Nobody thought to crack open the turtles, he he.
QUESTIONS RELATING TO LOST TREASURES AND GOLD MINES, ETC
- Thread starter TheHarleyMan2
- Start date
Oroblanco
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gollum said:
Why would you charge so much, for doing something you love? Is everything about dollar value amigo? It would be a good business for someone whom is retired, loves to tinker with electronics and has free time - this person could get them working for a few bucks and everyone is happy. I was not proposing it as a get-rich-quick scheme, that can only be done in the automobile trade.
Roy
Frankn
Gold Member
Oh yes there's treasure out there 'or was! I posted earlier that I was researching a train robbery in which $6000 in silver coins were lost. I located an old post that mentioned the robbery. I contacted the poster. He told me exactly where the spot was. The problem was he also told me that all of the coins had probably been found. Some searches turn out better than others. This was not one of them!
K
Kentucky Kache
Guest
Frankn said:
I would do further research to determine how probable it is that the coins have been located. Maybe, maybe not. Don't give up on a probably.
Oroblanco
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Hola amigos
This sounds very much like the Willcox (AZ) train robbery by the two bungling robbers Joe George and Grant Wheeler, in which they used sacks of Mexican silver pesos as counterweights to blow open the express car safe after two attempts failed to open it. Their third try blew the whole car to bits and spread pesos like shrapnel, there is one stuck in a piece of telegraph pole in one of the local museums there (or was when I visited) and a good many of them have indeed been recovered, however it is almost impossible to ever find them ALL when you have such an incident. That area is a dry lake-bed and the silver coins will sink in that soft stuff 'presto' and it is hard to find, all it takes is one rain shower to hide them.
I am speaking out of turn here as I really have no idea what train robbery Frankn is exactly referring to, just that it sounds like the Willcox robbery. Beth and I even went out to do some hunting for 'dobe dollars' from this robbery on a weekend a couple years ago, but didn't find any, which did not hinder us from having a great time.
Oroblanco
This sounds very much like the Willcox (AZ) train robbery by the two bungling robbers Joe George and Grant Wheeler, in which they used sacks of Mexican silver pesos as counterweights to blow open the express car safe after two attempts failed to open it. Their third try blew the whole car to bits and spread pesos like shrapnel, there is one stuck in a piece of telegraph pole in one of the local museums there (or was when I visited) and a good many of them have indeed been recovered, however it is almost impossible to ever find them ALL when you have such an incident. That area is a dry lake-bed and the silver coins will sink in that soft stuff 'presto' and it is hard to find, all it takes is one rain shower to hide them.
I am speaking out of turn here as I really have no idea what train robbery Frankn is exactly referring to, just that it sounds like the Willcox robbery. Beth and I even went out to do some hunting for 'dobe dollars' from this robbery on a weekend a couple years ago, but didn't find any, which did not hinder us from having a great time.
Oroblanco
the Idea these stories were Created to sell Books
& Magazines seems far fetched to me.
I Would guess most of them were told back when
the Incidents happened (Or were Rumored to
have Happened, in a few cases)
yes maybe a camp fire Tale or Bed time Story or
2 got mixed in, but I would guess most of
the tales are based on fact.
As far as the Theory that the magazines and books
all tell stories on land that can't be searched,
remember most of these stories were told
long before the Land was put off limits to Detecting.
& In some cases put off limits to treasure hunting because
of damage done to the property.
or at least imagined damage. Some people
actually think moving a large boulder
from it's natural position a foot away
is damage. and they act like
the world will end because of it.
The theory the US buys treasure Land to
keep us off, is intresting, I Never thought of that.
They did it with Gettysburg. Bought it
& Now call it Protected.
There may be something to that.
Anyway remember when many of
these stories started, it was in the 1800's.
& the Government wasn't in the habit
of Buying land and Posting Rules back then.
=================
Another thing Not only Stores can be changed ,
Locations can also.
Example ;
I live in Joliett, Keffers is one mile away
If somone buried a cache in Keffers in 1890
and the story was told, They may say
between 2 large rocks in Keffers.
