Americas Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Frankn

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

It's called seek and yea shall find. The trick is the research to learn where to seek! I have done a lot of research in my time, and I am going to give you the benefit of some by posting suspected treasure locations. I have already posted three. They will be under METAL DETECTING or PROSPECTING, METAL DETECTING FOR GOLD. Some will include maps. Please note, some of this research includes info from 40 years ago. Some roads may have changes or routes may have changed. I will not say X marks the spot, that's your part.
Good Luck!
 

birdman

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

The sad thing is that many,many treasures are covered with concrete or have a walmart built over them.
 

rockhound

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

While I am sure some treasure caches have been covered up by civilization, most of these were in remote or out lying communities, where no banks existed. My friend uses a different approach to his cache hunting. He talks to old people, whenever, and wherever he can. Most of his leads originate from these talks. Older people love to talk, as most people shun them, so when someone shows them respect, they will open up. Most of his caches are not large compared to publicized monster caches. He also beach hunts,especially in the winter. He sells almost everything he finds, as that is his way of making a living. I have tried to gain access to the two close to me, but the land has changed hands and now a land developer has bought the land and posted it. He doesn't know about the caches,but is protecting his property against looters, as he is building homes on the lots. I contacted the original owners begore the land was sold, but they had already hired two men to find the treasure for them,but they failed to find it. It was her fathers treasure she was looking for. After they failed to find it, she sold the property to a developer. The other is a civil war treasure that was buried when the town was being burned by the yankees who came through and destroyed the railroad and town. The farmer who buried it left the area with just enough money to start again in Florida, but he never arrived there. He was not seen again.His children returned and searched for his treasure after the war but it wasn't found. Most of my friends caches are small, mainly tobacco crop and livestock money stached away and never retrieved, but a few hundred dollars of silver or gold could be worth a mint now with gold at $1300 an ounce, it wouldn't take many coins to make a good living. Most larger treasures are now buried on government land as the government has bought tracts that are most likely to contain these treasures. And off limits to treasure hunters. rockhound
 

lastleg

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

A word for Mr. Stout, I worked on the Bass legend many years ago. It was
a genuine heist, $60,000 in gold coins from a train robbery. The gang's hideout
was in a wooded hollow just south of Denton, TX. I believe the cache was more or less divided and moved around. The later holdups were small change.
After Sam was killed at Round Rock one of the gang but not one of the RR crew
escaped to Arizona and bought land. Evidently he went straight and lived a long life. His name was Frank Jackson. To sum up I think those double eagles
were spent.
I have been debunking several big treasure legends for several years on TNet
and all the thanks I get is yawns. Or they peg me a 'naysayer'. No matter if I give the reasons why the yarn does not make sense the obsessed treasure wisher can not be swayed by logic. Some of these yarns are so outrageous they make a good comedy, yet they are still being searched for. One poor guy
from Germany is totally convinced the French outlaw priest story is true he has
made several trips to the Oklahoma panhandle as considerable expense and
now finds the area he wants to search is off-limits from all the hundreds of
searchers tearing up the landscape. Just because a 'treasure' is mentioned in
popular book, printed by a university press, doesn't make it bonafide.
I have a theory about armchair THers. They read the end of the tale before
they read the circumstances that produced the lead. Almost always the printed
versions of buried riches have just enough bait to get your attention. As the
story unfolds the generalities abound and the author gives you no credible
proof the event even happened. They spin a single thread into a giant ball of
twine that hooks the novice hunter by the gills.
I know this because I have been hooked before and not once. This is why I
try to help guys like I used to be. Now i'm no pro like some I won't name but
I have been on the cache trail many years and have examined coutless cache
strories. Some few have proved legit, the Belen cartwheel recovery was found
and publicized. Nobody got rich over it though. We all hear stories of large
caches found, by accident. The real pros don't tell. We would love to hear all
the details to give us renewed hope but mostly it's the accidental finds that are
known about.
Untold years are wasted on bogus treasure hunts and many lives have been
lost in the pursuit of either long gone or nonexistent caches. If you don't think
so read about the Lost Dutchman 'enterprise' that continues to lure sincere, but
foolish believers to their deaths. And on top of that it is a gold mine yarn in a
non-gold production location. The real gold area that poduces large nuggets
regularly is only 50 miles west of the Superstitions. Go figure.
The Lost Adams is another famous boondoggle based mostly on fiction. The
Beale legend is another that could not have happened the way it is told. The
story from beginning to end is an elaborate hoax that was begun as a parlor
game. Oak Island, who has a dime of profit from it? KGC, billions in vaults
just waiting for the lucky THer. Read the history and decide if the conspiracy
buffs use reason to make their case.
Once in a great while a real one comes along that you can verify from first-
hand info. This is when your KVM training kicks in. ~ examino ~
 

