October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. American History

[hammered]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

No offense to 4-H for the sidetrack. I read the whole thing and liked it. Old battle plans and how they worked or failed is always interesting. No matter what war.

It would be fun to detect around that oak tree stump.

OT

I agree with OT, you might find the hatchet that was buried sometime ago. Great bit of history though, thanks mate .

hammered

ps. your parcel leaves Monday.

 

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[Skillets]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

Incredible history lesson and pictures, thanks 4H

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

One of the things that has been overlooked is the fact that Brit military bureaucracy contributed to Ferguson's demise and the outcome of the battle . Re : the Ferguson rifle ; crates of which were warehoused in Baltimore(I think) instead of being issued to his troops because his superiors resisted change .
Had they had the rifle he invented we might still be singing "God Save The Queen".

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

Don't forget the losing side were Americans too!
Civil wars are always bad and it's a shame when men from the same country fight each other for what they believe is right.(and yes i know this wasn't a civil war..but as there was only 1 Brit amongst both sides...that's how i see this battle.)
Nothing to be "proud" about in this one in my opinion.

Never said I was proud of war, It's just that it's old history for America. I find history, especially in my own State fascinating.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

I put a lot of work into this thread guys.

**This thread is intended for education purposes only.
Not to debate whether war is right, or wrong. Or to suggest I dislike British people. Thanks!

Please don't distract the original message. (Significant American History)

If you must respond, please respond with, Hey! Nice pics Mike!
or, Wow Very interesting!


Thanks

 

[Cool Hand Fluke]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

Not a Civil War but a revolution to overthrow a government that overburdened its citizens with unfair taxes (sound familiar?).
Dano and Old Town-Guess it all depends on what side you would have chosen to be on as to whether you would be proud or not.

"The tree of liberty must be fertilized with the blood of patriots or the blood of traitors" -Thomas Jefferson

 

[TerryC]

Mike (4H) Give me a PM. I wish to reduce my inventory of metal detectors (9). I will GIVE AWAY 3 to your bunch of kids. Perfectly good machines. PM me please. TTC

 

[BosnMate]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

One of the things that has been overlooked is the fact that Brit military bureaucracy contributed to Ferguson's demise and the outcome of the battle . Re : the Ferguson rifle ; crates of which were warehoused in Baltimore(I think) instead of being issued to his troops because his superiors resisted change .
Had they had the rifle he invented we might still be singing "God Save The Queen".

The Ferguson rifle was a flintlock breech loader, I believe the first ever invented. The trigger guard unscrewed, opening the breech. One loaded the ball, then loose powder, and screwed the breech closed, prime the pan, and the rifle was ready to fire. Also, a rifle is called a rifle because it has rifling in the barrel, which causes the ball to spin, making the firearm much more accurate than a musket, which is a smooth bore, (no rifling). The Ferguson rifle would have been able to fire much more rapidly than the the muzzleloading rifles used by the patriot side, and I thought his troops were armed with that gun. It was long ago that I read about the battle, and I recollect it says Ferguson's men were armed with rifles, (perhaps not the Ferguson though) as were the Patriots armed with their long rifles, and that this fight was the first time rifles were used exclusively on the opposing sides. I have an early flintlock Kentucky rifle, and although you aren't supposed to, I've shot it. It is extremely accurate. Within it's range limitations, it's every bit as accurate as a modern over the counter rifle. Those over mountain boys were all riflemen, hunters, and one of their favorite pastimes was shooting matches. They also had the cover, so it makes it tough to be the guy out in the open when every one of your opponents is capable of hitting his mark.

 

[truckinbutch]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

One of the things that has been overlooked is the fact that Brit military bureaucracy contributed to Ferguson's demise and the outcome of the battle . Re : the Ferguson rifle ; crates of which were warehoused in Baltimore(I think) instead of being issued to his troops because his superiors resisted change .
Had they had the rifle he invented we might still be singing "God Save The Queen".

The Ferguson rifle was a flintlock breech loader, I believe the first ever invented. The trigger guard unscrewed, opening the breech. One loaded the ball, then loose powder, and screwed the breech closed, prime the pan, and the rifle was ready to fire. Also, a rifle is called a rifle because it has rifling in the barrel, which causes the ball to spin, making the firearm much more accurate than a musket, which is a smooth bore, (no rifling). The Ferguson rifle would have been able to fire much more rapidly than the the muzzleloading rifles used by the patriot side, and I thought his troops were armed with that gun. It was long ago that I read about the battle, and I recollect it says Ferguson's men were armed with rifles, (perhaps not the Ferguson though) as were the Patriots armed with their long rifles, and that this fight was the first time rifles were used exclusively on the opposing sides. I have an early flintlock Kentucky rifle, and although you aren't supposed to, I've shot it. It is extremely accurate. Within it's range limitations, it's every bit as accurate as a modern over the counter rifle. Those over mountain boys were all riflemen, hunters, and one of their favorite pastimes was shooting matches. They also had the cover, so it makes it tough to be the guy out in the open when every one of your opponents is capable of hitting his mark.

Maj. Ferguson developed and patented the rifle . In trained hands it had a sustained rate of fire of 7 to 10 shots per minute . Accurate to 300 yds . Only deployed at the Battle of Brandywine in an experimental unit of 100 men which was dispersed after Ferguson was wounded .
I beleive the Brit troops on King's Mountain were armed with Brown Bess or short land muskets . Much less accurate and slower rate of fire .

