Did you leave the FMDAC?

[OutBack Duo]

Federation of Metal Detector and Archaeological Clubs (FMDAC)

I have talked to quite a few people who have left the FMDAC for one reason or another. I want to let everyone know who has left the FMDAC that I am running for National President of the FMDAC this year and I want to hear from you. I want to hear what issues you have had and why you left. I want to know what I can do or change to make you want to come back. My election platform (the reason I am running) is to ensure 2 way communications between the FMDAC National Officers, Manufacturers, Clubs, Online Groups and Media and to grow our hobby. There are so many organizations and industries pertaining to our hobby and there is no reason we can't all talk and work together for the same goals. If I am elected President of the FMDAC I am going to push for a partnership between the Manufacturers, Treasure Hunting Magazines, Clubs, and Online Forums.

Please feel free to contact me through this post or my email address [email protected]

We all have so much in common we should all be working together and communicating.

Thanks!

Don Vickers
President
FMDAC/SW Chapter

 

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[bigscoop]

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that most MDers do what they do for personal gain and there is no provision that provides that in the "togetherness" you speak of. The laws need to be changed, say similar to those in place in the UK. Without that change you will never get the MDing and treasure hunting community involved to the degree that you desire. Though, as unlikely as it is, the thought of putting all that research, effort, expense and energy into making a discovery only to see it all taken away is enough to keep most MDer's completely away from any involvement with the archeological community. Change those laws and you'll get overwhelmed with interest and involvement, without those changes the togetherness you speak of is destined to fall way short of your expectations because there's no way it can exist. There are a lot of discoveries yet to be made in this country, but as the current laws stand, what are the "unprofessional" risk of making and announcing those discoveries? Most recently to mind, the Crisp Roman coin discovery in the UK, if that had taken place in this country Crisp would stand to lose all of it without any reward and he could possibly even face persecution and prosecution. Where is the "togetherness" in that? You need to get the Government and archeological community to commit first, not the MDers and treasure hunting community. Just my unprofessional opinion.

 

[OutBack Duo]

BigScoop, I appreciate your reply, I see where you are coming from but the way I see it is the Government and archeological community has no reason to change or even hear our case because we are nothing more than a bunch of small insignificant voices. We need to be united and speak with one voice and the more hobbyists we have standing behind us the louder and stronger our one voice will be.

 

[bigscoop]

BigScoop, I appreciate your reply, I see where you are coming from but the way I see it is the Government and archeological community has no reason to change or even hear our case because we are nothing more than a bunch of small insignificant voices. We need to be united and speak with one voice and the more hobbyists we have standing behind us the louder and stronger our one voice will be.

I can appreciate your position and effort, I really do, but I think the louder this voice gets the more resistence it will cause. The archeological community was the main driving force and voice in support of the restrictions we face today, so what really needs to happen first is that the archeological community needs to go to the government and they need to work to reverse those restrictions. Because they have made no effort to do this first then it serves as a "very clearly" signal that they do not want any of the togetherness you speak of. If I react poorly and smack you and instill a level of fear and untrust upon you then it's up to me to fix things and to try to make things right again, it is not up to you make further restitution with me. Clearly, the archeological community does not want change, they do however, want more avenues that will better serve their own self centered, and self serving agendas. All the FMDAC is doing is helping them to achieve that goal. It's all free labor, input, and support for them, which is the only reason they support it and take part in it. The FMDAC is actually helping them to continue their fight against us. PERIOD! What have they done on our behalf? Have they petitioned for anything that supports us in our quest? If so, please share that information and perhaps then you can possibly start to gain some ground with the MDing and treasure hunting community. I fear, my friend, you might buying into something that will only serve to place further restrictions upon us.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The FMDAC (or anything that tries to do what it has done/is doing) is a difficult line-to-walk. Because the minute md'rs read of these efforts, and the scary stories (ie.: bootings, rules, etc...) that caused them, what's the knee-jerk reaction? It's: "oh no, I wonder if there are rules in my area, I might be in some sort of trouble, I better start asking permission 'just to be safe'" And when that happens, it merely becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, where more "no's" are passed down, to "address this pressing issue".

It's like a vicious circle of a catch-22. You can't blame someone for wanting to fight what seems arbitrary and un-just, right? But this "awareness" just seems to spiral into more such "no's".