billn1956

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Last week a find was made hear locally.And the man actually showed it to a couple of people all the while saying he needed to be quiet about it.It was about 4 lbs of gold made into a figure like one of those Mayan things you see.I am watching the TV,because after you tell 1 or show some one it gets out.If i ever find a good one.Nobody but the one i sale it to will know I had it.
 

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bigscoop

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

"Living the adventure".....the experiences it brings into one's life can make it all worth it. However, the problem with treasure hunting is it can quickly become an "obsession" because it's nearly required in order to be successful and yet it can also cause the pursuer to believe in just about anything. I hear people using the word "research" all the time but if I was to wager I'd bet that few of them spend any real measure of time investigating and researching the objectional material and facts. It's a difficult thing to devote so much time and energy to something you firmly believe in only to discover at some later point certain facts my exist that could possibly alter, or disprove, those very things you've placed your trust in. But if you're in for the adventure and the experiences encountered along the way........then have fun, be safe, and live the adventure to it's fullest. :thumbsup:
 

Tuberale

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

SWR said:
lastleg said:
Just because a 'treasure' is mentioned in popular book, printed by a university press, doesn't make it bonafide.

:thumbsup:
Jeez! That's why they make bibliographies, don't you think? If a book has one, you need to check their references. If they don't have one, don't add it to your treasure library.

While I enjoy reading some of Clive Cussler's books, I don't think they add anything to the history of any treasure, and would not include them in my treasure library. But anything from Ruby el Hult probably should be included!
 

BubbaJon

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

lastleg said:
I have been debunking several big treasure legends for several years on TNet
and all the thanks I get is yawns. Or they peg me a 'naysayer'. No matter if I give the reasons why the yarn does not make sense the obsessed treasure wisher can not be swayed by logic. Some of these yarns are so outrageous they make a good comedy, yet they are still being searched for. Once in a great while a real one comes along that you can verify from first-
hand info. This is when your KVM training kicks in. ~ examino ~
I was thinking you were making uncommon sense - that last sentence explains why. :)
 

rockhound

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

I have several treasure books, written by Henson,and others,who supposedly have done all the research before publishing their book.Although they do give references, you need to read between the lines to decipher the facts from the fiction. All of these stories are not rooted in facts, but someone spinning a yarn. If you had a treasure that your grndparents hid, would you give accurate details of its whereabouts? No, you would most likely tell the facts as close to the amount, as far as you knew, but you would most likely claim the treasure was in another county, or at least, in the opposite direction of where it is believed buried. You can still sell the story,as far as the treasure goes, but not the x that marks the spot. Realisitically, you want to keep that information for yourself, because you don't want someone else to dig up grandads treasure, unless it is you. So, theoretically, most treasure stories have some fact based beginning, but then too much information is injected into the story to make it more exciting,probably to sell more books. I have used only the start of some stories to gain information, but then disregarding the remainder as to where it is supposedly buried.More times than not, I believe if you reverse the direction from starting point A, you will be in the correct direction. rockhound
 

Tuberale

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Data without citation is heresay.

Your post about treasure books by Henson is a case in point.

Are you referring to Michael Paul Henson? If so, why not say so?

Who are the "others" you refer to?