If the story was told recently,
most Keffers residents would say between
2 Boulders in Joliett. They rarely
say they live in "Keffers" & If
they told the story to somone
a good Distance away they may
say 2 Boulders in "Tremont"
(The Post office town for the area)
and 4 miles away.
& many outsiders just call Us all
"Tremont"
add to that the 1700's Keffers Tavern
was somewhere here in Joliett.
and the Joliett Fire house is in Keffers
now add to this Many people travel here
to off Road at "Rausch Creek" Motor Sports.
Tell them the story & 10 years
from now they tell it to a Writer.
They may say "Rausch Creek"
If the Writer Researches "Rausch Creek"
he will find the town of "Rausch Creek"
that existed here is actually under interstate 81
since the early 1970's, & Near "Pine Grove"
the largest City in the area
Now say the story is told in a Magazine
20 years later.
Where would the 2 Boulders be ?
Keffers, Joliett,tremont, Under Interstae 81
near Pine Gove ? ?
All depends on which name pops into the Story Writers head
first.
Now it's between 2 Large rocks
another word Preferred by Writers
"Boulders"
?
?
?
Always try to Research
& Magazines seems far fetched to me.
I Would guess most of them were told back when
the Incidents happened (Or were Rumored to
have Happened, in a few cases)
yes maybe a camp fire Tale or Bed time Story or
2 got mixed in, but I would guess most of
the tales are based on fact.
As far as the Theory that the magazines and books
all tell stories on land that can't be searched,
remember most of these stories were told
long before the Land was put off limits to Detecting.
& In some cases put off limits to treasure hunting because
of damage done to the property.
or at least imagined damage. Some people
actually think moving a large boulder
from it's natural position a foot away
is damage. and they act like
the world will end because of it.
The theory the US buys treasure Land to
keep us off, is intresting, I Never thought of that.
They did it with Gettysburg. Bought it
& Now call it Protected.
There may be something to that.
Anyway remember when many of
these stories started, it was in the 1800's.
& the Government wasn't in the habit
of Buying land and Posting Rules back then.
=================
Another thing Not only Stores can be changed ,
Locations can also.
Example ;
I live in Joliett, Keffers is one mile away
If somone buried a cache in Keffers in 1890
and the story was told, They may say
between 2 large rocks in Keffers.
If the story was told recently,
most Keffers residents would say between
2 Boulders in Joliett. They rarely
say they live in "Keffers" & If
they told the story to somone
a good Distance away they may
say 2 Boulders in "Tremont"
(The Post office town for the area)
and 4 miles away.
& many outsiders just call Us all
"Tremont"
add to that the 1700's Keffers Tavern
was somewhere here in Joliett.
and the Joliett Fire house is in Keffers
now add to this Many people travel here
to off Road at "Rausch Creek" Motor Sports.
Tell them the story & 10 years
from now they tell it to a Writer.
They may say "Rausch Creek"
If the Writer Researches "Rausch Creek"
he will find the town of "Rausch Creek"
that existed here is actually under interstate 81
since the early 1970's, & Near "Pine Grove"
the largest City in the area
Now say the story is told in a Magazine
20 years later.
Where would the 2 Boulders be ?
Keffers, Joliett,tremont, Under Interstae 81
near Pine Gove ? ?
All depends on which name pops into the Story Writers head
first.
Now it's between 2 Large rocks
another word Preferred by Writers
"Boulders"
?
?
?
Always try to Research
Seamuss
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Jeff in PA, you have a lot of good points in your article.
The amount of treasure that was hidden, where and how it was hidden, and most of all how many times the story was told before it was printed can change the amount of treasure and location slightly. Stories of treasure can be factual and slighty altered from second and third hand information and still be accurate to be of interest to any treasure hunter willing to do their research.
The amount of treasure that was hidden, where and how it was hidden, and most of all how many times the story was told before it was printed can change the amount of treasure and location slightly. Stories of treasure can be factual and slighty altered from second and third hand information and still be accurate to be of interest to any treasure hunter willing to do their research.
