Kicked out of my local park... Should I fight it??

[Silver Surfer]

I live in a small town in central Florida.. About 5 miles from my home is a very big sports park.. I have hunted it since re-starting MD'ing back in September. I have talked with groundskeepers, and have never had a problem. Although I havent hunted the baseball fields much (too much good soccer area to cover), I have found really nothing but clad in the areas I hunt, along with an unusual amount of slaw (apparently these guys are too lazy to get off their mowers to pick up cans)...
The other day, I had hit one tot lot, and then decided to go try the other one.. While walking from one to the other, at the other side of the park, a guy comes speeding over to me in one of those John Deere carts and says to me "get off my field"... I said "Excuse me?"... He then replies "I said get off my field.. I dont allow that in here"..
I asked him who he was, and he replied "I am the Park Manager and I dont allow that in here".. I then explained to him that I had been hunting it since September, and he was the only one who had ever told me MD'ing wasnt allowed..
"I dont care, I am the park manager, and I havent seen you before.. You cant do that here".. At that point, I was in-between real sadness and anger.. "Can you tell me the law that states I cannot Detect here?" "Yeah, my law".. I then went on to explain to him that it was a public park, and that he couldnt arbitrarily make a rule, that it had to be a rule adopted and then put in place by the city council, etc... I then asked him who his supervisor was. "The Mayor, and you feel free to call him up if you want, but you cannot do that in here"... I then said to him, while showing him my pouch that was full of can slaw, and even broken bottles with the caps on.. "You realize how much we pick up here?"... He then says "yeah, and how much of what you find to you share with the city, or do you keep it all for yourself?"
At this point, he drove off and I was really feeling down. Although I really havent found all that much in that park, it is close to home and even if I only find a few bucks in clad, it is nice to now that I have a place close by to hunt.. Then, his words "how much do you share with the city, or do you keep it all for yourself" resonated in my ears again, and I got mad... Reeally mad...
I started walking over to where he was talking to a groundskeeper and yelled at him... "Hey, we are not done talking yet"... I walked over to him and said "you need to understand one thing.. You cannot just decide that you dont like something, and create your own rule.. The rules of the park do not say it is forbidden, and before I started hunting here, I called up the city and they told me there was no rule or law that said it could not be done.."
He then got nicer and apologized for "flying off the handle", and then explained that another MD'er had cut through an electric line under ground, and was lucky he didnt get killed. He also said that it cost $10,000 to fix the cut line..
I then explained to him that I was sorry that happened, and that I know there are some real arse wipes in our detector community, but that I was not one of them, and that only an idiot MD'er would try to dig up a cable "as it is quite clear to someone who knows what he is doing that it is a wire.. there is no necklace out there that continues on underground for ever, and even if the signal only goes for a foot or so, it is pretty easy to know you are swiping over a wire...
He wouldnt budge, and I left for home..
Having gone through one of the worst years of my life, and almost passing away in August, I figured I would just let it go...
Then I got home and my wife said "BS! He cant just make up his own rule, you need to fight this"... My feeling is, especially in this "Good ol' Boy" state, that if I raise a stink, they will just bring it up at the next town council meeting, pass a new law, and I may lose the ability to hunt anywhere in the city...

So what do you all think I should do? Let it go, or fight it?
I figured that if I fight it, I would take the 30 or more pounds of the tabs, BT's, and slaw in to them to show just how much cleanup we do.. I would also explain to them that just because a bunch of people are playing soccer, and someone does a bunch of damage to say, the bathroom, do they then ban soccer playing there? Of course they dont. I see graffitti all over walls on the concession area all the time.. Do they then ban people from being there?
Also, I have NEVER seen evidence of any bad MD'ing there, like dead spots, signs of holes left unfilled, etc...
After his little comment on how I keep everything to myself, I have to wonder if he is really protecting the spot for a friend of his or something. I have only seen one other MD'er there, and he wasnt happy to see me there. According to this manager, he has kicked 4 people off, including me..

Sorry for the long post, but I really want your opinions on this. I once had a favorite spearfishing spot, and one day a sheriff pulled up in his boat and harrassed me and my buddy.. Then told me I couldnt spear hunt in that area.. I told him there was no law against it and he was wrong, he then threatened to arrest me "and the judge can figure it out monday morning (this was a saturday)..
I left, called the Sheriff dept, and talked to the head of water patrols.. He told me the guy was FOS, out of line, and that I had every right to spear where I was. He also gave me his name and number, and told me what to tell the guy should he ever hassle me again.. His last comment was "I think he is trying to protect that area for his buddies who spearfish"... That stuck with me, and is why I suspect it may be the reason that this guy kicked me out after MD'ing there for the last 6 months with nary a word from anyone...

