ICAHM Protests Television Programs That Encourage Destruction of Heritage

[ouachitacaveman]

Buzzgator, bless your heart,
it's obvious you didn't read my last reply or the one before it. This one guy in the waters of Florida
will have no effect on the rest of us if we will consult our lawmakers to change these new proposals.

I state again, that we
must work together to change the laws regarding our hobby of
metal detecting. Bickering about the duties of the "archies" are
never gonna allow us more hunting on public lands. It's action
to change these proposed laws that we need, not complaining about govt. workers.

 

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[buzzgator]

No i read every comment you have posted. I also gave you the info you asked for in several posts it was all up to you to google or any other search engine to find the facts that the largest majority of archies are against us as a hobby or for profit, its as simple as looking at the endorsing initials on the opening post, SAA and RPA. They will use you as a volunteer, but they will never endorse ur right to md. You had stated about private land finds vs gov land, who is the gov? We the people, for the people, by the people, of the people. Its our land we should have equal rights to it, dont get me wrong Im not in favor of digging up Shilo or getty, or any na mounds or earthworks. But with being responsible and covering my holes why cant I dig in Mark Twain, or Nicolet, or Francis Marion, all national forests? Why because a federal archie thinks that if it isnt being dug by them it should be left there. Im just pointing out the obvious, its up to those that cant see to take the blinders off.

 

[ivan salis]

when archies "ask" politicans to submit bills to be made into "law" and basically hand them a pre written bill drafted up by them to "submit" -- then they in effect are trying to "make law" and are basically using the politican as a "shill" or front man since they can not submit bills for themselves , so they get him to do it for them --

in the case of S 868 * --I think there was some real damage being done by some nitwits on county / city type "public land" that was in senators district area

being the folks that were doing the damage reportly were digging dirt to screen for indain relics --the state dept of archie was called in *

-- being it was not state controlled "public land' -- when the state archies were asked by the senator to get involved to stop the damage , they said oh , we can not do anything "because" that public land is not under our direct control * -- so in an attempt to fix the problems occuring in his "home' county ( the area the senator represents ) the good senator "puts forth a bill" to help empower the archies to be able to stop the damage

- of course to "aid" the senator --the folks at the florida dept of archie helped the senator by assisting in the "crafting" of the wording in the purposed bill , --it is very plain to see the archies "input" in the wording of this bill-- it is legally worded in such a way as to totally empower them and give them total control over all the public lands in florida . -- which is their dream come true.

this bill is exactly what the florida state dept archies have always wanted -- to be appointed as the "lead group" controlling all of florida public lands -- once they are "in control / in charge" legally speaking --its them and them alone via "adminastrive rule land use changes" who will then decide what if anything you can do on floridas public land * -- since they get to declare what is or is not a "historical area" and by their own rules --- that they want to put forth in this bill ---NO ONE CAN REMOVE ANY STATE ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESOURCE (ANYTHING OVER 50 YEARS OLD) FROM ANY "PUBLIC LAND" --without their ok (permits to be issued by them ) they will have "total control" from start to finish --if found guilty of breaking their "rules" -- you will not get "a fair trail by your peers - mainly because normal folks might goi these rules are so much BS and let you off -- so instead you will only get an administrive hearing . (ie your hosed)

my momma didn't raise dumb any kids -- I see this for what it is a blunt "power grab" being put in via the "trojan horse" of we the state of florida archies need to be empowered to stop this bit of looting .
they are asking for much more power than whats needed to stop the small problem in the senator district * and if properly applied --I'm sure there are laws that are currently already on the books that if enforced correctly could be used to stop the problem --your basic disturbing / destroying public property for starters

 

[Alexandre]

.. so you're saying this one guy, who
"supports" this new bill being proposed in the state of Florida, is the fellow responsible
for all archaeologists being against metal detecting as a hobby ?
Sorry, but he does NOT represent archaeology throughout the world by any means, simply
by this support of a new, proposed law on the beaches of Florida.