 

[Old Town]

Ben Franklin recommended Americans take up longbows with many arrows at the ready for defending fortified positions like Breed's Hill. A longbow shooter could get off a dozen arrows a minute. He figured you could saturate the field before you out to 200 yards when British troops tried to advance in a group.

No accounts of this advice being taken. Franklin thought it would save on precious powder and be a resource (bows and arrows) without end. I like the idea. Can't imagine running through a storm of Bodkins. I'd rather be shot with a round ball of lead.

OT

 

[BosnMate]

Re: TODAY , October 7th 1780 *230 years ago. ALL AMERICANS MUST READ

One of the things that has been overlooked is the fact that Brit military bureaucracy contributed to Ferguson's demise and the outcome of the battle . Re : the Ferguson rifle ; crates of which were warehoused in Baltimore(I think) instead of being issued to his troops because his superiors resisted change .
Had they had the rifle he invented we might still be singing "God Save The Queen".

The Ferguson rifle was a flintlock breech loader, I believe the first ever invented. The trigger guard unscrewed, opening the breech. One loaded the ball, then loose powder, and screwed the breech closed, prime the pan, and the rifle was ready to fire. Also, a rifle is called a rifle because it has rifling in the barrel, which causes the ball to spin, making the firearm much more accurate than a musket, which is a smooth bore, (no rifling). The Ferguson rifle would have been able to fire much more rapidly than the the muzzleloading rifles used by the patriot side, and I thought his troops were armed with that gun. It was long ago that I read about the battle, and I recollect it says Ferguson's men were armed with rifles, (perhaps not the Ferguson though) as were the Patriots armed with their long rifles, and that this fight was the first time rifles were used exclusively on the opposing sides. I have an early flintlock Kentucky rifle, and although you aren't supposed to, I've shot it. It is extremely accurate. Within it's range limitations, it's every bit as accurate as a modern over the counter rifle. Those over mountain boys were all riflemen, hunters, and one of their favorite pastimes was shooting matches. They also had the cover, so it makes it tough to be the guy out in the open when every one of your opponents is capable of hitting his mark.

Maj. Ferguson developed and patented the rifle . In trained hands it had a sustained rate of fire of 7 to 10 shots per minute . Accurate to 300 yds . Only deployed at the Battle of Brandywine in an experimental unit of 100 men which was dispersed after Ferguson was wounded .
I beleive the Brit troops on King's Mountain were armed with Brown Bess or short land muskets . Much less accurate and slower rate of fire .

Truckin, Sounds like you are really up on your history. I'm a history nut, and now I'm going to have to go back and study up and refresh. I was very involved in shooting muzzleloaders the 70's, only giving up in the late 90's when my eyesight got so bad I couldn't see the sights anymore. In those days I was reading everything I could on history of the Kentucky Long Rifle, and now it looks like I'd better hit the books again.

 

[truckinbutch]

OT ,
I think there would be tactical advantage for that technology , even today , given the proper situation . Like you , I wouldn't care to be on the receiving end .
Bosn,
Stacy Groscup and Mel Forbes were and are lifelong friends and mentors . During the early years you speak of I built several 'oneholer' cap locks and made all of my own buckskinner gear . Like you , I don't shoot so well as I used to . When I can smoke the kids into putting the money on the shooting bench over one long range shot I still take home the beer money .
Experience and a larcenous heart will overcome youthful exuberance and good intentions .
Jim

 

[Old Town]

Butch: The Stacy Groscup of archery fame? There was a man of that name about 20 years ago who was a fabulous shooter of recurve bows. I never saw him but heard that distinctive name many times related to 3-D and field archery. (I shoot a longbow for laughs)

OT

 

[truckinbutch]

Butch: The Stacy Groscup of archery fame? There was a man of that name about 20 years ago who was a fabulous shooter of recurve bows. I never saw him but heard that distinctive name many times related to 3-D and field archery. (I shoot a longbow for laughs)

OT

One and the same . Fantastic man to have as a mentor growing up . Decorated Navy Seal(UDT)
during War 2 , ordained Methodist minister , psycologist , archeologist , registered Canadian big game guide , the list goes on and on .
Countless times I have watched him shoot thrown baby asprin tablets from the air with a bow . Short , straight native American type . Instinct shooting .

 

[Dano Sverige]

Been away sorry.No offence to you 4H,it was others saying about being proud etc. Always nice to read a good historical post with good pic's too...thanks.

Had the Americans changed tactics to the longbow...they'd have lost! We Brit's had hundreds of years experience with bows,and you can always ask the French their opinions on the English longbow at Agincourt!
Britain officially does not have a "national sport",although most would think cricket and football/soccer count. Technically Englands "official sport" is....Archery! By royal decree no less!

Since the Welsh conquest of Edward I, the longbow had been becoming increasingly important and numerous in the English armies of the day. Firing as many as 6 shots in a minute for sustained volleys, massed archery fire could begin to dwindle the numbers and resolve of an opponent starting at about 200 yards range. Over the next 100 years, the English longbow with its yard long arrow and armor-piercing bodkin point would give a striking arm to the little bands of brothers from England that would empty the saddles of knights from the low-countries, France and Italy. The hours of practice needed to master the powerful bows (some of which exceeded 120 pounds draw weight) made archery the national sport of England by royal decree.

You can see where old Ben got his idea from eh?

 

[Old Town]

Old Ben was just concerned with limited lead and powder. He figured massed arrows raining down a hillside would be better than throwing rocks or a bayonet charge. Anything but a bayonet charge!

OT

 

[DigginThePast]

Hey! Nice pics Mike! and Wow Very interesting!

For real.