Jeff should get a little banner for his post which describes in detail what can
happen on a cache hunt. Precise details make all the difference. Say a guy
goes to the location one time eight years ago and today tries to go back and
is unable to find it again. It happens all the time, places change gradually until
everything looks different.
happen on a cache hunt. Precise details make all the difference. Say a guy
goes to the location one time eight years ago and today tries to go back and
is unable to find it again. It happens all the time, places change gradually until
everything looks different.
Frankn
Gold Member
I don't want to leave anyone hanging. The train robbery was the Pa. event at Espe Gap. I have it from a reliable member that the site now lays at the end of a street and all or most of the coins have been found. Another factor is that the place was strip mined in the '70's. Winn some loose some!
Oroblanco
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Thanks Jeff, excellent post, and I do agree that the majority of the "treasure legends" are based on facts not whiskey. The 'divil' is in the details.
I don't understand the government practice of getting control of lands where relics, treasure etc are buried and close them off to metal detectors. If you have ever visited the Petersburg battlefield museum, you can get a look at what lies under the earth all over that place, it is almost incredible the amount of weapons, fired and un-fired ordnance, personal items etc that is still there - and apparently they think it is far better for ALL of that to simply dissolve into the earth rather than allow the public to find, recover, preserve and CHERISH those relics and artifacts. I wholly disagree on many grounds, and have written a fair number of letters over this problem without making any headway.
It is easy to become negative on all treasure stories if you judge by the type that gets passed around verbally at the campfires and saloons, for this 'venue' is where the greatest amount of distortion and plain lies are born and grow. Do the research amigos, find that documentation, yes collect those verbal stories, personal letters etc but they fall into a lessor class of evidence and you ought to keep that in mind when considering them. You will find that the phony stories can be proven false fairly easily.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
I don't understand the government practice of getting control of lands where relics, treasure etc are buried and close them off to metal detectors. If you have ever visited the Petersburg battlefield museum, you can get a look at what lies under the earth all over that place, it is almost incredible the amount of weapons, fired and un-fired ordnance, personal items etc that is still there - and apparently they think it is far better for ALL of that to simply dissolve into the earth rather than allow the public to find, recover, preserve and CHERISH those relics and artifacts. I wholly disagree on many grounds, and have written a fair number of letters over this problem without making any headway.
It is easy to become negative on all treasure stories if you judge by the type that gets passed around verbally at the campfires and saloons, for this 'venue' is where the greatest amount of distortion and plain lies are born and grow. Do the research amigos, find that documentation, yes collect those verbal stories, personal letters etc but they fall into a lessor class of evidence and you ought to keep that in mind when considering them. You will find that the phony stories can be proven false fairly easily.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Most of these stories did actually start out as a tale told by granpa or uncle around a campfire. Some were blown out of proportion, that is a fact. Many were only told to the immediate family, in hopes of one of them finding it. Although most believe these to be large caches, it is well known that the biggest money families had back then was when a cash crop such as tobacco was sold, or when cattle or other livestock was sold. Even then most families bartered instead of paying cash. The gov't took yup all gold coins in 1933, making it a crime to have gold,other than jewelry.Not everyone was in agreement with this practice and many such gold caches were hidden to escape prosecution. Some who buried these gold coins passed on before the ban was lifted and left the coins butried where they were.Some never trusted or told family memebers where they had buried these caches either. But for the most part, the largest amount of silver and silverplate, gold and other valuables such as watches and family jewels were buried during the civil war.Most wer either killed or were afraid to return to retrieve their valuables,as they decided it was better to live than to try and stay and fight or return to retrieve their valuables. Even if they had returned, the land was in such a torn up state that it would have been hard to determine where they had buried their valuables to begin with.Entire farms,cities, and neighborhoods were burned,ransacked and or destroyed.Sometimes entire cities would stach all their valuables in one place,so if anyone lived, someone could find them again.But entire cities vanished overnight,leaving little of what remained to recover their valuables.It is estimated that there are as many,if not more, coins in the ground,as there is in circulation.This probably holds true for silver and gold,also.Silver and gold is where you find it.Good Luck. rockhound
Oroblanco said:
Exactly.