Thanks all..

 

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[Silver Surfer]

Hey Spooky...
It is the only sports park here. We have a few small park areas that just have benches and stuff... There is another small park with tot lot and beach/boat launch area directly across from this park, but he said that it is a county park and he has no jurisdiction over it.. I really dont think a simple worker would tell me his name, and tell me to call the mayor if I have a problem with his ruling..
I could see them making a rule if MD'er were consistently tearing things up, but it is not the case, and as I said, in 6 months of going there, I have only run into another MD'er.. ONCE...
The day I was there, that had had a HUGE soccer tournament the day before, and I saw where everyone was sitting/playing, as to plan to hit it the next day. There must have been over 1000 people there, I am sure I would have made some good finds. He put a stop to that idea...

 

[Lowbatts]

You're on the right track for sure. Use the trash and can slaw as evidence of the beneficial side of the hobby. If you have any record or notes from people who you have returned items to, use them and take it to the guys boss, if that's the mayor, all the better.

Get some pictures of the worn out and torn up turf where the soccer games are played, it is a very destructive sport for turf. Then some before and after pictures of a recovery and the ground condition.

Our hobby by and large, overwhelmingly, does not require money, fees or tax dollars to patch ground or cleanup after activities while almost every other event in a park does. If need be seek a permit process through the city.

There should be a record of that repair cost for the damaged power line, I'm betting there isn't.

You're already a winner because you are taking the high ground. Just stay on the friendly, non-confrontational side of the argument and stick it to them.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Very good Spooky, I think that is very good advise, and I am going to get it going.. Like I said, I havent really found all that much there, it is just he idea of a PUBLIC SERVANT thinking he can just form an opinion, and then make a rule all his own.. It is wrong and should not be tolerated.. I only fear though, that if he is "buddies" with the city council and mayor, they may just make a rule that no MD'ing is allowed anywhere in the city.. That would suck.. I will be sure to keep you all posted on how it goes...

 

[mick56]

He wants to know if you would "share" the finds with the city?
If he found a $20 bill while mowing, do you think he is going to turn that in?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

silver surfer, your post is almost identical to this one:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,304929.0.html

So I'll just cut and paste what I wrote there, as it pertains to the "doesn't there have to be an actual law/rule?" question:


I, like you, was detecting at a public place, where public access is not disallowed (walking, jogging, flying frisbees, etc...). It was a city property in a city that had nothing specific addressing metal detecting. Lo and behold a city gardener came up and booted me (I wasn't even in the midst of any target recoveries, so "holes" or "digging" had nothing to do with it). I, like yourself, rehearsed with this gentleman that I was doing nothing wrong, breaking no rules, etc... He, like your situation, continued to rehearse "you can't be doing that here" for essentially what was only "because I said so". I didn't want to argue with him anymore, so I left. I then got in contact with a lawyer friend, and told him the whole story. My basic thought was that, if there's no law prohibiting an activity, then they can't boot you, right? I mean "doesn't it have to be written somewhere?? Otherwise it's arbitrary!! I mean, it would be like if a cop or gardener said 'you can't be in this park because you're wearing a purple shirt, so scram' " Here's the answer my lawyer friend gave, and I think it will apply to your situation too:

Any government employee, who is tasked with any form of enforcement, on any level, is given a BIG leeway/latitude of interpretation. And no, it does not need to be specifically written. Judges will usually always side with appointed powers. They can morph some other bologna like "don't disturb the earthworms", if they want, and their supervisors above them will most likely side with them, not you. To me, this still reaked of arbitrary enforcement, and nilly-willy interpretations. So he explained it like this: If there were a rule in a park that said "no dog walking", and let's say you had a 3-legged dog and walked him there. When an officer attempts to give you a ticket, you point out: but officer, my dog only has 3 legs. Thus he HOPS, not WALKS. Therefore I wasn't in violation". You will loose that argument in front of a judge. Another example would be "But officer, I didn't violate the nudity laws, because I had one sock on. Therefore I wasn't technically nude"

So you see, laws and rules are purposefully written vaguely, so as to apply to a myriad of situations as they develop. They simply can list every single thing in the world that is dis-allowed. So you would probably loose to this guy (although you could certainly try to over-step him, but I suspect his superiors probably don't want to be bothered either).

This is exactly why I avoid parks during on-hours (ie.: if I see a particular park is having mowing or maintenance done on a certain day of the week, I pick another park for that day. And it's even gotten to the point where I just detect at odd hours (before 7am, after 5pm, Sunday afternoons, etc...) just to avoid busy-bodies to begin with.

 

[Silver Surfer]

He wants to know if you would "share" the finds with the city?
If he found a $20 bill while mowing, do you think he is going to turn that in?

