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  1. #31
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    treasurelagoon.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    East Coast Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    bigscoop, bringing up the recent FL issue, is not a good example to give, for this topic. Because in that case, there WAS potential verbage, actually imminent (facing a vote, etc....). So the solidarity there WAS very appropriate, on our parts. But go back to my post above, and notice that I make room for this type exception, when I said:

    "Do NOT do this at any place where there is not currently some reason to be doing so. "
    "And there is reason for my posting what I've been posting." I can tell you now with 100% certainty that these new shows, and a couple others that are preparing to air, are already under the microscope of those parties who are hell bent on putting any "recorded" issue they can in front of lawmakers. Trust me, we were much better off with just a few disgruntled MDers/treasure hunters facing off with authorities and a line of people asking questions about restrictions. That was child's play compared to what is coming in the very near future.

  2. #32
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    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Tom, interested in an MXT Pro?

  3. #33
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    what hath god wrought

    Feb 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartmoney View Post
    I am a 37 y/o long time detectorist (started when I was 7) and have seen many changes in this hobby. Years ago no one cared if you hunted their property. The parks and schoolyards were wide open to detect and we were pretty much protected from fanfare. Now after seeing AD last night I have mixed feelings about its effect on MDing. Will more people enter this hobby? MAYBE. Will landowners question our intent to hunt their property so we can profit from it? YES FOR SURE. MDing to me is a hobby and I love it. I dont sell anything and I have my very first wheats that I found. Id rather find an 1906 IH than find a Rev War button. Id rather find an 1940 wheatie, than find $5 in quarters. To me its all about the actual hunt and wondering who lost that coin or button and what was their life like back then. By no means is this an easy hobby. It was much easier finding a silver quarter with my Whites 4000D S3 detector in 1983 than finding that same quarter with my Whites V3i today. The reason...simple...quarters are larger and have a greater surface area so they dont sink as deep as lets say a dime does. Many areas today are "hunted out" ( not until I have done them as I say) to the usual detectorist. So if newbies come into this hobby thinking they will get $5000 for a bear trap, I think they will be disappointed. I would like to see a permit system everywhere and charge like $100 per permit. This will limit the number of people and provide some reasonable money to the municipality so its worth it. Just my 2
    Your post is laughable. No, really.
    Federal Bureau of Governmental Redundancy Reduction Agency

  4. #34
    us
    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Tom you know I have discussed this same thing with you on many occasions and I understand your position and whole heartedly agree. Don't go to a war that doesn't exist. Don't ask permission to detect on public property. If it is against the rules it should be posted somewhere. Ask permission and be respectful no matter the answer on private property. Fill your wholes, take your trash, etc...

    My main concern is that I am seeing the same BS I have seen in many other hobbies I have had. I started collecting knives when I was 6. Mostly decor pieces, Gil Hibbens, Kit Rae, United Cutlery, Frost, etc... I did not know the laws and regulations on them at the time, but once I had my own job at 16 and had some money I decided to go to a local knife show and try to pick up a few of the pieces I missed over the year. None of them were there. Why? Recent regulations in California at that time restricted owning the majority of them. After that I could not purchase them in California, I could not buy them online and have them shipped to California.

    Got into cars at that point, lets see, we built up our stereos, they outlaw loud stereo systems, ditch the stereos and lower the cars, they change the law to include a minimum height a car can be. Ditch the car buy a truck, they close 90% of the OHV areas due to budget, jack up the truck and they add a maximum height limit to the law. Tint the windows, the add a stipulation that you have to have a doctors prescription to tint anything other than your back window, and the top 25% of the windshield. Etc.... the list goes on.

    I can make the same points about 99% of the hobbies I have been involved in over the years, and it all boils down to the same problem. When the community reaches a certain level, the opposition arises, and laws start to be written. If there was a couple of lowered cars, with bumping stereos, and tinted windows running around town, would they bother writing a law?