If they have "done all the research before publishing their book" as you state, why didn't they find the treasures they reported?

That said, Michael Paul Henson is a well-published author with a series of treasure books to his name. I don't have any of them myself. I do have most of Thomas Penfield's series, and Buried Treasure of the United States by Robert Marx. There are many, many others. They provide a 1-2 sentence precis of a story, rarely with the pertinent 5 W's: Who, What, Where, When and Why.

Most books on treasure hunting do not have sufficient space to allow authors to include citations or references. It's the nature of the publishing business. Great treasure articles include citations.

Carl Miller saw this lack, and tried to remedy it at least in part by providing a partial bibliography in a separate book. Michael Paul Henson had many newspaper and magazine articles to back up his stories, but seldom printed where that information came from. Carl knew where the information was coming from but didn't published citations with any of his "Treasure Hunter's Manuals" that I have seen. Robert Marx often published where his information was coming from, but rarely included all of it. How different the world would be had the Internet become available earlier!
 

rockhound

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Yes, I do have most of those books too. I didn't say that they were factual,rather that most of their stories probably originated from real incidents involving buried treasure. You can see where Michael Henson and some others got their information. He states that he traveled around the country talking to people in mostly small towns about known treasures found in newspapers or magazines of bygone years when incidents had happened. A lot of the time, the only ones remebering those events were the elderly citizens of the community. After years had passed, they were probably not very accurate recollections on the part of these elderly people.Time has a way of erasing memories, or at least distorting them. But the fact remains that the basic start of the story was taken out of local newspapers. You have to remember that these authors weren't as interested in finding the treasure, as they were in publishing their books.Some may have actually looked for the treasures they wrote about, but most weren't as equipped to finding treasure as they were in writing a book on tresures. Any one of us can go to almost any small town and find treasure stories in the library or local newspaper archives. We can even publish it, if it is our desire. But,unless we write a book about them, than we would have to look for the treasure itself to try and recoupe some of our money,not to mention the time.These authors spent years doing research that most of us would never have the time or money to research. I hardly have time to research the tresures in my small town, without going to others. I like Hensons style of reseach, but as far as factual,he didn't mark the spot with an X. If he had known where the treasure was buried, he would have retrieved it himself.Happy Hunting. rockhound
 

lastleg

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Tuberale:

That was a reference to Wilson's book on Oklahoma Treasures printed by the
University of Oklahoma Press. I used to check it out of libraries to see if I could
find credible leads. If you have seen this book you know it is the granddaddy of all Oklahoma treasure resources. This is one you want on your coffe table.
It has been over ten years since I last checked it out. It is basically a collection
of all treasure yarns in Oklahoma in one illustrated book.
As far as the legend of this gang of Frenchmen robbing placer miners in the
Taos, NM area and smelting bars of retort gold goes, if you are sitting at the
kitchen table in Happy Jack, Wisconsin, you're thinking WOW. If you are a
prospector in Kingman, AZ, you're thinking BS.
How many of the Beale groupies ever read the details of the gold/silver lode
that is the basis of the legend? It is available. The story given is factually a
load of crud. I don't care if it had a whole page of eye-witness accounts, which
it doesn't, it would still be bogus because of the place, the time period and the
logic behind it.
Treasure writers deserve all the money they get from these yarns, which isn't
that much. They fill the void of dullness, the routine. The Hensen yarns never
got me excited. They lacked the drama that good writers need to sell books.
In fact, of all the treasure books I had read, only one has that ring of truth.
It's very outdated now but if you ever want to know how to write 'treasure'
this one shines, "Golden Treasures of the San Juan" by Cornelius and Marshall.
Usually emotion conquers common sense for the hunter until they arrive at
the site and then everything goes haywire.
 

Tuberale

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

I don't consider you a naysayer, Pegleg. Research has a way of proving or disproving history. I've learned that history is usually just that: his story, written by someone willing to say what happened, but not always completely factual.