I say this having come from a time before any FMDAC existed, to the times when it was in its infancy, with some of their very first periodicals/mailers. I still recall sitting in our club meetings in the early or mid 1980's, with 25 or so other md'rs, as various endevours of the FMDAC were read aloud to the group-at-large. Stories like tickets, bootings, and such were cited, along with the pushes for petitioning letters, etc... The look of worry in the room, from folks probably never thought of such things (as they were from seemingly far away places) is still clear in my memory. Ie.: "we better hurry, and do something, contribute $$, send letters, etc... lest this happen in our area too. "

But what happened next, I can't help but think was from this very same psychology: some of these same skittish folk, when they'd go to travel (or .... even to hunt our OWN city parks in our own cities) would go to city hall and ask "is it ok?" I mean, afterall, you can't argue with the scary stories that just got read to you from the FMDAC mailers, can you? And oddly, they sometimes got "no's", where no one had ever had a problem before. One time, for example, a person objected to a coin shown at one of our monthly show-&-tells, because ........ as he told the finder ..... "I thought detecting wasn't allowed there?". To that, several of us turned, looked at him, and asked "since when? who told you this?" Turns out, he'd gone down to city hall, ...... and asked! Doh! What's odd, is it had never occured to any of us, that you needed to "ask", to begin with. Md'ing city parks here had simply gone on for as long as anyone remembered. Therefore we figured he just got some desk-bound clerk, whose image was "geeks with shovels". We weren't going to let that stop us from detecting (as obviously, no one really cared).

I began to wonder if the same psychology isn't happening nationwide. Ie.: people read these scary stories, and then somehow think, that they're in a hobby that is inherently wrong, or needs sanction, etc.... This only becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy after that, it seems.

So it's a catch-22: You go to "fight" isolated incidents, which only fuels the fire to "bring attention" to these fights. Other cities, and archies make note of this (because we make a big stink) and presto, they too enact things. It's almost as if, we're better off NOT drawing attention to ourselves, and isolated incidents. But I understand that if we did that, that there would be isolated pockets of in-justice, I suppose

All I can say is, if there is SOME way the FMDAC can work to combat this feeling of getting the skittish to run looking for sanctions, permissions, etc.. where none was needed (lest they merely get rules written to address their "pressing issue"). In the code of ethics, for instance, can it be clarified somehow, that where it says that it is the md'rs responsibility to "know the law", that this does NOT mean the same thing as "asking permission"? And further it by saying that if the law is silent on the issue, ... and there is no specific prohibition, then SO BE IT. That becomes implied consent that it is OK, unless specifically prohibited.

I don't envy your job. There is no easy way to convey this, because people will always go by fear-factors, caution-levels, etc.... And there is no way to convey that in a simple printed sentence or two.

 

[jeff of pa]

Tom_in_CA said it very well.

Don't stick your hand in front of
the Lions Mouth unless you want it Bit !

However
in the case of Pending Legislation
I Believe a Larger voice like the FMDAC can Help,
with a Higher Membership base

 

[bigscoop]

I understand Tom_in_Ca's view, in fact there is a lot of truth in what he says. But I wasn't speaking in terms of "city parks" or public beaches, or even very small and insignificant finds on state land. No one cares too much about a few old coins, a few relics, or a few items of jewelry. What I am referring to are the larger discovers and those that are yet to be made. Right now you have serious hobbiest combing the state controlled deserts and mountains in places like Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, in search of the big one, and in just about every other state as well. Naturally occurring mineral deposits aside, I often wonder if these people have any idea of the legal issues that arise and come into play if they ever find what they're looking for? These are the laws I'm referring to, not the "smaller municiple laws" that govern city parks, etc. So just out of curiosity, let me ask the following:

Let's say a guy is on state land and all his personal investment, research and effort, he actually finds that historical hoard of gold coins or gold bars he's been seeking, and let's assume the state is notified of what he has found. What do you think happens then? Do you think the honest finder will get rewarded for his efforts? Can anyone cite me a case in the US that ended in such a way in recnet years? Will the archeological and historical communities come running to his assistence with open arms? Or, will they immediately move to confiscate his discovery and present him with a whole array of legal obstacles? What do you think the offical response is going to be? What has it been?

