Archaeologists are modern day grave robbers and our enemy

[Graddick]

I truly didn't realise that detectorists are an whiny oppressed minority. The fact is that "we" are the vast majority! A good example is Great Britain. But I fully understand your point. You, being from a country with limited historic treasures, except your First Nations artifacts that were looted at grave sites by your archeologists right in the view of your First Nations people! And wasn't it your nations archeologists that sealed off access from your own First Nations Peoples grave yards whilst the continued looting was going on? And if CBC was reporting accurately, isn't the University of Alberta one of the ones the ones still holding the remains of hundreds despite court orders to release them? Also, when you decide to read my quote, I stated that "SOME archeologists believe that they are high priests", That statement is in fact not mine, originally, Its one of theirs! (ask one) I too, like Sam 8, have worked along side archeologists, and most will agree that changes in our laws are inevitable. So, where do you stand on grave robbing and looting by your Canadian archaeologists that is still prevalent today as it was forty years ago ?

You're right, I did miss the "some" in your quote. I only feel that Natives have a right to demand a return of human remains and only if they are proven to be their ancestors. Whether or not the protesting group of Natives is actually related to the remains is usually the sticky widget that causes long, drawn-out debates. Besides, if we're talking about abuses suffered by Natives in the past, it would be great if desecrated graves were the worst thing that had ever happened. That's small potatoes compared to what has been done to them in the past.
As for non-Native human remains, I'm still on the fence. Some people have no problem with removing remains to study them (or display them tastefully if such a thing is possible) while others are dead-set against it. Since no one can prove ancestry to any remains that are more than 1000 year old or so, asking the ancestors is kind of a moot question.

You're wasting your time Camo, Graddick IS an archie, at least in his own mind.

Not every person thinks exactly the same way as you.

I hope you didn't fall off your chair reading that.

 

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My personal take on all this is that some archeologists believe that they are High Priests of some archaic cult that have lost there magic, not willing to except the changes that has been brought on by technology. Over time, they will realise ether to work with us, or not work at all.

My personal take is that some obnoxious, whiny detectorists like to think they are some sort of oppressed minority. Rather than accept that other people might have different opinions on managing historical artifacts, they assume that there is a cabal of scheming "archies" who love nothing more than sealing off as much land as possible for no other reason than to ruin detectorists' fun. It would be nice if archaeologists and metal detectorists got along better, but based on the venom that gets spat at them I don't blame archaeologists for seeing all metal detectorists are shameless looters.

I truly didn't realise that detectorists are an whiny oppressed minority. The fact is that "we" are the vast majority! A good example is Great Britain. But I fully understand your point. You, being from a country with limited historic treasures, except your First Nations artifacts that were looted at grave sites by your archeologists right in the view of your First Nations people! And wasn't it your nations archeologists that sealed off access from your own First Nations Peoples grave yards whilst the continued looting was going on? And if CBC was reporting accurately, isn't the University of Alberta one of the ones the ones still holding the remains of hundreds despite court orders to release them? Also, when you decide to read my quote, I stated that "SOME archeologists believe that they are high priests", That statement is in fact not mine, originally, Its one of theirs! (ask one) I too, like Sam 8, have worked along side archeologists, and most will agree that changes in our laws are inevitable. So, where do you stand on grave robbing and looting by your Canadian archaeologists that is still prevalent today as it was forty years ago ?

Actually, I have read the earliest archaeological reports in my province and came across statements that went like this.......

"We finally found a mound that the Smithsonian Institute didn't open up."

The more you study the more you realize that most of our important sites were looted by Americans!

In fact, some of the greatest treasures in the Smithsonian were "collected" from Canadian reservations and communities.

I'm not siding with archaeologists but since you are bringing Canada into this like a lot of juvenile Americans do on this forum when they don't like what a Canadian is saying, I thought I would let you know that Americans were looting our country before we even had our own archies.

Have a nice day!

 

[camo]

It's always good to notice the passive aggressive stance of our northern brothers. And I'm sorry that the American grave robbers got there before the Canadian grave robbers. I'm sure the two statements (from some unknown publication) have merit. The original intent of this thread was about archaeologists and here we are , juvenile, obnoxious, whiny, oppressed Americans picking on our brothers to the north. I have met "some" Americans that fit that description.

Getting back to the subject of grave robbing, that incidentally is going on this moment in your little "passive aggressive country" with tar sand pollution, ongoing, that one can see from space. (google earth, an American company, hell bent on showing the world what bad people the Canadians are) Not to get off the subject, the atrocities against the First Nations can be found in the link written by Dr. Peggy Blair,a well known Canadian. She brushes on the tar sands problem, but the entirety of her pfd is on the subject of this thread. I'm sure you have read her works.
http://www.scowinstitute.ca/library/documents/RPHeritageSites.pdf

The other link is self explanatory. But for you, let this juvenile, obnoxious, whiny, oppressed detectorist explain, simply because I have a feeling that you will rush to an agressive concussion before reading the links, before posting again.