I am not against MD. As a matter of fact, I will repost my earlier link, regarding a Portuguese team of MDers that excavate on their own, with the blessing of the National Archaeological Institute:

http://translate.google.com/transla.../index.php?idType=3&idMenu=4&idPage=8&act=url

 

[ouachitacaveman]

Can't we the people - those of
us in the metal-detecting hobby - talk to our senators and
discuss the laws also, and make our own suggestions? If not happy about the laws, can't we
vote for somebody else on election day to help change the restrictive laws ?
Our suggestions to senators, represenatives, and other lawmakers
can help get these laws changed, by being mature about it, not by bashing people. Do we not have more citizens participating in our hobby than archaeologists working for the government?
Maybe WE should be writing the laws
and submitting our own version to help in our quest for change.
Furthermore, if enough people will protest these restrictive laws, and, the television shows that
work against us, maybe we could get new laws and the respect we the people deserve, by working in
a legal, civilized manner. Criticism of the politicians and other government employees will get us nowhere if not handled in a professional manner.
Election day at the polls. Your voice can be heard there if nowhere else.

 

[buzzgator]

Yes not against us as long as we turn over all finds to you n ur kind, or we only dig on dump/landfill type sites. Propaganda!! Sheeple dont be fooled into believing the archies are your friends who welcome you with open arms. The opening post may state its in ref to tv shows, but you better believe its how they feel about every digger that isnt handing their finds over as soon as its pulled from its plug!

 

[Alexandre]

Yes not against us as long as we turn over all finds to you n ur kind, or we only dig on dump/landfill type sites. Propaganda!! Sheeple dont be fooled into believing the archies are your friends who welcome you with open arms. The opening post may state its in ref to tv shows, but you better believe its how they feel about every digger that isnt handing their finds over as soon as its pulled from its plug!

In Portugal, all archaeological artefacts found on private or public land, or within the 12 nautical miles of the Portuguese waters, belong to the state (as a matter of fact, ocasional finders are rewarded with money - last week one receive 5000 dollars for finding half of a bronze cannon).

What we do is to let MD do their hobby within an archaeological project. And sometimes, when the artefact is not in danger of decay, they can be users in possession: a MD keeps the finding (but possession of it belongs to the State, so he cannot sell it). That's why a lot of diving shops have cannons or Roman lead anchor stocks on their displays.

 

[buzzgator]

Exclent comment Alex, you just proved everything I have been saying. The mentality of the Archie is that its all MINE ie archie n gov, you the detector can work for it but how dare you common mder think you are worthy of owning your finds. Thank you sooooooo very much for showing the good people of TREASURE NET (get the name?) exactly how archies as a whole think!

 

[[email protected]]

So you guys bought a metal detector........Wow. You think you're all so special because you ordered an electronic gadget. This puts all of you in a cliche and now you represent me?
So where's your university degree in metal detecting? Did Mr. Garret himself provide a special training course for you?
Like really, half of the people on this forum can't even spell simple words and am I to feel good that you're speaking on my behalf?
Who elected you? I sure didn't. Big deal, you own a metal detector.
I'm pretty tired of this entitlement attitude. Anybody can buy an electronic device. Does that make all of you responsible?
I've been spending a lot of extra time to incorporate methods in my search and recovery that could potentially earn respect from the archaeological community. That will all be for nothing if you guys keep it up.
You think by declaring archies the enemy that our situation is going to improve? Grow a brain!
It is only alienating us further.
Why are people defending a stupid reality show? What does that show do for me? NOTHING. Of course it will stir up the archies. Do you blame them?
I appreciate Alexandre coming here. How many archaeologists are posting on this forum? Why would they, given the attitudes expressed here! You have the opportunity to learn from his perspective.
Due to the maturity level here I guess that will be taken for granted. I value his opinion. What does the average treasure hunter have to teach me here? ZILCH!
I used to consider that all detectorists were my family. Now I'm embarrassed to be a part of that collective.
Enjoy your lack of rights. It's only going to get worse.

 

[lostcauses]

Muddyhandz "half of the people on this forum can't even spell simple words"

So you have a PHD in English I presume, at least that is what you portray in your post about MD,ing...
Language is for the purpose of getting the communication across. "Speeling" has nothing to do with it really.