I wish, and I really do, that a larger voice would serve the purpose the way you feel it might. But until the day that I actually see these "governing bodies" petitioning for change, then I will use the present circumstances and laws and the driving forces that caused them to pass judgement. I appreciate and support what they do as a profession, but I do not appreciate what they have done for my hobby and interest.

 

[Dick Stout]

"I say this having come from a time before any FMDAC existed, to the times when it was in its infancy, with some of their very first periodicals/mailers. I still recall sitting in our club meetings in the early or mid 1980's, with 25 or so other md'rs, as various endevours of the FMDAC were read aloud to the group-at-large. Stories like tickets, bootings, and such were cited, along with the pushes for petitioning letters, etc... The look of worry in the room, from folks probably never thought of such things (as they were from seemingly far away places) is still clear in my memory. Ie.: "we better hurry, and do something, contribute $$, send letters, etc... lest this happen in our area too."Disseminate
Disseminate


Tom in California, I must take exception to this statement. I was the president of the FMDAC from it's inception to 1988, and typed, duplicated, and mailed out every single member club newsletter at that time. There was never the doom and gloom you offer up here. We had one problem with Fairmount Park in Philadelphia (largest city park in the US at the time), and we hired an attorney there and had it overturned quickly. As for "bootings, tickets, etc."....I know not of what you speak?

Our goal back then was to bring everyone together, hoping that eventually we would have a cohesive group that would speak for all detectorists across the country, nothing more. If you think that not talking about the threats we face today will make them go away I beg go to differ. That is exactly what our opponents are hoping for.

Whether or not you support the FMDAC, or the other similar groups is immaterial. What is important is that we find a way to come together, join as one, and make an our voices heard.

Please understand I am only stating this because it is important for all of us to become one. Please everyone, stop with the bickering, the north vs. the south, the east vs. the west, or the right vs. the left. All it does is hurt our effort.

Thanks for listening to MY opinion.

 

[allen]

No I never left it, because i've never heard of it !

 

[jeff of pa]

No I never left it, because i've never heard of it !

I still hear this alot
& Not just from Newbies
as you can Clearly See here.

This is one of your Main Problems.

I'm willing to Wager,
If you asked Most Newbies
Who heard of TreasureNet
&
Who heard of the FMDAC

More have heard of TreasureNet

Total Members here: 41,418 since the Beginning

How many in the Federation ?

Most Online here at one time: 5,278
What's the Federations Total online at one time ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Barnum, ouch :P :P We all appreciate what you did, in those early formative years. I don't envy your job one bit. And you're right: sitting around doing nothing also doesn't stop arbitrary laws either. But you have to agree, that the un-intended consequence of fighting them, does trickle down to people in other places, with no problems, thinking they should stop in and ask police, gardeners, desk-clerks at city hall, etc... "can I?" I just wish there were some way to stop that psychology from happening.

As to how many "scary stories" were in the mailers of those first few years, I dunno. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there prompts to write letters to join in solidarity for other states (or counties, or whatever)? And wasn't there reports of laws, whether enacted yet, or in the vote stages, or whatever? As for actual resulting tickets, arrests, confiscations, etc.... perhaps those were in editions later on? I dunno. I just recall that this was the first we'd ever thought of, or heard of, these things, was reading them there. (maybe there were some stories in the mag's too along about that time).

Anyhow, as I say, it's a catch-22. You certainly can't sit around and do nothing too, if we could have a collective voice, just as any other hobby or sport can have. The solution I see, is just to clarify what that "responsibility to know the law" clause means. It does not mean "go ask permission". And even the "always get permission" clause in the code, should be clarified to mean private property, not public property. For public property, it should be clear that if there are no specific prohibitions, then so be it.

Big-scoop, if these are the things you're worrying about, then the Fmdac is not going to be able to do anything about them. Because they are beyond the pale of both archaeological concerns, and md'ing as a hobby. They would apply to ANY one picking up a pretty rock, or eyeballing a ring on the sidewalk, etc...