America (the country to the south of you with the obnoxious people, Ah!) have and are continuing to give back the stolen artifacts. The reason is in the link. Something your MP's are unwilling to address.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Graves_Protection_and_Repatriation_Act

........And would you be so kind and post the link to the early archaeological reports from your Province?

 

[flintmel]

Living in Ct. I have experienced both types of "professionals". Seems the ones near the end of their career welcome info from collectors, both detecting and NA artifacts. Living near the largest casino in the world it is a joke to listen to these professionals hired by the tribe who do nothing more than speculate on their finds. Having been invited to the ground breaking of their museum by a friend, I heard comments made to several contributors of artifacts that the artifacts belong to science and the tribe, they were only found by the donators. Have also met a few that
are nothing more than legalized looters with a degree.. There is good and bad in everything, its up to each of us to realize this and act or avoid accordingly.

 

[Philvis]

I used to be an archaeologist, but now work in banking. I have all the fancy degrees and worked in the profession for a number of years before I left to pursue a field that would allow me to actually have money to pay my bills. My perspective on archaeology/metal detecting is typically a bit different than many of my former colleagues. Personally, as long as you are not tresspassing, and have permission, I think what's in the earth is fair game for the most part. I can tell you from experience that you would be shocked at the shear number of artifacts that are in paper bags/boxes tucked away in basements of universities/museums/historic resource offices. I do think that some archaeologist give the bulk a bad name as they do come across as being high and mighty and hoarders of artifacts that no one will ever see unless you are a student of theirs or work in the place they are housed. Here is my opinion.

I know that everyone's knee jerk reaction is to chastise all archaeologists as holier than thou type of people, and unfortunately, there really are a number of them out there like that. What people need to understand is that archaeology is big into theory. Archaeologists feel that if you leave a found artifact in situ, one day the potential site can be further examined which may lead to a Phase II or Phase III excavation. The reality is that unless something substantial is found or if state or federal funds are used to develop the area, further study will not come into fruition. In theory, archaeologists hearts are in the right place, but the reality of the situation is that many come across as pompous, know-it-alls, who do think they have dominion over everything in the ground.

Now, as an archaeologist and not that successful metal detectorist, I'm happy to tell you the couple things that make me cringe when it comes to 'collecting' in the field, whether it be by detectorists or just enthusiasts with an eye and a shovel. Burials are the first no-no. I think that respect (which is legally mandated), should be followed when it comes to them. There are many 'pot hunters' who are guilty of this. Just because you have permission to be on someone's property doesn't mean you should be putting shovels through graves to get a ceramic pot from a 500 year old grave. I don't think a lot of 'pot hunters' realize they are blasting through graves or just don't care. Either way, that is one of the things I don't agree with. I know that many folks ask what the difference is between an archaeologist digging up a grave and an enthusiest doing the same. The one thing people need to remember is that 99% of burials that were exhumed and not reburied were done so in the past. Now for burials, if they are Native American for instance, the most that happens is measurements are taken, as exhumation only really occurs if the property is being developed. That's the same non-Native Americans. Bodies are only exhumed to make way for progress and then are reburied elsewhere (that's issues that need to be taken up with local/state/federal governments, as far as moving graves). Archaeologists are not digging up bodies anymore and storing them in museums here in the U.S.

The other main thing that I wish people would be mindful of is if you run across an area that has a large concentration of 'artifacts' where there does seem to be some order or pattern to it, you may actually have come across something archaeologically significant. These are the times when it is advisable to reach out to the county archaeologist or some other professional, because it could turn out to be something significant that could broaden the general public's knowledge. In all honesty, those are the two situations I wish more people would be mindful of. I don't think that is being greedy or trying to steal anyone's thunder.

I love to collect old things as much as anyone else..it's human nature. As I mentioned, as long as you are being legal in your methods of search and recovery, I really don't think it is a big deal if you pick up a random point you see in a field, dig up a 18th century coin or mini ball from the Civil War. People who find fault with that typically don't have better things to do with themselves and they are no better than the busy bodies in HOA's who troll around looking for violations in their neighborhoods. The only thing I ask though is to not pre-judge all archaeologists. You should treat them like anyone else...until they make asses of themselves, should that happen. Just remember that the point of archaeology is to discover and preserve the past. 99% of archaeologists hearts are in the right place, but some just don't come across that way. I definitely advocate fighting for your rights as detectorists though. Sorry for the long rant!

 

[Jason in Enid]

Excellent post Philvis!