They act like if Civil war relics Underground
are Disturbed we will Never Understand
or Remember What the civil war was.
And even under the rare chance they find
something that tells them what we understand about
the civil war all these years is wrong,
Do you think they would ever admit it
& Re Write the History of the Civil war ?
if those relics are removed
will History Repeat ?
I Think Not.
Lincoln's Dead
EagleDown
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I'm not positive, but I believe the advent of the Gov. taking lands that had treasures, or more specifically, rumors of treasure, began with the story of the Victoria Peak treasure. I remember (vaguely) a statement supposedly made by the widow of the original finder of the treasure, that when she finally got permission to enter the land to search, they found the tunnels or caves, just as her husband described.
But, even though her husband had pictures and bullion for proof of the treasure, the caves were empty.
There were also stories circulating that someone had seen lights in the vicinity, at the base of Victoria Peak, and when they sneaked up close enough to see what was going on, there was military "heavy equipment" apparently digging into the peak. According to the story, it was a couple of years later that the widow was given permission to go in and search.
Anyway, as with many stories I've researched over the years, things DO CHANGE. Not only the stories, but topography, foliage, trails, and even well traveled roads. Well, at least well traveled for the mid 1800's.
In Jan. 2010, I turned 74, and I have my own treasure stories that, as far as I know, I am the only one that has had personal experience with. Will I ever go out and find them? I doubt it! So, I'd like to pass some of these on. Since I've never allowed them to become "legends", where would the best section of the forum be to post them??
But, even though her husband had pictures and bullion for proof of the treasure, the caves were empty.
There were also stories circulating that someone had seen lights in the vicinity, at the base of Victoria Peak, and when they sneaked up close enough to see what was going on, there was military "heavy equipment" apparently digging into the peak. According to the story, it was a couple of years later that the widow was given permission to go in and search.
Anyway, as with many stories I've researched over the years, things DO CHANGE. Not only the stories, but topography, foliage, trails, and even well traveled roads. Well, at least well traveled for the mid 1800's.
In Jan. 2010, I turned 74, and I have my own treasure stories that, as far as I know, I am the only one that has had personal experience with. Will I ever go out and find them? I doubt it! So, I'd like to pass some of these on. Since I've never allowed them to become "legends", where would the best section of the forum be to post them??
Best place would be here
http://forum.treasurenet.com/locator
Choose the state the Treasure is in.
Then post under that states
Treasure Legends
http://forum.treasurenet.com/locator
Choose the state the Treasure is in.
Then post under that states
Treasure Legends
EagleDown
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jeff of pa said:
lastleg said:
Thanks Jeff,
That's where I'll go.
Minelab,
I starting running into a number of "lost treasures" in CA, while I was researching (and trying to locate) a well established lost treasure. I'm pretty sure I have it located, within a hundred yards or so. So, I'll also put that in, as it is based on fact, not rumors. A little research could tell a person pretty well where it is.
In any case, I'll be over in http://forum.treasurenet.com/locator/CA
Oroblanco
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Muchas gracias EagleDown, I look forward to reading more!
Oroblanco
PS - I know a lot of people doubt that any govt would be trying to grab treasures, but remember that "govt" is human beings just like all human beings, and some human beings have a strong GREED drive, and will use their power (in any way they can) to further their OWN goals which may or may not be what "We the People" desire. What ever happened to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" anyway - is "happiness" only allowed if it is what the scissorbills like to do? Sheesh.
Sorry about that, will get off the durned soapbox now before it lets go under my fat butt! 
Oroblanco
PS - I know a lot of people doubt that any govt would be trying to grab treasures, but remember that "govt" is human beings just like all human beings, and some human beings have a strong GREED drive, and will use their power (in any way they can) to further their OWN goals which may or may not be what "We the People" desire. What ever happened to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" anyway - is "happiness" only allowed if it is what the scissorbills like to do? Sheesh.