LOL.... I should have asked him that, if I would have thought of it...

 

[Silver Surfer]

I see you have an "honorable mention" award... Do you have the ability to copy the whole thread in which you were awarded this?
THAT will be useful later.

Yeah I can, and that is a great idea! If/when I have a meeting with them, I will be sure to take that with me... Lost ring returned after 6 yrs...

 

[Silver Surfer]

This is exactly why I avoid parks during on-hours (ie.: if I see a particular park is having mowing or maintenance done on a certain day of the week, I pick another park for that day. And it's even gotten to the point where I just detect at odd hours (before 7am, after 5pm, Sunday afternoons, etc...) just to avoid busy-bodies to begin with.

For most of these guys, they are there all the time (at least one or two of them)... Yeah, going before say 7am would be a great idea, but it's kind of late now..
I also have to slightly disagree with your post on a couple points.. First, there are posted "Rules" at this park in several places.. No alcohol, no dogs allowed, etc...
MD'ing is a SPECIFIC activity.. When they re-seed a field, they post "No playing on the field" signs as to protect the newly seeded grass.. IMHO, his attitude would be no different than if I liked to "crazy dance", like some of the stuff I saw in california.. It doesnt do any more harm to the grounds than playing soccer does.. But lets say the dude doesnt like my dancing, thinks I am a fairy, or what have you, and tells me "you cant do that here"... You really think they could do that and get away with it?
Now if they adopt a rule, law, or ordinance stating "only soccer playing allowed on this field", then it would pretty well cover it..
You couldnt walk, dance, frisbee toss, practice your golf swing, etc., on that field.. It clearly says "Soccer only"...
But, I digress that it is as simple as them getting together with this guy, siding with him, and then adopting a "NO MD'ING ALLOWED ON ANY CITY PROPERTY" that would cover it completely, and that is what I want to avoid...
Working in the ER (maybe a bit different, but the same gist), I got really tired of cell phones always going off... Annoying, distracting, etc... I started telling people "you have to turn your cell phone off in here".... Someone complained that there was no sign indicating that, and my manager reluctantly agreed with their side.. I also understood it, as I was making the rule due to the fact I didnt like it.. Pretty soon though, the board adopted the rule, signs were made, and then it was a simple matter of pointing to the sign and saying "sorry, you will have to turn that off"... No one complained...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

silver surfer, as you hint at, you may just in fact get a rule written, "to address your pressing issue", if you complain or appeal, etc... So once again, a reason to avoid contact and be discreet, from the git-go. But as you say, that's a little too late now

As for your stance that there needs to be a specific prohibition, otherwise a booting is arbitrary, you say: " ...MD'ing is a SPECIFIC activity " Yeah, sure. A specific activity. So what? It's a "specific activity for which they can say you're bothering the earthworms" if they want to. And who's going to win that debate? Even if you had a team of scientists showing you won't harm the earthworms, leave any marks, harm the wires, etc.. etc... unfortunately image is everything, and the mere fact you had so much a screwdriver to only probe and get 1" deep coins, you will probably loose. Because image is everything, and reality is meaningless, unfortunately.

You gotta be careful with this, because you may just end up wishing you'd avoided just this one park worker in the future, or just this one park, etc... I heard a true story of a guy, in a particular mid-western state, that got booted from a state park. The gardener or ranger would only tell him "because I said so". The hunter went home, studied all the state park rules for his state, and found out that the guy was bogus, and that there really wasn't, in fact, any rules prohibiting detecting at his state's parks land. While he was studying the legality of the matter, he discovered that a neighboring state's park's dept actually had wording that specifically allowed metal detecting (albeit perhaps only on sandy beaches, or non-historic monuments, or whatever). The guy thought "wouldn't it be cool to have such wording in my state, so I wouldn't be at the whims of yahoo ranger's interpretations?" So he set about petitioning to the highest levels in his state's park dept. system, objecting to his booting, and suggesting they adopt a system like the neighboring state had.

Despite his letter writing campaign, he never got any replies After a few months, he went detecting at a different state park, where he'd never had any problems before. Lo and behold he got booted now from this one too! When he asks the guy "buy why?" the worker pulls out a department memo, that had just been handed down to all the individual state parks, to "be on the lookout" for metal detectors, as this activity was not allowed". As the guy looked down at the memo the guy was showing him, guess who is was signed by?? The very same dept. head in the head offices, that he'd been petitioning!! True story! See? The guy went away wishing he'd left good enough alone, and just avoided just that one park, or just that one worker's shift.