    I am afraid Tom this hobby is reaching that level. I don't know if it is part of the poor economy or what, but it is becoming popular, how do I know? The amazing amount of "Metal Detector wanted" ads on Craigslist, and fad TV shows.

    I don't intend to claim the sky is falling, but I have seen it fall on several other hobbies, and I am seeing all of the same signs for this one.

  5. #35
    us
    what hath god wrought

    Feb 2009
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    tectin crap
    Yadda frikin yadda laddy da. I wonder what the op thinks of all this crap. Not.
    Federal Bureau of Governmental Redundancy Reduction Agency

  6. #36
    us
    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleaner1 View Post
    Yadda frikin yadda laddy da. I wonder what the op thinks of all this crap. Not.
    If you don't care, than why to you continue to read?

  7. #37
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    Apr 2011
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    As if you all need anymore evidence that it only take a small group of people with an agenda create conflict in a hobby. A recent bill being proposed from a California Congressman attacking another hobby.[FONT='Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]H.R. 4204 is being proposed by Congressmen Joe Baca and Frank Wolf which would impose a mandatory warning label on all video games. The warning label would be similar to ones found on cigarettes and would read: “Warning: Exposure to violent video games has been linked to aggressive behavior.[/FONT]

    Come on driving in 5 o'clock traffic creates more aggressive behavior than any video game.

  8. #38
    us
    what hath god wrought

    Feb 2009
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    tectin crap
    Quote Originally Posted by Twisted One View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gleaner1 View Post
    Yadda frikin yadda laddy da. I wonder what the op thinks of all this crap. Not.
    If you don't care, than why to you continue to read?
    I care. Address the topic, not me. You yourself said you dont want to start a war. So dont start a war. You war monger. Pick your fights carefully. Why do you continue to read? Why is there air?
    Federal Bureau of Governmental Redundancy Reduction Agency

  9. #39

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Twisted one, thanx for your input, and for giving my stance fair thought.

    I have not watched any of these new reality shows. Perhaps some non-md'rs are? And that in their anger they will rush to dream up things like the FL situation? Do you really think that is imminent? I mean, sure, ANYTHING is possible. All I can say is, that 25+ years ago, when the FMDAC was a new organization, they sent out their monthly mailers. Those were read aloud at each club meeting. And it was the same thing back then: "Do something now, pre-empt laws", "go in and ask everywhere lest you be arrested" and "coming to a city or state near you", etc.... And if md'rs didn't worry, they were warned: "you'll be sorry, don't say I didn't warn you", etc.... That was 25+ yrs. ago.

    So immediately they went out and asked for clarifications, permits, etc... (afterall, you can't argue with the scary stories read aloud at each meeting, can you?). And the odd thing was, that some of them were getting "no's", where it had never been a problem before. See how the psychology works?

    That's all I'm saying is, be careful. I personally do not envision the average Joe city councilman or county supervisor type watching that junk on TV. And therefore I think the bigger danger is in asking for some sort of sanctions, permits, etc... For example: I heard of one club in one city "successfully" lobby their city to get "permits" (not sure if there had ever been a prohibition, or talk of prohibition, to begin with). Well guess what their "permit" allowed them to do? Can't have a digger tool over 3" long, can't dig more than xx" deep, and so forth. Huh? I'm just more afraid of the permits you think are a good idea, ending up just regulating us out of existence, when in fact, perhaps nothing ever would have become of it.