You would be shocked if you knew how many laws we are probably in violation of, if you really wanted to worry long enough, and hard enough. The type "loot" things you're talking of, well of course the govt. can't let people run nilly willing strip-mining the mountains of natural or cultural resources. That has nothing to do with metal detecting. It's just the "no collecting" type rules that have been around forever. And this trickles down to even the smallest of items (jewelry, old coins, etc...) There are "no collecting" rules at ANY park, school, beach, etc.... They are there for obvious reasons: so people don't think they can back their truck up, and harvest the sod, mine beach sand for re-sale sand businesses, help themselves to the swing sets, etc.... And if you thought about it long enough and hard enough, the same laws would also prohibit your grade school daughter from taking home pretty sea shells, now wouldn't it? And if you asked a ranger, he'd be obliged to tell you that it's illegal for her to pick up that sea shell. But honestly, do you think anyone really cares? But the laws have to be written that way, otherwise it's the "camel's nose in the door" dilemna for those in enforcement. There is no way the FMDAC can fight this, because the obvious implication, if such laws were repealed, is that people can just back up their trucks to any national or state park, and have a field day.

There are also lost-&-found laws, that have applied values of as little as $250 or whatever, as the benchmark for where you are required to turn things in to the police dept. You wait 30 days, and if no one claims it, you get to keep it. And if its worth over a certain amount, the police are going to run a lost-&-found ad in the local paper. If no one claims it, and you come to get the item after 30 days, guess who pays the cost of the ad? YOU DO! (if you want the item). So yup, all those beach hunters on the beach-hunting "finds" forums, that routinely post their ring finds, are all violating the law. And once again, there is no way the FMDAC can fight something like this. Because in the eyes of law-enforcment, this would just be a field day for anyone scooping up cash behind an armored car door that accidentally swung open. Or thieves could just say "I found it", when caught with stolen property, etc...

So there is only so much the FMDAC can do, and I highly doubt they could get the national and state parks open to treasure-hunting for the "big one", or even "the little one". If you find the big one, your best bet is to stay mum.

 

[OutBack Duo]

Thank you Jeff, I appreciate your acknowledgment of strength in numbers.

Since I have been in the FMDAC I have only seen a defensive roll played. It is not like they are going out there looking for a fight. It happend in my community where out of the blue one of the local towns decided they didn't want guys with shovels digging up the parks. Our club notified the FMDAC and with their help we started a petition and with this in hand we attended the city council meeting and were able to convince them to invoke a permit system instead of banning our hobby all together. The permit is a pain but it is free and is good for 5 years. I would rather our hobby not be regulated but regulation is better than outlawing it.

I know of a lot of other stories where if it weren't for the FMDAC and their members stepping up to face the legislation our hobby would be restricted or banned in a lot more places.

 

[Dick Stout]

"Since I have been in the FMDAC I have only seen a defensive roll played. It is not like they are going out there looking for a fight."

Can you explain how they might go out there and look for a fight? Who might they take on?
And if you answer the Archeologists, how might they afford that?

 

[bigscoop]

Not bickering at all, may appear that way but I'm not, and I do appreciate all points of view on the subject.

One thing I have noticed since these post, is that the name itself, "Federation of Metal Detector and Archaeological Clubs (FMDAC)" should be recognized as simply an organization of hobbiest, it's not actually connected to, or a part of, or in direct support of, the professional archaeological community. I think a few may be misunderstanding that a bit. In my replies I did not mean to suggest that the FMDAC was an actual structure within that professional community. If I came off that way I apologize, nor did I mean to make it sound like I was directly attacking them, I wasn't and certainly didn't mean for it to sound that way, which I think, after a second reading, that perhaps it did. And as I stated before, I hope it works out for you the way you hope it can.

 

[Mark S.]

Bigscoop

"All the FMDAC is doing is helping them to achieve that goal. It's all free labor, input, and support for them, which is the only reason they support it and take part in it. The FMDAC is actually helping them to continue their fight against us. PERIOD! What have they done on our behalf? Have they petitioned for anything that supports us in our quest? If so, please share that information and perhaps then you can possibly start to gain some ground with the MDing and treasure hunting community."

Please explain what you mean by this. How is the FMDAC helping them? I do not get that statement at all. When we fight a bill backed and written by professional snob archaeologists how are we helping them to pass that bill?

As for what has been done. I wil recap just the last few years of what has and is being worked on/assisted with.