The term "Frenchmen" instead of, say, Grouleaux Brothers is one example. When I was young and foolish, I read with great interest about the Sheepherder Gold Ledge, sometimes embellished as Lost Sheepherder Gold Ledge. Lost Sheepherder is inaccurate, because he knew exactly where he was at. But without an actual name to document, it's heresay, and would not be a lead I would follow-up on.

Recently finished a lead myself. Not generally considered a treasure, but certainly historically accurate. May mention something about it in a few years. Or not.

Need to contact a friend about a cache of gold coins on her property that I'll be looking for later this week. Another interesting tale. But not necessarily one that needs to be published.
 

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bigscoop

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

This has been an enteresting thread, a lot of different insights and thoughts on the subject. There also appears to be a growing debate on what constitutes a reliable reference or resource, which I think provides a lot of food for thought in regards to conducting research. And the last thing that I think that is presented is that some treasure hunters prefer to deal in only documented facts and cases, while others appear to prefer to go digging for their own secret treasure cases. It's interesting to note the different mindsets and the reasons for them. Keep the thoughts coming, very interesting stuff. :thumbsup:
 

lastleg

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Tuberale:

The French priest yarn is called the "Tres Piedras" treasure in Steve's Book.
There are several 'Tres Piedras' stories but this one is supposed to be buried
in Cimmaron Co in the Olkahoma panhandle. I just learned that Ken Weinman
has one by that name in W&E recently but I don't know if his was this one.
We have it easy now with the internet in researching these old legends. No
hours in the library standing on our 'peglegs' for hours.
I will look up your Sheepherder legend and report back.
 

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Tom_in_CA said:
I think the vast majority of the treasure legends (lost mines, lost military payrolls, bank heists where the posse shot them on the spot but-found-no-money-type-of-thing), are 99% urban legend, embellished camp-fire stories, etc....

The human mind wants "so hard to believe" though, because otherwise you feel like you "might be left out", or the "what if it's true, I certainly don't want to miss out" type thinking. Thus we tend to believe them, and just take whatever sources cited, as "must be true" (I mean, afterall, it's in print isn't it? haha).

... See how the human mind works? As long as there's a single fact (even if it's simply that a man by a certain name was a hermit living on the back-40 somewhere), then people just buy the rest of the story. And if you try to tell them that it's riddled with he-said/she-said conjectures, they'll just tell you "that's where you have to weed out the false-hoods, and get to the truth". So it's just an endless vicious logic loop, where .... the bottom line is, in the mind of the hearer/listener, there simply MUST be a treasure there :)

This post is a dead-on ringer and perfectly illustrates my own thoughts on this.
I'd also add to the equation: Outright liars.
That sort of intensely undesirable person who feels the need to fabricate total mendacities out of thin air. Sometimes, they're just mildly flawed people with a pathetic need to be the center of attention. Other times, it's the Walter Mitty types who have a hard time distinguishing reality from the stuff they make up in their own minds. Either way, seeing as I can hardly go a 24 hour stretch without encountering such people in daily life, there's no doubt in my mind that the roles of history have them well-represented as the basis for tall-tales of fantastic hidden treasures, having absolutely zero footing in actual fact.

... but, people are dreamers and stuff like this strikes a chord, so it becomes like an article of faith to some. I guess everyone's gotta believe in something. It's just that some people are more apt to believe in bullsht than others.
 