    There is another principle of psychology called "projection". Have you ever heard of that? That's where you or I read or see something, and have a certain reaction to it (like, dislike, guilt, anger, etc...). And we "project" that we assume others see and feel the same way. Mind you the average guy flipping through the channels is not into metal detecting (just like perhaps you aren't into watching the Kardashians, or the home-shopping channel, or a televangelist, etc...). But for you and I, we ARE into metal detecting, so we intently tune into it. The "projection" part comes into play, that we assume (subconsciously) that so too do a bunch of others. But just like the home shopping channel or the kardashians, only a very small subset of persons actually watch such niche stuff like this. And the same "projection" comes with our visceral reaction to it (the anger of the supposed property owner who yelling at them to stop, etc...), because we read a million threads on-line about "how this is going to ruin the hobby". Again we "project" that everyone else has this same reaction, and every cares a less like we do, about a metal detecting program, so they must all certainly have been tuned in, etc....
    soupfreak likes this.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  10. #40
    Charter Member
    us
    treasurelagoon.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    East Coast Florida
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    8,241
    2668 times
    Beach and Shallow Water Hunting
    Tom,
    My stance on this issue has never been an active one, quite often much like yours. You need to be asking yourself what has changed? And you probably need to stop debating without knowledge, you said, "I have not watched any of these new reality shows". Perhaps, before you enter a debate involving them, you should have some knowledge about them? And you should probably have knowledge about other things, i.e., Archies are already lobbying and sending letters.......

  11. #41
    us
    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Bigscoop, I think Tom is more or less saying if we start trying to fight laws that don't exist, then people will wonder why the laws don't exist. It's reverse psychology more or less. If a speed limit is not posted, and you ask a cop what the speed limit is, he is typically going to tell you what he thinks it should be. Not tell you the fact that most areas have an ordinance that tells you that if a speed limit is not posted then the speed limit is ## miles per hour.
    If you ask a person of power if you can metal detect they will tell you what they think is right, not look it up and quote the law to you. If you ask congress to protect our metal detecting rights by placing a permit system, they might just wonder why they need a permit system, and what kind of limitations they should add to it.

    It's a valid concern, as much as our concern for more laws being wrote to restrict the hobby. Both our hypothetical, yet very possible.

    You on the other hand plan on writing up this whole thing on a possible solution, and I would agree that it should be done, but perhaps wait until there is more of a threat to be addressed, and as said in the other thread this was discussed, intended for a specific area to see how it works. So by no means would I say don't follow up on your idea, and keep working at it, because if we are right then it might be needed in the near future, and you will have put the most thought into the process. But if this all dies down and blows away like others think it will, than it can be put on the back burner until next time.

  12. #42
    us
    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Tom, while I agree with your concerns, I also have to agree with Bigscoops concern. As I said I have watched a few hobbies die from legal issues, and usually from environmentalist, or some other core concern group that doesn't really understand what they are fighting, they just feel it is wrong in some way. Most of the time it happens there are early warning signs such as this hobby is experiencing now, and people ignore it thinking it will just disappear, and when it doesn't disappear, nobody is ready for the battle that comes.
    It is usually area specific for the most part, California as you know being one of the stricter states when it comes to laws. So while none if it may effect say Arizona, or Nevada, California would most likely be one of the first to jump on the ban wagon to put another hobby in the past.

    I hate to see it happen, but honestly at this point I am pretty down on the whole thing, so my perspective may be a bit skewed. So everyone have fun at whatever they are going to do.

  13. #43

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    In any of the hobbies you've seen "die from legal issues", I bet that if you looked at the number of constituents/hobbyists, there were many more of them. For example, lots of people are gun buffs, so presto, lots of rules and laws about guns. Lots of people drive cars (everyone, as a matter of fact), so presto, lots of laws about cars (tinted windows, etc...), etc.... Detecting is still a very geeky niche thing, fortunately. Not many (relatively speaking) detectors being sold out there. And most of those that do get sold, as we know, end up in the closet. Very few progress to beyond sandbox, to hardcore relic type stuff.

    In my city of over 100K people, for instance, if a red hot old town urban demolition were to occur, for instance, I bet there'd be no more than 3 persons on it. And if the beach (20 minutes from me) were getting eroded from winter storms, I bet there'd be no more than 5 or 6 persons out there (that know enough to watch swells, tides, etc....).