SC anti relic hunting bill
Wisconsin closure of state land
Wisconsin bill to permit detecting on state land
Louisville, KY park closures
KY bill to allow detecting on state land
KY permit bill for private property
NYC park closures
Overland Park, KS park closures
Clay County, FL park closures
TX bill to allow detecting in state parks
WA bill to open up more state land to detecting
WA anti dredging bill
WA permit bill for private property
CA dredge law
federal Cllean Water Restoration Act
federal National Landscape Conservation Act
federal Omnibus Lands bill
Changes to FL shipwreck salvage laws

There may be more that I am not recalling.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop

"All the FMDAC is doing is helping them to achieve that goal. It's all free labor, input, and support for them, which is the only reason they support it and take part in it. The FMDAC is actually helping them to continue their fight against us. PERIOD! What have they done on our behalf? Have they petitioned for anything that supports us in our quest? If so, please share that information and perhaps then you can possibly start to gain some ground with the MDing and treasure hunting community."

Please explain what you mean by this. How is the FMDAC helping them? I do not get that statement at all. When we fight a bill backed and written by professional snob archaeologists how are we helping them to pass that bill?

As for what has been done. I wil recap just the last few years of what has and is being worked on/assisted with.

SC anti relic hunting bill
Wisconsin closure of state land
Wisconsin bill to permit detecting on state land
Louisville, KY park closures
KY bill to allow detecting on state land
KY permit bill for private property
NYC park closures
Overland Park, KS park closures
Clay County, FL park closures
TX bill to allow detecting in state parks
WA bill to open up more state land to detecting
WA anti dredging bill
WA permit bill for private property
CA dredge law
federal Cllean Water Restoration Act
federal National Landscape Conservation Act
federal Omnibus Lands bill
Changes to FL shipwreck salvage laws

There may be more that I am not recalling.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, the FMDAC is "working on/assisted with" 18 bills, acts, laws. Which I believe is what I said, that, "the FMDAC is helping them to achieve that goal." Again, when I posted earlier I was addressing state lands, so some on your list do not apply. However, of those that do, tell me, in any of these assited efforts, is there any discussion in terms of "who will own the rights to valuable or historical discoveries? Will the "hobbiest" get to retain any portion of the value or any percentage of the items?" Or, will the state and the various governing bodies retain the right to claim all of it? What good is it to be able to MD state land for potentially historical of valuable man made items if you can't legally keep at least portion of the value of what you find? If the state and/or governing bodies benefit from such finds, shouldn't the finder? I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the togetherness here. So, if I'm understanding your post correctly, then yes, the FMDAC is helping them (assisting them) to achieve that goal. And "yes" I do understand the need for regulatory control concerning activities on state lands, that's pretty much a given.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Big-scoop, you say:

"who will own the rights to valuable or historical discoveries? Will the "hobbiest" get to retain any portion of the value or any percentage of the items?"

I answered this above (see above post within thread), but will do so again:

There is NOTHING that the FMDAC, or anyone, can do to change this. If you think you can, or should be able to, keep things you "find" (whether or not it's your hobby that you expended great efforts towards, or whatever), you are mistaken. Because to have any sort of "exceptions", etc... would be for the lawmakers and govt. to open a pandora's box. Imagine this: "I found this bundle of $100 bills on the public street [where an armored car's door accidentally swung open], can I keep it? After all, finders-keepers loosers-weepers". Or how about: "I'm going to help myself to these lovely looking rocks or flowers or whatever, for my hobby, that I'm finding at the state or national park, is that ok? Afterall, it's my hobby to which I expend great effort and time".

The govt. is tasked with maintaining the publically held lands. And the rules "have to start somewhere". So it's made simple with the "no disturbance" and "no collecting" and such. To think otherwise, and there would be nothing to stop anyone from enriching themselves "at the public's expense", for both natural, and man-made (cultural) resources. And if you think of it, this isn't just for bonanzas (ala mel fisher caliber stuff), but even down to silly things like a merc. dime or whatever. Does anyone really care if you found a merc. dime? OF COURSE NOT! But if you asked a ranger "can I keep this?" What do you think he would say? And if you think the FMDAC can get that changed, you are mistaken. To start to allow for the little things, much less the big things, is just messing around with the "line drawn in the sand", and will have un-ending implications for those that try to manage the parks and state land. Therefore, this hobby is sort of like nose-picking: As long as you're discreet, no one cares or notices. But if you really want to start worrying about what laws affect you (if you really got technical), you've picked the wrong hobby. That, or else you've got to start strictly hunting private land. There is absolutely no public park, school, etc... where if you asked "can I harvest cultural historic goodies for my own personal enjoyment, on your public land?" that you can get a "yes" from. Naturally they would all say "No, you have to turn it in", blah blah blah.

