Videotape the harassment.

[Coinstriking Michigan]

Hey all, we have a new Parks Director in my small town. A very unhappy woman who calls the police on anyone metal detecting in the park. For years and years previous there was no issue with metal detecting in my town. So we contact the chief of police and the city manager who both sat here is no law against it...yet when the cops show up they say we have to leave. So what I am going to do is bring a video camera with me and tape her and or the police and ask them on camera if it's illegal, if they say no then I would have every right to stay correct? I think maybe with a video camera they may choose to go a route other than the "Because we said so" route. You can't create a law on the spot to suit your dislike for something, so this will hold them accountable. Any thoughts from you fine folks?

 

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[TheRandyMan]

I would try to get a letter from the chief of police stating that there are no laws/ordinances against it and have that handy. The videotaping could be seen as an aggressive thing by some cops...especially the ones who don't want to be videotaped. If you can get them to let you show that you know how to cut and replace a plug correctly, that might help also. Everyone loves to see a professional in action.

 

[nova]

You need something in writing from the City manager or chief of police, problem solved.
I think it would be simpler way.

 

[Coinstriking Michigan]

Police have no expectation of privacy and in a public place don't have a right to say anything about being videotaped. They did see my plug cutting and even admitted that they couldn't tell where I had dug but it's a control issue with the Parks Director...she is miserable. The thing is, yes they said it wasn't illegal but that's all they will say...so we go to detect, she calls the cops and they make us leave.

 

[Monty]

Try to get some feedback and backing from someone of authority over the parks director such as the mayor or a council member, etc. As a former department manager in a large city I have had to deal with nit picking politics and and a few times have had to go over the complainer's head to get things resolved. Petit politics is a pain in the arse but unfortunately something we all have to contend with at one time or another. Usually when this sort of issue comes to a head, the offending party tries to get a law passed to prevent you from detecting in the park at all. Be sure to line up all the support you can if it comes to that. ie: be ready to get your friends and allies to attend any public hearing if such a law is being discussed or contemplated. If you are forced to play the politics game, you will need to get all the public support behind you that you can. Be ready to take it all the way. Monty

 

[Coinstriking Michigan]

Try to get some feedback and backing from someone of authority over the parks director such as the mayor or a council member, etc. As a former department manager in a large city I have had to deal with nit picking politics and and a few times have had to go over the complainer's head to get things resolved. Petit politics is a pain in the arse but unfortunately something we all have to contend with at one time or another. Usually when this sort of issue comes to a head, the offending party tries to get a law passed to prevent you from detecting in the park at all. Be sure to line up all the support you can if it comes to that. ie: be ready to get your friends and allies to attend any public hearing if such a law is being discussed or contemplated. If you are forced to play the politics game, you will need to get all the public support behind you that you can. Be ready to take it all the way. Monty

The problem with that Monty is this is a town of only 4,800 people so they are all buddy buddy with each other. I'm just wondering if she has the right to tell me to leave even though no ordinance prohibits it. So that's why I though of the video camera idea, she may not want to incriminate herself stretching the truth and being a bully on camera.

 

[ohioaxeman]

She has no right to tell you to leave. i would think the best bet is to get permission from city manager about having a detecting "party" at the park for a bunch of kids and maybe some adults. you can "salt" a marked off area and teach them the basics especially plugging the holes when finished. it may gain some support within the cummunity. then the "hag" and the cops would be considered harrassing you any time in the future. worth a try??

 

[Daedalus]

If it is not against the law or an ordinance then when they tell you to leave do not, if you have not broken any laws then let them arrest you . You will win the case and they will be held liable for the arrest, Go speak to a lawyer about this first . Then you will see.
This happened to me on a case that was not due to Metal Detecting , and the officer arrested me on the spot .
He no longer works for the City and the City ended up paying me a chuck of change for what they did.

It was along the same lines of what you are going through , it was a person who thought they could just make up the laws as they went along , and they were using there place in the city government to do what they wanted.

And if you speak to a Lawyer on this they will tell you what you have to do and what they can not do. But you have to be ready to take them to court.

IF it ends up like mine did you will get a settlement , and that was not what I was looking for , the judge ordered it . You will have to sign a NDA as the City will not want it in the news .

This Lady who was doing this to me and others and the kids in the City does not work there anymore and she does not live in the city anymore either . The Officer was dismissed from his Job as the Court said he knew that I had not broken any laws and had made the arrest on behalf of the City on false grounds.
It's up to you what you do but I would say get he Legal advice first , and the Lawyer may just bring charges up with out you having to do anything.

