Ground balance questions....All comments welcome!!

[bigtim1973]

I been thinking about this for a little while and decided to post and see what you other fellows have to say about it. What is the benefit of having a metal detector with an adjustable ground balance that only works in the all metal setting and goes to a preset balance while in the discrimination mode? I know Tesoro does this except for the Lobo ST and I am kind of confused about it. I like Tesoro machines also but, it seems to me that it would be better to have adjustable ground balance in both disc and all metal modes. I know about turning the threshold up and super tuning a machine to get more depth but why? Does it cost that much more to have it wired into the circuit? Anyways all comments are welcome. Tim

 

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[liftloop]

me I rather ground balance the detector my self I'm not familiar with Tesoro detectors.so I can't offer any advice My 5900 dipro from white's you ground balance in all metal.G.E.B norm White's were first to knock out the ground with there detectors.If you don't knock out the ground you won't find the deeper targets.


lift loop

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

I have wondered about the same thing so I read up on ground balancing. Some it is I understand and some of it is a little confusing. Most of the time it is hard to figure out on your own, I am the kind of person that learns better when someone shows it to me. But I try my best! Here is a link that explains about ground balancing.

http://nextdetector.com/ground-balance-guide.html

 

[Terry Soloman]

I been thinking about this for a little while and decided to post and see what you other fellows have to say about it. What is the benefit of having a metal detector with an adjustable ground balance that only works in the all metal setting and goes to a preset balance while in the discrimination mode? I know Tesoro does this except for the Lobo ST and I am kind of confused about it. I like Tesoro machines also but, it seems to me that it would be better to have adjustable ground balance in both disc and all metal modes. I know about turning the threshold up and super tuning a machine to get more depth but why? Does it cost that much more to have it wired into the circuit? Anyways all comments are welcome. Tim

Hi Bigtime! Ground balancing can be simple, or as complicated as you want to make it. Minerals in soil - or water, like salt and iron, cause "Eddy currents" that send back signals to your detector that becomes in essence "White Noise" that masks the signal of your target, or causes the detector to "false" or sound off on a ghost target. This is only a problem with "VLF" (very low frequency) radio wave type detectors. Tesoro is the industry leader in automatic ground balancing and tracking (being able to adjust itself to changing levels of soil mineralization). Here is part one of a three-part video I shot at the Minelab Technology Training Center in Dewey, AZ, back in 2010. Steve Gholson explains the difference in VLF and PI (Pulse Induction) metal detectors, and the theory behind ground balancing. Hope this helps! - Terry

 

[bigolhorns]

Tejon and Vaquero GB works in both all metal and discrimination mode.

 

[mts]

Tejon and Vaquero GB works in both all metal and discrimination mode.

That's what I thought as well. And the Lobo St has automatic ground balance, not manual.

 

[leatherneck]

I have used both, with a Garrett Grand Master Hunter III, a Tesoro Eldorado and a Whites MXT. I have always been able to fine tune the ground balance better in manual ground balance than the automatic settings and all of my detectors have gone deeper in manual ground balance. Sometimes it's a pain to have to tweak your ground balance every few feet in manual ground balance, but if you can detect that little piece of gold that you wouldn't have gotten in Auto, then it is worth it. My two cents worth.

 

[Swartzie]

I don't know if there's a benefit or not. But, when I hunt with my Tejon in all metal (which is a true all metal and not just zero discrimination) I have to adjust the balance often because the ground changes often where I hunt. Within a few feet it can change. Usually there are pockets in the ground that will drop the balance down to the negative. The biggest advantage to all metal is the machine is way more sensitive. In all metal I'm using the change in the threshold hum to detect targets. So I need a steady constant threshold hum. If the balance is out, the pitch of the hum changes when I swing the coil and interferes with my ability to detect a target. But, in disc mode I'm not using a threshold hum to detect targets. I'm just listening for the machine to beep. So, my balance can be off a bit and not interfere with my ability to detect a target. Jeez, I hope that makes sense. BTW, I hunt in all metal in vco mode.

-Swartzie

 

[deepskyal]

My guess why a mfg'r would have manual GB in all metal would be for the prospector type person that is looking for those variances in minerals in the ground that might indicate the presence of something desirable, like gold in black sand.
Then, when you're deliberately disc'ing out metals, they auto Gb for you figuring you're coin shooting or relic hunting and don't care about ground variances.