The same goes, not only for preservation, control, etc... but for the simple fact of lost-&-found laws (as I stated above). Besides the items of cultural significance belonging to the public entity to begin with, the item (ring, coin, etc...) still belongs to the person who lost it, TO BEGIN WITH! For example: say that you are a coin -collector. Let's say your kid takes some of your coins to his grade school for show-&-tell. Let's say he looses your choice silver dollars in the sand box. Along comes Joe-Blow with a metal detector and finds them. He can try to say "the face value is $1, so therefore I didn't have to comply with the lost-&-found laws, which have values of $250 [or whatever] as their benchmark". Through a turn of events, you learn that a local md'r "joe blow" has found your coins. But he refuses to return them to you. Who do you think is going to win that case, when it comes before a judge? Naturally the metal detector hobbyist is going to loose. And if he says "but your honor, I thought they were lost 100+ yrs. ago, by virtue of their age", the judge will tell you that the law makes no distinction on second guessing the age of loss.

This all came to light, to me, when I was sort of "read the riot act" for placing a "found prescription glasses" ad on craigslist, after finding them on the beach. A police officer responded the ad, to see if they matched a person, who had come into the police dept, and reported lost prescription glasses on that beach. The officer, in that email, advised me that "In the future, please bring all such finds and valuables into the police dept., TO BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE LAW" (no kidding! this really happened!). So I researched what "law" she was talking about, and sure enough, the law is there that you simply can't keep things you find, when they are above a certain dollar amount. And notice that in the case of these glasses, they obviously had an intrinsic value of practically nothing (except to the person to whom they were prescribed). So, for example. although a gold band may only have a melt value of perhaps $80, I suppose we have to use the jewelry store counter value ($300 or whatever), when determining the benchmark?

It gets downright silly! but you can see the implications if various rules were not in place (people caught with stolen merchandise would always just claim "I found it", etc...). So no lobbying agency will be able to change this.

 

[bigscoop]

Big-scoop, you say:

"who will own the rights to valuable or historical discoveries? Will the "hobbiest" get to retain any portion of the value or any percentage of the items?"

I answered this above (see above post within thread), but will do so again:

There is NOTHING that the FMDAC, or anyone, can do to change this. If you think you can, or should be able to, keep things you "find" (whether or not it's your hobby that you expended great efforts towards, or whatever), you are mistaken. Because to have any sort of "exceptions", etc... would be for the lawmakers and govt. to open a pandora's box. Imagine this: "I found this bundle of $100 bills on the public street [where an armored car's door accidentally swung open], can I keep it? After all, finders-keepers loosers-weepers". Or how about: "I'm going to help myself to these lovely looking rocks or flowers or whatever, for my hobby, that I'm finding at the state or national park, is that ok? Afterall, it's my hobby to which I expend great effort and time".

The govt. is tasked with maintaining the publically held lands. And the rules "have to start somewhere". So it's made simple with the "no disturbance" and "no collecting" and such. To think otherwise, and there would be nothing to stop anyone from enriching themselves "at the public's expense", for both natural, and man-made (cultural) resources. And if you think of it, this isn't just for bonanzas (ala mel fisher caliber stuff), but even down to silly things like a merc. dime or whatever. Does anyone really care if you found a merc. dime? OF COURSE NOT! But if you asked a ranger "can I keep this?" What do you think he would say? And if you think the FMDAC can get that changed, you are mistaken. To start to allow for the little things, much less the big things, is just messing around with the "line drawn in the sand", and will have un-ending implications for those that try to manage the parks and state land. Therefore, this hobby is sort of like nose-picking: As long as you're discreet, no one cares or notices. But if you really want to start worrying about what laws affect you (if you really got technical), you've picked the wrong hobby. That, or else you've got to start strictly hunting private land. There is absolutely no public park, school, etc... where if you asked "can I harvest cultural historic goodies for my own personal enjoyment, on your public land?" that you can get a "yes" from. Naturally they would all say "No, you have to turn it in", blah blah blah.