And like you it was a smaller town, I had to get a Lawyer out of town who would take the case , and they moved the Court hearing out of the Town it happened in.
This happens more than you would think , and it is by little people who are going to make the City do just what they think should be done , and that is if it is legal or not .

You have to make the choice weather you are going to stand up for your rights or not and just let it go. And I agree sometimes it is not worth the trouble.
But if we do not start standing up for what is right then we are going to lose the rights we have now.

 

[luvsdux]

The one concern I would have on fighting this is nearly any (although fair and legal) action you take may lead to making MDing in the park or on other city property illegal. I'd at most get a letter of permission from the Mayor/Chief of Police and have it on me when approached by the police. I don't see where that could hurt and I'd think that an officer would just drop the issue and leave at that point. Then, if she continues to harass you, file or threaten a harassment suit against the lady.
My two bits,
luvdux

 

[Saturna]

A hidden mini-cam might come in handy. Police don't always like being filmed as that implies being held accountable, which is something that power tripping authority figures don't like.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I like daedalus's answer best so far. But Farscape, let's examine something you said: ".... You can't create a law on the spot to suit your dislike for something".

Well, yes and no. What eforcement officials DO have the power to do, is interpret the laws/rules to fit various situations they encounter in the field day-to-day.

For example: I too had a case where I got booted from a particular park, where I felt there was no prohibitions (no park's rules levels, nor any type of city-wide prohibition that specifically said "metal detectors"). When I objected to the guy "but why?", the public works landscaper guy got agitated, and threatened to call the cops, so I left. When I got home, I researched the matter, and found that ..... indeed, there were no prohibitions specifically addressing detectors. So I took the matter to a lawyer friend of mine, and asked "can they just nilly willy make up rules to nix out something they just don't happen to like? ie.: doesn't there have to be a specific rule?". The wise lawyer friend said that they are entitled to apply existing rules, to apply to a myriad of situations, that could arise in the field. Because you see Farscape, laws and rules are PURPOSEFULLY written vaguely, so as to apply to a lot of situations that could come up in the field.

For example: The law says "No nudity". So farscape goes out there with a single sock on. The cop comes up and tries to arrest farscape for nudity. You object: "But officer, I wasn't technically nude, since I still had one sock on!". Then you and the cop will just have to get into a jousting match of what "nudity" is defined as, blah blah blah. And so on, and so forth. If the upper-managers above these rank-&-file didn't support those in the field for any type judgement call like this, everyone would be arguing semantics, all the time! Ie.: "But officer, I wasn't walking my dog in the park. Because you see, he only has 3 legs. Thus he "hops" not "walks", and so forth, and so on.

Thus, the real question is, did the cop (via the lady who keeps calling it in) over-step the allowed judgement and interpretation powers he has? You have to ask yourself, since there's no rule against md'ing, then they probably morph something else to apply: like the usual "defacement" clauses. Naturally, you think you were "defacing" anything (and I'm sure we'd all agree with you). But if you are in front of a judge, are you going to be able to prevail on that defense, that since there is no resulting visual indications, that you are not guilty of that? I mean, all the cop would have to do is say "He was digging", and then you retort, "the law doesn't disallow that, it only disallows defacing and vandalism, which implies the END result. My end result was nothing, thus, I was not in violation", etc... It's gonna be a hard one to argue about, because you can bet, in the judge's mind, that if he allows you, then he has to allow every other yahoo out there, and ..... the next guy may not be as neat with his incisions

Or perhaps the cop's beef is about "collecting" verbage, which is also usually written into every city's park's rules. They're there to prevent people from backing up their pickups to harvest all the tan-bark, or sand, or flowers, etc... from the park's gardens. While the intent of those "no collecting" rules are clear, yet there is nothing to stop them from being applied to "collecting" coins, rings, metal, etc... Believe me, I've seen that reason as one floated by a govt. entity for booting someone! Try to argue out of that one, and it's pretty durn hard

This is why I do 90% of my hunting at odd hours, when no lookie-lou busy bodies are around (even hunt parks after night-fall now!). Not that I think I'm doing anything wrong, but because I don't want to "hear otherwise".

But with that said, if you have no way to be more discreet and not be seen by this busy-body, and if you really want to continue to hunt those zones, I think I'd go Daedalus' route: get a ticket, and go fight it.

Someone did that in a San Francisco park (well, not on purpose to LOOK for the ticket, but ..... they got one in a municipal park). They went and fought it. A simple 2 sentence explanation of their "innocent hobby that did no harm, thus it was all a noble mis-understanding on the part of the nice cop" blah blah. Took less than 30 seconds once they'd waited their turn in line at traffic court or whatever it was. Before the md'r could even finish his next sentence, the judge said "dismissed", and called for the next in line. That md'r carried that dismissal paper around with him for years afterwards, for in case he needed to show it (he never did need to btw, as he never heard anymore peeps).