Yet your point "You think by declaring archies the enemy that our situation is going to improve?" is good.

Anoughter topic that was brought up was leaving sites un-dug or un-excavated.

Any Archeologist can say that any excavation of a site, including archeological: will destroy the "SITE".
One dug it is not more. This is one of the reasons they do not go out and excavate everything.
An site dedicated to be an acrch site is strangely a target for folks curious, addicted to the hobby, or just plain profiteers.

Were as I suspect most on this board will follow the ethics, rules and laws with the hobbies, it only takes the few, or even one to destroy a site.

Shows such as has been shown can and will get people wanting to get rich quick. It only takes one in an area to do a lot of damage to a site, and of course MDing, artifact hunting, and just plain THing will of course be blamed.

The archeologist have a valid point about the shows. The MDer has also some great valid points against this shows.
I can just see some land owner watching the mess, and what will they most likely say the next time they are asked for permission to hunt there?? A lot of course is left out of the "show" such as the clean up and making sure the holes are filled and so on. Yet the general public will not know this, will they..

From what I can tell both sides, the MDers and the archeologist have valid points against these type of shows.

 

[buzzgator]

Lol! Who is defending the show? Does a degree make a person all knowing and RIGHT? If you are that impressed by archies maybe you should be on a archie forum not a forum for treasure hunters? Do you know how hard it is to get a degree in archaeology? Let me tell ya most of it can be done online! Sure maybe a little more to the phd. If you respect then so much heck be one. As for talking of spelling lol seriously! Is that supose to make me feel bad? You dont know me, you know zero about my education or background, but you would assume by my shortening of words that I am uneducated. ASSume away buddy. As for ordering a md, naw i went to several shops tested read about and made an informed purchase on every detector I have owned. Sry if u mail ordered urs. As for working with archies you go right ahead. As for me I will continue to send emails and hard copies to the powers that be to keep my rights. As for speaking for you or anyone else, where would you get that idea? I ONLY SPEAK FOR ME!

 

[buzzgator]

Do the little people you place in ur comments, emicons, help u understand what ur trying to say? Just curious.

 

[lookindown]

.. so you're saying this one guy, who
"supports" this new bill being proposed in the state of Florida, is the fellow responsible
for all archaeologists being against metal detecting as a hobby ?
Sorry, but he does NOT represent archaeology throughout the world by any means, simply
by this support of a new, proposed law on the beaches of Florida.

This whole disscusion was started because he posted a petition against a show. They were doing NOTHING ILLEGAL on the show. He said that a whole group was against this show and what they were doing, not just one man. So if the archies had there way, what they were doing on the show would be illegal. Do you think that would be good for detectorist? After reading your post I think you probally would.

 

[ivan salis]

they were protesting a show about people who were digging on privately owned land WITH the land owner's permission mind you -- because "gasp" the privately obtained "archaeoloical resource items " (* anything over 50 years old ) were being (shudder) sold for profiet , rather than being in turned over to some sort of archie or measum "for free" as they think it shouid be done with any found item --or better yet , in their veiw --folks should just leave all things in the ground until hopefully one day in the future some yet to be born future archie will get around to it. , long after we are all dead and gone.

basically they are protesting your "right" to do with things found on "your own" property as you see fit (they do not want the public to have the right to sell any artifact even ones found on private land --much less ones found "public land")-- they want you to do things on both public land and your "private" land that you pay the taxes on "their way" or better yet -- not to do it at all.

 

[buzzgator]

Lookingdown, i am glad to see at least a few others seem to understand the gist of the op and what the groups that endorsed the original document, SAA, RPA, would like to see happen. What happens in portugal per Alex, is no less than what all archies would like to see world wide. How is that good for mders? I dont md for profit but I do look at all of my relics as an investment, and as such I place a hi personal value on all my finds from buttons to slave tags and hafted scrapers to serrated Dalton spear points. If I lived in Alexs country I could not legaly own them.