The same goes, not only for preservation, control, etc... but for the simple fact of lost-&-found laws (as I stated above). Besides the items of cultural significance belonging to the public entity to begin with, the item (ring, coin, etc...) still belongs to the person who lost it, TO BEGIN WITH! For example: say that you are a coin -collector. Let's say your kid takes some of your coins to his grade school for show-&-tell. Let's say he looses your choice silver dollars in the sand box. Along comes Joe-Blow with a metal detector and finds them. He can try to say "the face value is $1, so therefore I didn't have to comply with the lost-&-found laws, which have values of $250 [or whatever] as their benchmark". Through a turn of events, you learn that a local md'r "joe blow" has found your coins. But he refuses to return them to you. Who do you think is going to win that case, when it comes before a judge? Naturally the metal detector hobbyist is going to loose. And if he says "but your honor, I thought they were lost 100+ yrs. ago, by virtue of their age", the judge will tell you that the law makes no distinction on second guessing the age of loss.

This all came to light, to me, when I was sort of "read the riot act" for placing a "found prescription glasses" ad on craigslist, after finding them on the beach. A police officer responded the ad, to see if they matched a person, who had come into the police dept, and reported lost prescription glasses on that beach. The officer, in that email, advised me that "In the future, please bring all such finds and valuables into the police dept., TO BE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE LAW" (no kidding! this really happened!). So I researched what "law" she was talking about, and sure enough, the law is there that you simply can't keep things you find, when they are above a certain dollar amount. And notice that in the case of these glasses, they obviously had an intrinsic value of practically nothing (except to the person to whom they were prescribed). So, for example. although a gold band may only have a melt value of perhaps $80, I suppose we have to use the jewelry store counter value ($300 or whatever), when determining the benchmark?

It gets downright silly! but you can see the implications if various rules were not in place (people caught with stolen merchandise would always just claim "I found it", etc...). So no lobbying agency will be able to change this.

Tom,
There are certain laws that regulate the use of metal detectors and treasure hunting, and I assure you, I understand many of those laws. Flowers, rocks, etc., do not fall within the scope of metal detecting. And as I stated before, I understand the need for regulatory controls governing all activities on state lands. In fact, I am personally happy with many of them and even support them. There seems to be some confusion there. "Mumm is the word"....is also fully understood. So let me try this a different way.

Within these forums and others there are many, many good people who have worked hard and invested much time and money in pursuit of their dream, however likely or unlikely it may be. In the event they should ever find what they are pursuing then that discovery was simple result of their individual pursuit and effort. I am of the mind, and always have been, that they should be permitted to reap some reward for their endless and pianstaking efforts, in fact, it should even be a guarantee. Without their efforts, and without the efforts of many before them, we would not have many of the national and state treasures we have today. In this country we have failed to realize that a large percentage of advances and discoveries have come from the common man, men without PHD's and formal college educations. When Jefferson purchased that vast land in the west he was smart enough to recognize the value that common men would play in the advancement of that wilderness and he even encouraged it, and as a result of his insight many advancements and discoveries were made on the backs of the private sector and the formally uneducated populous. I oppose any law that "prevents" these men same men today this same right of discovery, and you should too. I'm not saying it shouldn't be regulated because obviously it must be. However, I will not support any system that outright opposes the right of discovery or outright steals that discovery from the finder without regard or reward. If not for their efforts it might have never been discovered for "everyone's" benefit. These are the laws and regulations and acts that I so strongly oppose, hence I oppose any form of governing body or group that helps to create them. This will never change within me. I support the notion of the pursuit of discovery and just reward, the archaeological community and historical community opposes it, so I will never support them until they do. I want people, all people, to retain the right to pursue their dreams and just reward. I strongly believe in this right and I will always strongly oppose any who do not. Have I explained my position on this subject better? I hope so, but if not it is the best I can do...................Scoop
PS: Good hunting! Live the adventure, live your dreams!

 

[Mark S.]

Bigscoop I am totally lost on your response to my post. When we assist with a bill to allow metal detecting on state land that is now closed then how are we helping the archaeologists? When we fight a bill that would require a permit from the state to dig a relic on private property then how are we helping them? When we are petitioning "city hall" to reopen parks that were closed to detecting then how are we helping them? When we are contacting the governor of a state to veto a bill that would virtually outlaw dredging then how are we helping them?

 

[civil war hunter]

I left because the people where bigger nerds than I was.. No not really, never joined.. That wazz funny huh? I think I would be the nerdiest.