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Everyone has great suggestions.

You need something in writing. From the police saying they were called to throw you out, and from your local parks department. You have a right to have a copy of the "laws" - ask for one - and make sure they comply. Even if you have to file a FOIA to get it.

Then, take it to your town council. Go in there, find out when the next public meeting will take place, and ask them to put you on the agenda.

Show up at the council meeting with information proof, in hand, and an estimate of how much is costs everytime she calls the police to enforce a
law that is not on the books. (time spent X their salary).

When you bring it down to dollars and cents (sense), that will get their attention. You might also want to get a copy of your parks department's
"job duties" - and hopefully, it will say something in the realm of "to enforce existing laws" - which means she is derelict in her duties.

One thing we have done - which has helped us tremendously in small towns (like ours), is to offer anything of historical value to their little local museum (most towns have them). Here, the history is ranching, RR (used to be a big cattle shipping area) and the like that has had a big impact, and a major fire in the 1800's, and when we find things like spike jacks, etc., they are thrilled to get them.


B

 

[Saturna]

If you have lots of time to waste, you could also go to the park without any digging tools and just swing the detector over the grass. It wouldn't even have to be on.

Then when the police show up, they will have to explain why it's illegal to wander around a park.

Maybe if you did this enough, they might be able to figure out priorities and resource management. Something cops seem to have a difficult time doing sometimes.

 

[Rockin Chairs Gold]

A few years back here in a small town in Central Illinois my son, I and my father-in-law went to the town park to metal detect. We were there about 30 minutes when the town policeman came up and said the villiage Mayor had called him and told him to tell us to leave. He said he had been watching us for the past 30 minutes and he personally had no problems with us as we were filling our holes properly and were making no mess.

My son who works for a big commercial heating and cooling contractor out of Springfield was over there recently on a job and was talking to the village policeman about our situation a few years ago, and was informed the town now has a new villiage Mayor so we are planning on going over there this spring to talk to them about metal detecting the park again.

In that 30 minutes we metal detected we located several pieces of late 19Th century and early 20Th century silver coins. It can't hurt to talk to them to see if a change in villiage management changed anything. Rick

 

[drewan29]

Police have no expectation of privacy and in a public place don't have a right to say anything about being videotaped. They did see my plug cutting and even admitted that they couldn't tell where I had dug but it's a control issue with the Parks Director...she is miserable. The thing is, yes they said it wasn't illegal but that's all they will say...so we go to detect, she calls the cops and they make us leave.

Hello Farscape,
I would get a letter from the cheif of police and the city manager, as for video taping I wouldn't go that route eitheir you might get it confinscated. Is it a city park or state park if it's a state park the park manager can say yes or no, if it is open to the public then she can't stop you WHY? because MICHIGAN LAW IS ANY PLACE THAT IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC IS OPEN TO METAL DETECTING. It is in the michigan hunting regulations you have to look for it though. I hope that this helps some.
drewan.

 

[dirty_digger]

I'm with getting it in writing. The video taping or argueing will only P1$$ people off. These people could be the ones that make the city laws. So next year you might get arrested or fined... because all of a sudden digging of any sort is forbidden on city land. If you rub them the wrong way, they have the power to shut down the metal detectors.

 

[Red James Cash]

Start passing out lawsuits,sometimes thats the only thing the idiots in government seem to understand.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Start passing out lawsuits,sometimes thats the only thing the idiots in government seem to understand


This should probably be the last thing on your list. (not saying it shouldn't be on your list) Diplomacy, and finding and presenting the facts are the preferred first steps. You don't want them to get together and MAKE a detecting ban - and if they think it might come to having to spend money defending themselves, that could happen. (I think half the laws and ordinances in this town are because the council wants to CYA).

B

 

[snowdog20]

We american citizens are the highest sovereigns in the land. This is why america was founded as a republic, and by technical definition we still are. Sadly, we've permitted the false assertion that we're a democracy.
At this time, the government's position is that they own it, they control it, and therefore you the 'bloodbag' citizen will be fed off of, until we re-assert our rights under the 10th amendment this will get worse. Previously they were referred to as "public servants" Police wore blue, now they wear black, and now they are called "authorities" across the board.
In their view, a metal detector probably resembles some kind of martian death ray. So, what you're experiencing is typical; In the "authorities" eyes, what you're doing is SCARY and needs to be stopped right away before it kills a rare minnow in the nearby pond!

 

[Mrs Bloom]

I was thinking the same thing as dingdong..."bring a extra machine and ask if she want 2 join u, cant hurt, then throw down a silver 4 her 2 find ".