So you gotta be real careful with this. If it were me, I'd just wait a few months (till he forgets about it, or is transfered to other departments, etc....), and return at a more discreet time (ie.: before 7am, after 5pm, etc....) But that's just me. :P

 

[liftloop]

It must of been a guy with a mine lab who cut the line ,his detector told him it was silver.

 

[Arid-Zone-A-seeker]

This is Still America, you have a right question authority, go to his boss, in a business suit, with photos and your junk finds, Explain, and demonstrate your Hobby. Even if you go all the way to court and loose, It is not only your rights, but others you are defending.
Or follow the jerk around and take pictures or video of every time he is not doing his job. And going #1 in the trees, and harassing the young girls. You can dress like a homeless person for this one.
Go to where the electricity was dug up, Is it secondary voltage or primary voltage, if is was not buried deep it is probably not up to code, dig it up your self and then sue the city for a hazard cause you got shocked, and it could have been a child,,,,
Or you could just take up Frisbee golf.

 

[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

If Lawn Mower Man saw a $20.00 bill he would be too lazy to pick it up and just shred it up with his mower.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Called the Mayor this morning and left him a message.. He called me back within 10 minutes and was very friendly... Busy today, asked if we could just talk over the phone... I explained to him that I wanted to meet in person "some things just cant be described over the phone"... He agreed to meet me at 10 am tomorrow morning.. I will take the info about the returned ring, my tools and detector, and the 30+ lbs of slaw and trash I have accumulated since September... I plan on cutting a plug for him in the front lawn of the City building to impress him on how no damage, and often no proof of disturbing the ground, is the norm...
Wish me luck, and I will post tomorrow after the meeting.. He sure was a jovial ol' fella on the phone...

 

[liftloop]

I hope thing go good for you, bring an exstra detector just in case he wants to give it a wirl.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Just returned from the meeting with the Mayor... Very pleasant man, enthusiastic about the hobby and had lot's of questions.. I explained to him what I do, and how I do it. He agreed with me that there is no way one could cut a "main line" with my lesche and said "I dont even know if you could do it with a shovel"..
He called the chief of police and asked if there were any laws forbidding MD'ing on ANY city property, the Chief laughed and said "not a one"...
He then called the Grounds manager and then it got interesting. Seems he has had a lot of complaints about this guys "attitude", and although the manager had told me "the mayor is my boss, you have a problem with my rules you need to take it up with him", the mayor kind of tippy-toed around this guy and kept explaining that there was no rule or law that allowed him to keep me from MD'ing in the park.... I could tell listening to the conversation that the manager was angry and arguing with the mayor. He finally told the manager that if I were digging near some wires, that he had no problem with me being asked not to dig around the wires, but "other than that, he has a right to detect in the park, or anywhere on city property for that matter"...
He then ended the conversation with the manager, gave me his card, and said "if you have any problems with anyone, just give them this card and tell them to talk to me"..
I then told him that I feared this guy would bring it up at a council meeting, and try to get a rule implemented.. "Well, if he does, I can tell you that I wont vote for it, and I think I can say that after talking to you, I could convince the others not to vote for it either"...
We said our goodbyes, and I told him that if he ever needed my services in finding anything, give me a call. "I'll be sure to do that"..
Happy day for sure!! Victory for us MD'ers!

 

[truckinbutch]

Good deal
Jim

 

[GopherDaGold]

I think a vote is in order. Silver Searcher will become our new spokesperson,

 

[fng68]

Great Post Silver Surfer,

I'd be leary of the yoyo (maybe even his boss)at the park trying to set you up,or doing some damage and trying to blame it on a MD'er.
A guy like that can get vindictive, even worst.Give some people a little self-perceived power and they go goofy.Watch your back.Document.
CYA
But, it's a victory for our side. Good Job

Ron

 

[Silver Surfer]

Great Post Silver Surfer,

I'd be leary of the yoyo (maybe even his boss)at the park trying to set you up,or doing some damage and trying to blame it on a MD'er.
A guy like that can get vindictive, even worst.Give some people a little self-perceived power and they go goofy.Watch your back.Document.
CYA
But, it's a victory for our side. Good Job

Ron

No doubt.... I did tell the Mayor that I wasnt in a hurry to rush back to the park "and rub it in the guys face", and that I didnt hold anything against the guy. Your advice is sound, and I will have to be careful...
I would have liked to have given him an actual demonstration, but it has been POURING here all day, and I couldnt ask him to go out in that just to show him.. He got a very detailed description though. Oh, and I forgot to mention that he told me of a spot in town where they have a "bazaar" every saturday, and said "that might be a really good spot for you to hit on sunday morning"... That was great!
I am just happy that I stood up for my (our) rights, it is just too easy to try to avoid people like this, pretty soon, we would have nowhere to hunt...
Thanks for the support guys!

SS