    So unlike those other things you give as examples of "died from legal issues", I'm betting those were a bigger target, by virtue of their # of adherants.
    snakeyes likes this.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  14. #44
    us
    Apr 2011
    Redding, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    In any of the hobbies you've seen "die from legal issues", I bet that if you looked at the number of constituents/hobbyists, there were many more of them. For example, lots of people are gun buffs, so presto, lots of rules and laws about guns. Lots of people drive cars (everyone, as a matter of fact), so presto, lots of laws about cars (tinted windows, etc...), etc.... Detecting is still a very geeky niche thing, fortunately. Not many (relatively speaking) detectors being sold out there. And most of those that do get sold, as we know, end up in the closet. Very few progress to beyond sandbox, to hardcore relic type stuff.

    In my city of over 100K people, for instance, if a red hot old town urban demolition were to occur, for instance, I bet there'd be no more than 3 persons on it. And if the beach (20 minutes from me) were getting eroded from winter storms, I bet there'd be no more than 5 or 6 persons out there (that know enough to watch swells, tides, etc....).

    So unlike those other things you give as examples of "died from legal issues", I'm betting those were a bigger target, by virtue of their # of adherants.
    Exactly what I said in an earlier post. They were getting larger, having their own shows, etc... And that is honestly the key. You figure for every 100 hobbyist there might be one person who actually despises them, for whatever reason. You have 100,000 hobbyist you only have 100 in opposition, not a big deal.
    Add in the poor economy, so everyone is looking for that get rich quick theory, and while the experience people know this isn't the hobby for that, how many stories, and now TV shows are out there portraying that it is. This hobby might only see a temporary influx of participants, and as you mentioned 99% of them will either put it in the closet, or sell it with in a few months. The problem is during that few months your number of hobbyist doubled, attracting attention, and as many people have pointed out, negative attention.
    Sadly when the hobby dies back down, will that attention remain, or go away? Most of those people that were willing to fight the hobby just wanted something to fight, and once they grab a hold they won't just let go.

    Do a facebook search, or even a google search for either of those TV shows and look at the negative attention built up. Almost every archaeological group in america has posted something in protest, as well as written letters to the producers, the advertisers that happened to have commercials in that time slot, politicians all over the USA. They have taken it beyond reason in my opinion, but the zealous groups usually do. How far will it go? Who knows, you might be right, and nothing may come of it, but if you are wrong are you going to have the ability to fight for your hobby?

    What Bigscoop is suggesting would most likely be a last resort, and I think you guys should have a last resort ready to push in their if things do get bad. In the current situation I think everyone's best bet is some of the associations, they don't just look for fights, they seem to get notified of a bill making progress that could, or is a threat to the hobby, and rally people to protest the bill. Simple measure, but will fail without the backing of a lot of hobbyist.
    If a certain state fails to defend against a bill that prohibits the majority of metal detecting, then something like Bigscoops idea might be something they want to try and have implemented.

  15. #45

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    1778 times
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    I just had a thought, about this "hurry up and pre-empt potential laws, by asking for permits". Here's the thought: The basic line of reasoning on both sides here is this:

    A) If we don't pre-empt the supposed imminent laws, then it will be too late, later on. (this is the "pro" position)

    B) Don't fight a law that isn't here or proposed yet, lest you merely GET a law to "address your pressing issue" (the con position).

    Ok, think about this then: Look what happened at the recent FL issue. That was actually a proposed law, right? And look what happened: Solidarity on hobbyist's part put and end to that ASAP, right? So to me this shows that it IS possible to not have to run around thinking we need to fight laws that don't exist yet. It shows that even IF a law(s) was/were proposed, that it is not too late to snuff it out. I'm not saying that's a "good" thing to have to fight proposed laws in the draft stage, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if we accept statement B, above, then you have to pick the lesser of two evils. Thus let's all please don't go looking for "permission", where "permission" isn't needed, to begin with. If no permits are required, then don't go asking that such a thing be implemented. And if someone in authority DID get their panties in a wad because they were up late at night watching such silly programming, then as FL shows, THEN you fight it. Because to fight it before it even happens, has its own set of ills, if B is true.
    snakeyes likes this.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

 

 
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