 

[RGINN]

I did not know that the term 'archie' was derogatory, and had no intent to use it as such. Most of the sites I went to were pre-Columbian so a MD was not much good, and most were so jumbled out of context by the plow there was no possibility of damaging history. I know some historic after contact sites where I did detect. Since I apparently destroyed history, I apologize and will now publish my findings. The Kiowas and Comanches on the southern plains actively sought out and engaged the Mexican Lancers. They killed them, and took their uniforms, horse gear, weapons, and money. They used wagon rims to make arrowheads, which pretty much ended flint knapping. Sorry I didn't load this evidence up and take it to the nearest archaeologist. The ones I know would probably not be that interested, as it would not be much they could use to write up something and get published. I have only one find that is actually exhibited for 'everyone to enjoy', and it's insignificant to me.

 

[minelab rick]

I have read this complete series of posts and I don't know what this show will do for our hobby. A couple of things I do know is that if the presentation is not improved the show is definetly short lived. Secondly I see a short boom for manufactureres and I see a lot of used detectors for sale a short time after that.

 

[BARKER]

HI Folks; BuzzGator and lostcauses to me seem to be on the same basic page I am. I'm not sure about the others but that is ok for the point of what I wanted to talk about here. I have read ALL the replies and answers etc... and I can not help but think to myself that I am listening to, reading and hearing the same exact BANTER I have been listening to for over 39 YEARS folks. Now, let's stop and take a look at a few facts here ok. The first is that I'm wondering how many Archaeologists around today have as much time in the Field as I do I am willing to bet that I have probably forgotten more than these book smart so called Archaeologists have ever learned and that I have more dirt under my finger nails than a lot of them combined. !!! If that sounds like bragging then maybe it could be but to me it just a statement of Fact. I do want to take a second and say that I have absolutely nothing against Education except when that Intelligence is crammed down other peoples throats and in spite of the fact that this is done so against the "Will" of the Majority of We the People's. So I'm wondering what ever happened to "Democracy" You see, Democracy only fails when We the People "FAIL" to use it. Sadly I find this to be the case here. Where the wishes of a few have overcome the Will of the People. The reason this has happened is because for far to many years I have watched Our Rights being trampled upon by the Few because the Majority have FAILED to "exercise" their Rights or express their Freedom of Speech to stand up against these Forms of Tyranny. Sadly, We have no one to blame but ourselves. Ironically it takes situations like this show to galvanize and wake People up to what is really going on about them. So here I say that I hope this serves as that Catalyst that will awaken a Sleeping Giant to the plight they now find themselves entangled in. Folks, the noose is getting tighter every day.!!!!
Here is an interesting tidbit for each of you to think about in regards to your own State ok. It is this :
Here in Massachusetts there are over 50,000 "known" Archaeological Sites just within the Borders of this State alone. Yet there are fewer than 300 "Certified" Archaeologist's in the entire State. 43% are unfunded "Volunteers". That leaves 171 "Certified", "Funded", Non-Volunteer Archaeologists to control,(The issue here), over 50,000 Sites. Gee, I wonder how long it will take them to cover every single Site in a "proper" Archaeological context. Let's just say I'll let you do the Math ok. Every one of us here can apply the exact same Statistic Format to your very own State. If I look at those numbers properly it also tells me that about 171 of "them" are now in "FULL" control of the Entire State in regards to any Rules regarding Metal Detecting.!!! Makes you think about your own State doesn't it Yet We the People sit here and let it happen by arguing with ourselves and also not arguing with the very people YOU Elected.!!!! Is it me or is this twisted or what here Folks, if you want changes and prevent this crap from happening to each of you then STOP blaming and arguing with each other and start arguing with the Politicians who Cram this garbage through to Law and down Our throats every single day. I'll tell you right now that if you don't smarten up and listen to what myself, buzzgator, lostcauses etc.. are saying here then there "WILL" come a day when it will become a Felony just to own a detector. REMEMBER : Don't blame the Archaeologists. They are only doing their job. BLAME YOURSELVES. !!!!
Think about it. !!!! PEACE:RONB

 

[lostcauses]

BARKER
Good points.
The primary tool that has been used against the public is artifacts are a NON renewable resource, Yet as you point out so elegantly, just how many of these resources are out their??

