, until people started asking "can I metal detect?"

 

[Goodyguy]

Ok then, what are our choices as you see them?

Do something?
Not do anything?


I am all ears.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good-guy, I don't know what to do on a national scale, but on a one-on-one personal scale, (peer to peer, friend-to-friend), I encourage keeping a low profile, avoiding sticking out, etc.... NOT BECAUSE ANYTHING IS WRONG WITH IT, but because, with our odd-looking space-gadgets, we tend to draw stares, attention, etc.. from busy-bodies.

If it were just a random guy here or there, in a certain park green, 1 or 2x per month, no one would care, right? But if 10 people go, for 10 days straight, busy-bodies will watch and say "Just what are they doing anyhow?" "Is it a club?" blah blah. Do you see how a single person, who acted like he "knew what he was doing" went un-noticed, and no one thought to spoil his fun? But when 10 people do it, all looking over their shoulder, PRESTO, people wonder if you should really be there doing that. Just like nose-picking: if you are discreet, no one notices. But if you and 10 buddies do it at high noon at Main and 3rd street, the city clerk will tell you that you need a parade permit.

So on a one-on-one basis, I can get people over this hurdle. But on a national level, I wish I had a better idea.

I recall, as a 19 yr. old kid, that another 19 yr. old I hung around with, bragged that he could get into any bar, anywhere in town (CA's legal drinking age is 21). I asked him "wow, I guess you have a fake ID, right?". He said "no, no fake ID. It's easy: you just 'walk right in like you own the place', and no one cards you". He had figured out that it's only those that stop at the door, look at the bouncer funny, try to avoid his scrutiny, etc... that get carded. If you just walk right in, not even thinking about it, people assume you know what you're doing. So....... yes I know this illistration is "strained", because in that case, the kid is breaking an age law. But the psychological point has always stuck out to me, that sometimes, "no one cares or notices, till you ask". I think this psychology is very strong in our (md'ing) case, when there's really nothing specific to disallow md'ing in your locale.

Now, how to convey this on a national scale? Probably impossible, because it's an "attitude" and a "psychology" that can not be put in to print. People tend to want the park to have a blazing sign posted "metal detecting IS allowed, come one, come all!" lest they risk "getting in trouble". Unfortunately, we're in a hobby where ....... just like fishing ....... 1 or 2 guys at a secret fishing hole is just fine. But when 20 people want to descend on that same fishing hole at the same time, a) there's not enough fish to go around, and b) 2 out of those 20 will run off to their nearest bureaucrat wanting rules and laws to be enacted to maintain order and legality on the fishing hole. c) meanwhile, those first one or two fishermen who never had a problem, are left scratching their heads thinking "what happened?"

 

[Dimeman]

Goodguy, you say: "Try to do something now before metal detecting is prohibited on all public land." and: "Keep detecting where we can until metal detecting is prohibited on all public land"

Believe it or not, it's statements like these ("the sky is falling"), that end up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. When newbies in any other part of the USA, reads of isolated (geographically speaking) bootings like this, followed up with statements/conclusions like yours quoted above, guess what their knee-jerk reaction is? They may be in an area where no one cares, and the matter has never been given thought. But it's no matter! Good-guy's post (and others like it) proove that the sandbox at the corner park in my little town has archie's with machine guns waiting to shoot me! So they start running around assuming that they're doing something wrong, asking city clerks and cops "can I?" (lest they be arrested for "doing something wrong" or "just to make sure there isn't a law"), and PRESTO! It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, where they start getting "no's", where no one ever gave then a second thought before (since afterall, you asked, so something must be wrong or damaging about it).

I saw this psychology play out first-hand, back in the mid 1980s, when the very first of the FMDAC mailers came out to brick & mortar clubs. Mind you, prior to that, such stories of bootings were never heard of before. Now all of the sudden, such citations in far-away locales were being read out loud. I can still recall the look of some older skittish folks in the room, assuming they needed to rush down to city hall, get permission, see if there's permits, blah blah blah. Others of us thought "nonsense, I've detected at our parks/schools for 10 yrs, in full view of anyone and everyone, why would I all of the sudden assume something is wrong?"

I feel for you, and others in locales where something may actually be there, and actually be enforced. But you have to be REAL CAREFUL in rallying persons in places where no one cares, lest they think they have to write their congressman, talk to their mayors and police-chiefs, county supervisors, etc... as if they had something to defend against. Because the more they do that, the more they will, in fact, get rules to "address their pressing issue" (by people who frankly probably never cared or gave a second glance at you).

And then you say: "these closings are due mostly because of complaints from concerned citizens who see the digging and report vandalism to the authorities". Be aware that even though this "holes" excuse may be what is given as a reason by whatever bureaucrat you're talking to, that in all reality, that may just be the lip-service reason for their "no", when in fact, the REAL reason (or the "REAL" reason the issue even came up to their level, in the first place), was people asking "mother may I?", and it was simply "holes" that was the first image to pop in someone's mind. So later, when they're asked "why is the answer 'no'?", they say "because of holes". And then Goodguy hears that, and thinks that's why there's a rule. But it was really the seeking of sanctions and approvals (as if it was needed) that started the ball rolling, to begin with.

Yes there may be some locales where it is really in fact holes as an issue, and not people asking dumb questions. But I'm sure there are other locales, where nothing EVENTUALLY got written, until people started asking "can I metal detect?"