rockhound

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

2% of the people find 98% of the treasure. That leaves out most of us. Only those willing to go the extra mile, do the footwork and gather leads and seek out the real treasure stories and research them will most likely ever find a cache.Or, Only maybe by stumbling over one, which does occur occassionally. I don't consider myself in that 2% yet, as I am still in the process of tying all the ends together.After talking to all the professional treasure hunters I know, one thing stands out more than any other,research is a never ending means to and end.Internet is a viable tool to do research with, but there are many other avenues to take in our quest for knowledge of a particular type. Many historical societies have members who have a vast knowledge of local historical sites and can even fill in some stories of lost or buried treasure. Libraries keep most of the newspaper of earlier years on microfilm for viewing. Most all of the people I know are just coin shooters and haven't tried to get involved with buried or lost treasure. Hunting parks,ballfields, and schools and or other public meeting places, where allowed, presents a good opportunity to find coins and rings.Most are satisfied with that. Only those who are really serious pursue the buried and lost caches. The biggest obstacle for my friend, the professional treasure hunter had, was the purchase of the equipment to do it with.It is a sizeable investment to get started. Don't expect to find those caches with a hand held metal detector. You could spend two lifetimes hunting one field, if you could narrow it down to that. Like I said only 2% of the treasure hunters find 98% of the treasure. Those that are best equipped find the bulk of the treasure.It takes a vast amount of time and money, which most people can't afford to lose. Mel Fisher went years before finding anything at all. It is a gamble,just like everything else, there are no guarantees.These are all the details I am going to reveal. rockhound
 

Tuberale

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

To Tom_in_CA: BS is an asset to mushroom growers like myself. "If the world gives you lemons ..."

That said, the goal of a treasure researcher is to separate verifiable fact from fiction. In order to do so, you must know your history and that of the community you are searching in.

But I appreciate the BS, too. My uncle, who was quite a storyteller, once told a complete fabrication about an Indian game surround of rock and other material nearby. He told it to the curator of a well-known museum (Horner). Curator published the story verbatim. Odd thing about the "trap" is the c. 1910 barbed wire among the stones enclosing 150-year-old oak trees ...

People still visit the game pen occasionally. Now that my uncle and Horner are gone, can just tell the truth: complete fabrication. Some are still certain Native Americans used barbed wire in game surrounds. Surprised it didn't get into Jean Auel's "Clan of the Cave Bear."
 

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bigscoop

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

Rockhound........concerning caches & stashes, I'd say 2% is probably a generous estimate. I'd guess the actual percentage is probably far less. And you're right about the expense, it takes quite an investment to be equipped to do some serious searching. Even conducting research can get quite expensive.

Morgan.........I have a hard time labeling anyone as an out-right liar, though I'm sure there are some out there. For the most part I think, for whatever reason, people truely believe what their mind is telling them to believe in. Some of it may be from a deep need or desire and then some of it may be from the simple ignorance of, or the misunderstanding of, the facts. Some of it may even be ingrained through personal experiences or tragedies unknown to others. My father once told me that anyone can teach everyone else something of value, except those who refuse to listen. If 99% of a story contains just 1% of truth then it just might prove to be the 1% of truth I've been looking for. I always keep that in mind when listening to the insight, theories, and opinions of others. I think as treasure hunters, or when researching anything, it's important to remember that even the documented facts have sometimes proven to have been distorted for one reason or another.
 

rockhound

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Re: America's Famous Treasure Legends. Could they really still be out there?

My friend told me that to do some serious treasure hunting required at least a year. That's one year of not working and no obligation except treasure hunting,which requires a lot of travel. Not counting the motel rooms and or camping equipment involved,you must have enough money saved to fund an expidition to wherever the treasure might be. He travels all over the country in search of that one elusive treasure,most times to come back empty handed because of property owners or government land that won't allow treasure hunting. So even after doing months of research, it may come to naught.He found a silver outcropping on one mans land after he had permission to hunt it. But the man wouldn't let him do anything wihout first divulging the whereabout,before they signed a contract.He is now waiting for the old man to pass on, so he can buy the land.He has told me many more such stories, so it is not all cut and dried.He said you win some and you lose some,others, you just have to be patient with. The one factor that keeps him going is the fact that when he does hit one, it usually is enough to bankroll him for a couple years, maybe more. He has also found evidence where someone has dug up the one he was looking for and never told anyone about it. This is another big problem for professional treasutre hunters. After working on a lead for months and finally narrowing it down to the spot,you find that someone beat you to it. If it had been documented, then you could have saved many hours,weeks, months, searching for it.He put back money for about 10 years to start his busines, and yes, it is a business.Happy Hunting. rockhound
 

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