Way more than the entire team of Archeologist today could ever find,touch, record, file and store much less display.

Yet the tool for laws against the people being involved, is just simply NON renewable.
Crazy as it is: that to a unknowing politician is all it takes to get laws passed.

 

[bill from lachine]

Barker,

I've read through the whole thread and tried to digest most of the comments...some over the top.....and then yours struck me more than most.

In a utopian world all sites with some historical significance should be subject to an archeological dig....but given the shear volume of sites and area involved the government would have to turn over their entire budget to the archies which isn't going to happen....and more than likely given the budget restrictions of most countries going forward....the budgets for these departments will be shrinking.....

So what's the solution??..............let the artifacts rot in the ground or have them retrieved out of context by detectorists....in my mind unless the site is designated historical it's better to have the items saved for posterity than let them rot "in situ"....what say you??

Bill from Lachine

HI Folks; BuzzGator and lostcauses to me seem to be on the same basic page I am. I'm not sure about the others but that is ok for the point of what I wanted to talk about here. I have read ALL the replies and answers etc... and I can not help but think to myself that I am listening to, reading and hearing the same exact BANTER I have been listening to for over 39 YEARS folks. Now, let's stop and take a look at a few facts here ok. The first is that I'm wondering how many Archaeologists around today have as much time in the Field as I do I am willing to bet that I have probably forgotten more than these book smart so called Archaeologists have ever learned and that I have more dirt under my finger nails than a lot of them combined. !!! If that sounds like bragging then maybe it could be but to me it just a statement of Fact. I do want to take a second and say that I have absolutely nothing against Education except when that Intelligence is crammed down other peoples throats and in spite of the fact that this is done so against the "Will" of the Majority of We the People's. So I'm wondering what ever happened to "Democracy" You see, Democracy only fails when We the People "FAIL" to use it. Sadly I find this to be the case here. Where the wishes of a few have overcome the Will of the People. The reason this has happened is because for far to many years I have watched Our Rights being trampled upon by the Few because the Majority have FAILED to "exercise" their Rights or express their Freedom of Speech to stand up against these Forms of Tyranny. Sadly, We have no one to blame but ourselves. Ironically it takes situations like this show to galvanize and wake People up to what is really going on about them. So here I say that I hope this serves as that Catalyst that will awaken a Sleeping Giant to the plight they now find themselves entangled in. Folks, the noose is getting tighter every day.!!!!
Here is an interesting tidbit for each of you to think about in regards to your own State ok. It is this :
Here in Massachusetts there are over 50,000 "known" Archaeological Sites just within the Borders of this State alone. Yet there are fewer than 300 "Certified" Archaeologist's in the entire State. 43% are unfunded "Volunteers". That leaves 171 "Certified", "Funded", Non-Volunteer Archaeologists to control,(The issue here), over 50,000 Sites. Gee, I wonder how long it will take them to cover every single Site in a "proper" Archaeological context. Let's just say I'll let you do the Math ok. Every one of us here can apply the exact same Statistic Format to your very own State. If I look at those numbers properly it also tells me that about 171 of "them" are now in "FULL" control of the Entire State in regards to any Rules regarding Metal Detecting.!!! Makes you think about your own State doesn't it Yet We the People sit here and let it happen by arguing with ourselves and also not arguing with the very people YOU Elected.!!!! Is it me or is this twisted or what here Folks, if you want changes and prevent this crap from happening to each of you then STOP blaming and arguing with each other and start arguing with the Politicians who Cram this garbage through to Law and down Our throats every single day. I'll tell you right now that if you don't smarten up and listen to what myself, buzzgator, lostcauses etc.. are saying here then there "WILL" come a day when it will become a Felony just to own a detector. REMEMBER : Don't blame the Archaeologists. They are only doing their job. BLAME YOURSELVES. !!!!
Think about it. !!!! PEACE:RONB