Sorry about that, will get off the durned soapbox now before it lets go under my fat butt!
OP
OP
TheHarleyMan2
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I know with such tales of treasures and many of them using cryptic signs, etc. I know that mainly about 30% maybe? Are or could be true. But I have read and searched up what I could as far as newspaper clippings on the few I investigated on. One has to think also back in those days either prior, during or even after the late 1800's.
Let's take several occasions for instance and think about each one.
Pretty much back in those days a lot of people did not have wealth, were poor and the population wasn't exploded like it is today.
Let's say that back in the 1700's there was gold, silver, and treasure that was mined, made, and transported over territories. With even the people, mostly slaves doing all the work, but lets take for instance the "man" in charge getting the gold, silver, or treasures for a kingdom or another country, etc. Now one has to place themselves during that time where one could be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and pretty much disappear as the population across the territories were very slim except for the Native American Indians. It would be easy to pay off the few soldiers, guards, etc, who protected the treasures and each one get a fair share and disappear so to speak being there was no identification like we have today except if someone recognized one another by visual means.
Now lets also look into the early to mid 1800's. Same thing, no identification and pretty much almost everyone being poor, territory not populated except for Native American Indians across the plains, etc. except the ones who had plantations in the South building their wealth or industrial age in the East. Now lets look at during the Civil War that gold and silver was shipped for Davis, and other treasure folklore or some other wealthy official or Union Army payroll. But lets think on all factors of shipments being done. I know there would be some honest people doing their job, but what about the ones who think that maybe, just maybe if they found a way to steal the gold, silver, or payroll shipment, they could head out West on uncharted territory and start a new life and be wealthy. Same thing with the guards for the gold and silver mine owners, Knowing they could pretty much change their whole life and pretty much give themselves a new name and wealth.
Could most of the stolen payroll, gold, and silver, treasures, etc. have been stolen so someone could start a new life and identity and be wealthy? I believe that many cases it is possible that some were an inside job so to speak having knowledge of shipments, etc. But some facts like the Confederate Soldiers coming across the Union Army shipping the loot and being taken split up and hidden and vice versa for later recovery.
Now the bank hold ups, etc. Now lets look at maybe the U.S. Marshals, Sheriffs, posse, etc, going after the bank robbers. How many would actually be honest if they caught the bad guy's then killed them and took the loot and brought it back to the bank or stay quite and keep the money for themselves and make claims they never found it?
I think with that being said that it is possible that many most likely kept their mouths shut kept the gold, silver, and money for their better life they could have rather than being poor or underpaid and turning it all back over.
I don't know, but I think that is just my 2 cents.
Now many of the gold mines, etc or were treasure is hidden. I think the government doesn't want to spend the money to find it and certainly don't want anyone else to find it and if they did, they would just take it all away claiming it belongs to them and that is mainly the reason most places where gold or treasure is hidden is on government land. But I also think a small portion of treasure tales place the treasures on government land so no one can really search to locate it to prove it is real or to prove it bogus.
If I was in the situation and was going after bank robbers, or maybe come across a payroll and had the opportunity to become some what wealthy and if I was tired of being poor. The question would be that, "If I could get away with it and maybe become somewhat wealthy, would I take the loot, payroll, or treasure and claim I did not find it or take part with a small band of fellow people who felt the same and take it, split it up and start a new identity and life out West?"
We all want to be wealthy and have money to buy whatever we want. No one wants to be poor. But one has to think about the conditions, places, and times of those days on what someone would actually do as far as a mindest.
Let's take several occasions for instance and think about each one.
Pretty much back in those days a lot of people did not have wealth, were poor and the population wasn't exploded like it is today.
Let's say that back in the 1700's there was gold, silver, and treasure that was mined, made, and transported over territories. With even the people, mostly slaves doing all the work, but lets take for instance the "man" in charge getting the gold, silver, or treasures for a kingdom or another country, etc. Now one has to place themselves during that time where one could be wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and pretty much disappear as the population across the territories were very slim except for the Native American Indians. It would be easy to pay off the few soldiers, guards, etc, who protected the treasures and each one get a fair share and disappear so to speak being there was no identification like we have today except if someone recognized one another by visual means.