When I first started detecting, I had an old t/r machine that required constant balancing. Most areas it was okay but there were enough places that minerals drove the machine crazy and I couldn't balance it fast enough to make it worth my while. When I got a better VLF that had manual ground balance, the circuitry was much better but still had the occasion of highly mineralized areas the machine would just squak over.
Now with the Vision, with autobalance, I have only had one spot, and I do mean spot, about 6' in diameter, the machine just nulled over and nothing I could do would balance over it. The DISadvantage of autobalance. I think the soil was brought in and mounded up to form a pitchers mound at one time. Probably some weird clay material.

But that's just my 2 cents worth anyhow.

Al

 

[mts]

I don't know if there's a benefit or not. But, when I hunt with my Tejon in all metal (which is a true all metal and not just zero discrimination) I have to adjust the balance often because the ground changes often where I hunt. Within a few feet it can change. Usually there are pockets in the ground that will drop the balance down to the negative. The biggest advantage to all metal is the machine is way more sensitive. In all metal I'm using the change in the threshold hum to detect targets. So I need a steady constant threshold hum. If the balance is out, the pitch of the hum changes when I swing the coil and interferes with my ability to detect a target. But, in disc mode I'm not using a threshold hum to detect targets. I'm just listening for the machine to beep. So, my balance can be off a bit and not interfere with my ability to detect a target. Jeez, I hope that makes sense. BTW, I hunt in all metal in vco mode.

-Swartzie

Yes, it makes complete sense to me. But that may be because I have a Vaquero which is very similar to the Tejon. I've never used the all metal mode though because the places I hunt are way to trashy. It would drive me crazy to have to listen to every little piece of foil making my detector go nuts. But if I ever get out and do some REAL relic hunting I'll be sure to switch to all metal.

My understanding is that a lot of "auto" ground balance machines are actually "preset" ground balance. They pick a nice average value and set it internally with a potentiometer. Not all machines work this way but many of the lower end ones do (sub $1000). So you can see that having your manual ground balance off a bit doesn't really matter that much if you are operating in a silent discriminate mode. If you want to be detecting at optimal depth then you want to set it as close as possible. But if it is off just a bit it can't be much worse than using a detector with "preset" ground balance. Because of this I usually set it and forget it at the beginning of my session. I may check it every couple of hours or so but that's about it. If I was detecting in true all metal mode though I would probably be adjusting my ground balance much more often.

As a side note, I've read about different detector companies adjusting the preset ground balance on machines based on your soil type. Some companies have you send in a soil sample and they will set the internal potentiometer appropriately so that your ground balance setting is optimal for your soil conditions. Not all detectors work this way but some do. I think that everyone should make sure they understand how the ground balancing function works on their own detector. Is it manual, true auto, or preset?

 

[bigtim1973]

I prefer the auto tracking features that are available with some machines. I can see where a manual balance would benefit someone looking for gold but if someone uses disc for coin and jewelry hunting I would think that having an adjustable ground balance in the disc mode would be better than having it just in all metal mode. Do not get me wrong as there are several detectors out there I have used and liked that had a preset turn on and go ground balance that I had alot of fun with but I have noticed with an adjustable ground in discrimination mode, that I would get deeper good targets. With the other machines that I have used that would have a ground balance in all metal, I would balance my detector in all metal and search that way and flip over to disc mode to check the target. I seemed to have better overall results with a detector that has the capability to trac ground while in disc mode. These are just my experiences, Tim

 

[rockhound]

Most has been touched upon here and I don't need to add much to it. I think the big reason most manufacturers do this is because most people want a turn on and go detector for hunting in trashy areas such as parks,schools and playgrounds. They added the versatility of having a manual ground balance in all metal mode for when you are hunting at the beach or prospecting or hunting relics,where manual GB has a definite advantage over preset GB. It is for those few occasions when the ground is highly mineralized or hot that you can manually tweak your machine for optimum depth, although most people prospecting have to continually change GB in hot ground due to changing ground conditions(mineralization). For this very reason, most gold machines have continuous ground balance. It rebalances itself whenever the ground changes.For those who started out with a manual GB machine,in the 60's and 70's, it comes as a second nature to us. Back before target ID and VLF machines hit the market,there was no choice but to maually GB your machine when going to a different area. TR machines still have a big following , and can be very productive with an experienced person using it. PI machines are very different animals, but are extremely deep machines.They tend to act like the older TR machines in the way they work,except for the discrimination part.Learning to use a TR machine will tell you a great deal about Ground Balance.Good Luck. rockhound