Tom,
Let's say California revised all laws concerning metal detecting, and prohibited their use, in ALL State, and county park areas beginning August 1, 2009.
After the many years of being able to detect areas, NOW it is illegal to detect because the officials decided that it is better for the good of "all"......

What would you do

 

[Goodyguy]

So you think this is only an isolated problem?
I was under the impression that parks were being closed all over the US.
Texas, New York, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Florida, Just to name a few.

Perhaps I am just overreacting because it just recently happened in my area.

GG~

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dimeman, to answer your question: I'dget p*ssed at those who asked for sanctions, clarifications, permission, etc.... in my area, that caused the un-due attention, to begin with.

Dimeman, your question is "loaded". Like the "Do you still beat your wife?" type question. Because you and I know the INFERENCE of your question is "Hurry and fight now, lest a law be enacted 8/1/09", right?

That's the pscyhology used to sell insurance to the gullible: "ah gee, I thought you cared about your wife and kids. Are you sure you don't want to buy this disability insurance policy Mr. Smith?" Do you see how the question merely pre-assumes something is about, or could be about, to happen? It only pre-supposes the "yes Mr. insurance salesman, I guess if I love my wife and kids, I'd be stupid not to buy your policy" and presto, the saleman closes another sale.

 

[Dimeman]

So you think this is only an isolated problem?
I was under the impression that parks were being closed all over the US.
Texas, New York, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Florida, Just to name a few.

Maybe I am just overreacting because it just recently happened in my area.

GG~

GG,
You are not overreacting and parks and other areas ARE being closed to detectorists all over the country.

There have been many county areas and city areas just in Texas, within the last 2 years that have banned metal detector use, after years and years of allowing detector users hunt the areas.
The problem is growing and will continue to grow, in many states across the country..


How do we stop, or reverse the continued prohibited use of metal detectors
Tom seems to think , all we have to do is keep a low-profile, don't make waves, and don't ask-just detect. And that will solve the problem!!!!!!

Is that going to get all the spots that are now closed to detecting, re-open
Is that going to stop any other areas from being closed in the future?
Doing nothing won't help at all, and even though trying to reverse the decisions doesn't help sometimes, at least we can say, that we tried !!!!

 

[Dimeman]

Dimeman, to answer your question: I'dget p*ssed at those who asked for sanctions, clarifications, permission, etc.... in my area, that caused the un-due attention, to begin with.

Dimeman, your question is "loaded". Like the "Do you still beat your wife?" type question. Because you and I know the INFERENCE of your question is "Hurry and fight now, lest a law be enacted 8/1/09", right?

That's the pscyhology used to sell insurance to the gullible: "ah gee, I thought you cared about your wife and kids. Are you sure you don't want to buy this disability insurance policy Mr. Smith?" Do you see how the question merely pre-assumes something is about, or could be about, to happen? It only pre-supposes the "yes Mr. insurance salesman, I guess if I love my wife and kids, I'd be stupid not to buy your policy" and presto, the saleman closes another sale.

My inference is , if your area was closed to detecting, would you do anything to help get it re-open?? I don't think you would------------------ you would keep your blinders on and keep on detecting, just like you have been doing for years---even though it would be against the law.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dimeman, you say:

"There have been many county areas and city areas just in Texas, within the last 2 years that have banned metal detector use, after years and years of allowing detector users hunt the areas. The problem is growing and will continue to grow, in many states across the country...."

But you fail to ask yourself, WHY DID THIS HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE? And I keep contending that the reason it happens IN THE FIRST PLACE, is people asking for clarifications, permissions (where nothing specifically disallowed it), sanctions, and went and got political, petitioning, etc...

So everytime I say this, you return to the sky-is-falling examples and mantras. But you fail to ask yourself, "why is it falling?" It is the very things you are promoting to fight it, that just end up spreading the cancer. So when I tell people to NOT draw attention to themselves (making themselves a target), then THAT is the *best* thing they can do for their hobby.

Yes, this does not help those in already restrictive environments. It will though, help those in places where no one cares, and they hope to keep it that way.

 

[Goodyguy]

Tom I like your optimism.

And I must agree that asking city hall what the local laws, policies, rules, or statutes are, concerning metal detecting in city parks, could cause the casting of a wary eye toward our activities by those in charge, especially if they have never considered whether or not our hobby would have a negative impact on the public areas in their trust.

However....... no matter what you or I, say or do, there is always going to be someone who is going to ask for permission. So in that case, it is just a matter of time until every official in every city in the country has been asked what the rules are, concerning metal detecting in their parks, and their decision will be made based upon their perception of what impact our activity will have on the park, and on any complaints in the past that they may have had.

If they check to see what other cities are doing around the country they will find out that just saying no is the easiest policy. What is really needed, is for us to have such a positive image in the first place, that any city official would see us as an asset to the community because of our reputation as being a crime deterrent and of helping to take care of the parks themselves by keeping them clean and free of hazardous objects. and our willingness to work with law enforcement by reporting any suspicious gang, drug or other crime related activity.

But to do that, would require drawing attention to ourselves, and there are those who say any attention directed toward us, no matter how positive, could still be a bad thing. I respectfully disagree.



GG~

 

[Dimeman]

Yes, this does not help those in already restrictive environments.

Tom, Finally we both agree on this one !!!!!
_____________________________________
In those places recently closed to detecting after 20-40 years of being able to detect, what do you believe should be done

Should we even try to get them re-open
Or just let them pick and choose what recreational hobby each person will have.

I for one am NOT going to just sit on my hands and do nothing.