Now lets also look into the early to mid 1800's. Same thing, no identification and pretty much almost everyone being poor, territory not populated except for Native American Indians across the plains, etc. except the ones who had plantations in the South building their wealth or industrial age in the East. Now lets look at during the Civil War that gold and silver was shipped for Davis, and other treasure folklore or some other wealthy official or Union Army payroll. But lets think on all factors of shipments being done. I know there would be some honest people doing their job, but what about the ones who think that maybe, just maybe if they found a way to steal the gold, silver, or payroll shipment, they could head out West on uncharted territory and start a new life and be wealthy. Same thing with the guards for the gold and silver mine owners, Knowing they could pretty much change their whole life and pretty much give themselves a new name and wealth.
Could most of the stolen payroll, gold, and silver, treasures, etc. have been stolen so someone could start a new life and identity and be wealthy? I believe that many cases it is possible that some were an inside job so to speak having knowledge of shipments, etc. But some facts like the Confederate Soldiers coming across the Union Army shipping the loot and being taken split up and hidden and vice versa for later recovery.
Now the bank hold ups, etc. Now lets look at maybe the U.S. Marshals, Sheriffs, posse, etc, going after the bank robbers. How many would actually be honest if they caught the bad guy's then killed them and took the loot and brought it back to the bank or stay quite and keep the money for themselves and make claims they never found it?
I think with that being said that it is possible that many most likely kept their mouths shut kept the gold, silver, and money for their better life they could have rather than being poor or underpaid and turning it all back over.
I don't know, but I think that is just my 2 cents.
Now many of the gold mines, etc or were treasure is hidden. I think the government doesn't want to spend the money to find it and certainly don't want anyone else to find it and if they did, they would just take it all away claiming it belongs to them and that is mainly the reason most places where gold or treasure is hidden is on government land. But I also think a small portion of treasure tales place the treasures on government land so no one can really search to locate it to prove it is real or to prove it bogus.
If I was in the situation and was going after bank robbers, or maybe come across a payroll and had the opportunity to become some what wealthy and if I was tired of being poor. The question would be that, "If I could get away with it and maybe become somewhat wealthy, would I take the loot, payroll, or treasure and claim I did not find it or take part with a small band of fellow people who felt the same and take it, split it up and start a new identity and life out West?"
We all want to be wealthy and have money to buy whatever we want. No one wants to be poor. But one has to think about the conditions, places, and times of those days on what someone would actually do as far as a mindest.
bigscoop
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Lost treasure tales are very inspiring, even motivating, that's why so many of them survive the test of time despite of the lack of documentation and facts. It's often ironic that the very absence of truth serves to inspire a legend's continued existence. The one's that get me are the huge money legends, seems someone always knows exactly where it is but they just can't get to it for one reason or another, as if a documented and established huge treasure trove of that magnitude wouldn't be the focus every high dollar, high tech, politically influential professional interest out there. Yet here's this one guy with limited means and he's been right on top of it for years.....and years.....and years. And I suppose, someday he'll die and he'll take that secret with him to his grave. Some of these treasure legends may exist but for the most part I think the vast majority of them are just unfounded "human phenomenon" perhaps built upon from a single event, a distortion of fact, or a simple tall tale from long ago. There were a hundred people working these mines or working to hide these vast treasure loads, and yet none of them ever spoke of it, returned to it, or were able to relocate the exact location of this long lived huge operation in a geographical region where they spent a great deal of time? And god forbid they ever put it's exact location on pen & paper in anything other then cryptic code or mysteries drawings with undefinable landmarks or accurate coordinates. And yet, there are a few out there that I do believe might still exist, or may have existed at some reasonable level in their time. But my feeling, (as far as the bigger treasure legends go anyway) that this list is very, very, small.
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