 

[ivan salis]

THINK OF OLD DAIL IN RADOIS VS NEWER DIGITAL ONES * WITH THE OLD DIAL IT IN YOUR SELF TYPES YOU COULD FINE TUNE AND CATCH WEAKER STATIONS THAT "MODERN" DIGITAL RADIO SETS "SKIP" OVER AS THEY SCAN FOR A STATION

so its a matter of "control" --you you want to be able to set things the way YOU want them (because you know what your doing and can get better results) or if you do not know how to --are you willing to accept the "standard" setting they program it to have?

some areas with wicked inerals and condition --have to have fully adjustible setting if you want to hunt them -- standard preset "factory" setting modes are no good there --( not too common but there are places that are "unhuntible" with preset type detectors)

if one "understands" how to ground balance a machine for the local soil --there is no doubt that they will maximize what can be found there vs a preset machine setting -- if one knows how --self controlled setting is the way to go.

 

[dirtfisher]

Here is my problem with manual ground balancing and preset ground balancing that I am having a hard time understanding. If you are in positive ground and have to manually adjust to go slightly negative to get that perfect balance and 3 feet later you run into negative ground, that would make your ground balance way negative which would lose depth dramatically and could cost you some finds and vice versa. However if my ground balance is set slightly positive with a preset and I go over negative ground, wouldn't that make me almost perfectly balanced for most of the soil conditions? It would seem at that point having a preset may be at an advantage over manual. In the positive ground it would make it too positive and would definitely lose depth. Which is when the manual gb would come at an advantage. But I hear if you don't check your manual ground balance often to re-tune to the ground matrix you could or could not be at a major disadvantage. I find that most hunters with a manual ground balance just set it at the beginning of their hunt and forget about it. But if I run into the conditions above, I would hate to lose depth by not checking it either. Seems like too much to worry about for me which is why I chose the preset. I want a manual ground balance machine, just kinda tore between the two. Get what I mean?

 

[SpiritRelic]

Yeah it can get a little confusing.You can tell if the preset gb machine is ok by setting to all metal and bobbing the coil to the ground,if your soil stays in the more neutral zone the preset is not that bad.The most neutral zones run from the tip of Florida up to Maine along the east coast.But you may can pick up a inch or two of depth with the manual gb machine even in more neutral zones.But if you are out of this zone i myself would also want a a manual gb machine myself.Which i am in the neutral zone but do go to better depths while relic hunting with the Tesoro Vaquero or Tejon.If i park hunt or shoot for silver coins and basic jewelry hunt i just use my golden umax that is preset.This detector also has notch discrimination which i will never go in the trashy areas without.Also the golden has tones,high tone coins,silver,some gold,middle tone,pull tabs and some gold rings etc...It is a goodie getter for sure.I will have a golden until the day i die. ;-)

 

[dirtfisher]

Yeah it can get a little confusing.You can tell if the preset gb machine is ok by setting to all metal and bobbing the coil to the ground,if your soil stays in the more neutral zone the preset is not that bad.The most neutral zones run from the tip of Florida up to Maine along the east coast.But you may can pick up a inch or two of depth with the manual gb machine even in more neutral zones.But if you are out of this zone i myself would also want a a manual gb machine myself.Which i am in the neutral zone but do go to better depths while relic hunting with the Tesoro Vaquero or Tejon.If i park hunt or shoot for silver coins and basic jewelry hunt i just use my golden umax that is preset.This detector also has notch discrimination which i will never go in the trashy areas without.Also the golden has tones,high tone coins,silver,some gold,middle tone,pull tabs and some gold rings etc...It is a goodie getter for sure.I will have a golden until the day i die. ;-)

I don't know about you but I'm thinking about getting one of those detectors that see in the ground before you dig it up, then that will solve all of our problems. LMAO! Sorry SpiritRelic, I had to do it.

 

[Frankn]

Groung balance is actually a simple circuit. Here's how it works. Let's leave the technical jargon out. Lets just use % as a reference. Lets say the output of your detector is 100%. Now lets say the ground is returning a signal of 10%. In manual you null out the 10%. That means your detector will not signal below a 10% return. The only problem with manual is that if the ground changes as you detect , you have to rebalance. Now in auto ground balance the detector samples as you go. The only problem with auto ground balance is that if you repeatly go back and forth over a target, it might vanish. This might also cause you to loose the next target if it is close before the detector resets to the proper balance. Frank