 

[Dig It Man]

if any archeologist has any dug items in their homes - they are hypocrits
any items they have should be in a museum if they say we have no rights to our relics
then they dont either
and most of these guys have huge personal collections

Yeah they are hypocrites, and not only that, I would bet money they take gold when they find it, whatever shape, or form it's in. In my opinion I think they just want it so nobody get's the treasures but themselves. They have no more right to dig, than some individual metal detecting. Laws need changed on that, because the way I see it, all land except private property belongs to the people, not a bunch of corrupt politicians, states, federal government, and Arkie's.

 

[Graddick]

Philvis, I am going to bookmark your post for whenever I come across this issue in the future.

That was a 5-star post.

 

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It's always good to notice the passive aggressive stance of our northern brothers. And I'm sorry that the American grave robbers got there before the Canadian grave robbers. I'm sure the two statements (from some unknown publication) have merit. The original intent of this thread was about archaeologists and here we are , juvenile, obnoxious, whiny, oppressed Americans picking on our brothers to the north. I have met "some" Americans that fit that description.

Getting back to the subject of grave robbing, that incidentally is going on this moment in your little "passive aggressive country" with tar sand pollution, ongoing, that one can see from space. (google earth, an American company, hell bent on showing the world what bad people the Canadians are) Not to get off the subject, the atrocities against the First Nations can be found in the link written by Dr. Peggy Blair,a well known Canadian. She brushes on the tar sands problem, but the entirety of her pfd is on the subject of this thread. I'm sure you have read her works.
http://www.scowinstitute.ca/library/documents/RPHeritageSites.pdf

The other link is self explanatory. But for you, let this juvenile, obnoxious, whiny, oppressed detectorist explain, simply because I have a feeling that you will rush to an agressive concussion before reading the links, before posting again.

America (the country to the south of you with the obnoxious people, Ah!) have and are continuing to give back the stolen artifacts. The reason is in the link. Something your MP's are unwilling to address.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Graves_Protection_and_Repatriation_Act

........And would you be so kind and post the link to the early archaeological reports from your Province?

That's nice.

I know we have/are treating our Natives poorly. What's your point? Do want me to start showing links on what YOUR country did to YOUR Natives?

You want to cloud up this thread with a competition proving which country has a worse track record? You'd loose buddy!!!!

Again, what's the point of all this?

I'll just move my "passive aggressive" self on to more important matters now.

 

[camo]

.......And would you be so kind and post the link to the early archaeological reports from your Province?

 

[gallileo60]

When archeologists get their degree, they believe it gives them exclusive license to pull relics from the earth. Relic hunters are branded "looters" and "grave robbers", while they consider themselves to be "preservers of history" and "conservationists".

I know how they are because my sister is one of them.

I think if it is in the ground it belongs to whoever can find it, just does not seem fair that a select few should be entitled to pull stuff, while the rest of us are not allowed to do so.....I was frowned upon for fossil hunting on the Trinity River not to long ago...

 

[camo]

When archeologists get their degree, they believe it gives them exclusive license to pull relics from the earth. Relic hunters are branded "looters" and "grave robbers", while they consider themselves to be "preservers of history" and "conservationists".

I know how they are because my sister is one of them.

I think if it is in the ground it belongs to whoever can find it, just does not seem fair that a select few should be entitled to pull stuff, while the rest of us are not allowed to do so.....I was frowned upon for fossil hunting on the Trinity River not to long ago...

I feel the same way. If you find it, you own it. If you find it on private land, that you have the permission to detect, you are entitled to to one half the value. I also feel that it should and be legal to detect on all federal and state lands, all land surrounding public buildings, all parks. The only exception would be cemeteries and tribal land. Private land should be on a written permission basis . Sensitive areas such as battle grounds can be controlled be a permit/ licence.(the permit should last for one year and cost no more then a simple fishing licence) Where as "Detecting finds" can be collected and bought at true market value. ( that will put the archaeologists back to work) Anything found over 200 years old with few exemptions should be considered "antiquities" to be registered with an institution like the Smithsonian for evaluation and payment to the detectorist at full market value if they deside to keep the artefact with a time limit of ninety days.

https://www.google.com/search?aq=0&...chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=portable+antiquities+scheme

The above link is to a law that has been enacted in Great Britain. My statement above is a poor description of the British law with a few thoughts of my own.(sorry!) I can't understand why our Canadian and American Archaeologists don't jump at the opportunity and pressure our governments to pass a law like this one.
Local and State museums would fill themselves with "new found history", our archeologists would have enough work for a lifetime, and Detectorists will continue in the hobby we love unhindered.

I truly hope that the above link will soon be the talk of every forum in America. Our British detectorists went to war against the Archeologists, Literally dragged them to the table and won!

 

[gallileo60]

The really bad part is, they do not want us poor stupid people to pull it out of the ground, so there it shall stay lost to all forever......Really dumb, if ya ask me...Oh well....Happy Hunting to all this year..I know I am going to really get down with my MD, and do some fossil hunting...Good luck to all, and just keep it quite I guess..........Tom