Mar 23, 2012, 11:22 AM
Bigscoop, I think Tom is more or less saying if we start trying to fight laws that don't exist, then people will wonder why the laws don't exist. It's reverse psychology more or less. If a speed limit is not posted, and you ask a cop what the speed limit is, he is typically going to tell you what he thinks it should be. Not tell you the fact that most areas have an ordinance that tells you that if a speed limit is not posted then the speed limit is ## miles per hour.
If you ask a person of power if you can metal detect they will tell you what they think is right, not look it up and quote the law to you. If you ask congress to protect our metal detecting rights by placing a permit system, they might just wonder why they need a permit system, and what kind of limitations they should add to it.
It's a valid concern, as much as our concern for more laws being wrote to restrict the hobby. Both our hypothetical, yet very possible.
You on the other hand plan on writing up this whole thing on a possible solution, and I would agree that it should be done, but perhaps wait until there is more of a threat to be addressed, and as said in the other thread this was discussed, intended for a specific area to see how it works. So by no means would I say don't follow up on your idea, and keep working at it, because if we are right then it might be needed in the near future, and you will have put the most thought into the process. But if this all dies down and blows away like others think it will, than it can be put on the back burner until next time.
Mar 23, 2012 11:22 AM
Mar 23, 2012, 11:27 AM
Tom, while I agree with your concerns, I also have to agree with Bigscoops concern. As I said I have watched a few hobbies die from legal issues, and usually from environmentalist, or some other core concern group that doesn't really understand what they are fighting, they just feel it is wrong in some way. Most of the time it happens there are early warning signs such as this hobby is experiencing now, and people ignore it thinking it will just disappear, and when it doesn't disappear, nobody is ready for the battle that comes.
It is usually area specific for the most part, California as you know being one of the stricter states when it comes to laws. So while none if it may effect say Arizona, or Nevada, California would most likely be one of the first to jump on the ban wagon to put another hobby in the past.
I hate to see it happen, but honestly at this point I am pretty down on the whole thing, so my perspective may be a bit skewed. So everyone have fun at whatever they are going to do.
Mar 23, 2012, 12:58 PM
In any of the hobbies you've seen "die from legal issues", I bet that if you looked at the number of constituents/hobbyists, there were many more of them. For example, lots of people are gun buffs, so presto, lots of rules and laws about guns. Lots of people drive cars (everyone, as a matter of fact), so presto, lots of laws about cars (tinted windows, etc...), etc.... Detecting is still a very geeky niche thing, fortunately. Not many (relatively speaking) detectors being sold out there. And most of those that do get sold, as we know, end up in the closet. Very few progress to beyond sandbox, to hardcore relic type stuff.
In my city of over 100K people, for instance, if a red hot old town urban demolition were to occur, for instance, I bet there'd be no more than 3 persons on it. And if the beach (20 minutes from me) were getting eroded from winter storms, I bet there'd be no more than 5 or 6 persons out there (that know enough to watch swells, tides, etc....).
So unlike those other things you give as examples of "died from legal issues", I'm betting those were a bigger target, by virtue of their # of adherants.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Mar 23, 2012, 01:14 PM
Exactly what I said in an earlier post. They were getting larger, having their own shows, etc... And that is honestly the key. You figure for every 100 hobbyist there might be one person who actually despises them, for whatever reason. You have 100,000 hobbyist you only have 100 in opposition, not a big deal.
Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA
Add in the poor economy, so everyone is looking for that get rich quick theory, and while the experience people know this isn't the hobby for that, how many stories, and now TV shows are out there portraying that it is. This hobby might only see a temporary influx of participants, and as you mentioned 99% of them will either put it in the closet, or sell it with in a few months. The problem is during that few months your number of hobbyist doubled, attracting attention, and as many people have pointed out, negative attention.
Sadly when the hobby dies back down, will that attention remain, or go away? Most of those people that were willing to fight the hobby just wanted something to fight, and once they grab a hold they won't just let go.
Do a facebook search, or even a google search for either of those TV shows and look at the negative attention built up. Almost every archaeological group in america has posted something in protest, as well as written letters to the producers, the advertisers that happened to have commercials in that time slot, politicians all over the USA. They have taken it beyond reason in my opinion, but the zealous groups usually do. How far will it go? Who knows, you might be right, and nothing may come of it, but if you are wrong are you going to have the ability to fight for your hobby?
What Bigscoop is suggesting would most likely be a last resort, and I think you guys should have a last resort ready to push in their if things do get bad. In the current situation I think everyone's best bet is some of the associations, they don't just look for fights, they seem to get notified of a bill making progress that could, or is a threat to the hobby, and rally people to protest the bill. Simple measure, but will fail without the backing of a lot of hobbyist.
If a certain state fails to defend against a bill that prohibits the majority of metal detecting, then something like Bigscoops idea might be something they want to try and have implemented.
Mar 23, 2012, 01:33 PM
I just had a thought, about this "hurry up and pre-empt potential laws, by asking for permits". Here's the thought: The basic line of reasoning on both sides here is this:
A) If we don't pre-empt the supposed imminent laws, then it will be too late, later on. (this is the "pro" position)
B) Don't fight a law that isn't here or proposed yet, lest you merely GET a law to "address your pressing issue" (the con position).
Ok, think about this then: Look what happened at the recent FL issue. That was actually a proposed law, right? And look what happened: Solidarity on hobbyist's part put and end to that ASAP, right? So to me this shows that it IS possible to not have to run around thinking we need to fight laws that don't exist yet. It shows that even IF a law(s) was/were proposed, that it is not too late to snuff it out. I'm not saying that's a "good" thing to have to fight proposed laws in the draft stage, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if we accept statement B, above, then you have to pick the lesser of two evils. Thus let's all please don't go looking for "permission", where "permission" isn't needed, to begin with. If no permits are required, then don't go asking that such a thing be implemented. And if someone in authority DID get their panties in a wad because they were up late at night watching such silly programming, then as FL shows, THEN you fight it. Because to fight it before it even happens, has its own set of ills, if B is true.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Mar 23, 2012, 01:47 PM
This is the part you are not reading Tom, He is wanting to take the initiative to fight the possible addition of intrusive laws. He is not jumping up to bat down laws that are not already being proposed. He wants people thoughts on the a potential idea, if the need arises. Preparation not instigation. If the subject of outlawing metal detecting in currently open areas through out the Us, or in your area specifically. Do you want to be prepared with a retaliation, or do you want to wait until the matter arises and then hope someone comes up with a solution?
Mar 23, 2012, 03:26 PM
Tom in Ca said....
"All I can say is, that 25+ years ago, when the FMDAC was a new organization, they sent out their monthly mailers. Those were read aloud at each club meeting. And it was the same thing back then: "Do something now, pre-empt laws", "go in and ask everywhere lest you be arrested" and "coming to a city or state near you", etc.... And if md'rs didn't worry, they were warned: "you'll be sorry, don't say I didn't warn you", etc.... That was 25+ yrs. ago."
Not true....trust me.
Mar 23, 2012, 03:27 PM
HI Folks; Good ideas. Now if it only takes ROOT. It is "ALL" up to you guys to do it and make it happen. I hope it does not go the way of the last FMDAC we had. I would still support it ok. PEACE:RONB
Mar 23, 2012, 05:04 PM
Why do you guys wants a permit system? Do you guys ONLY metal detect in one single town? It's not uncommon for my friends and I to detect in 5+ towns on any given day. We are not going to pay money to detect in each and every town. That's just silly. I honestly can't understand why anyone would see this as beneficial. This only works in extremely large urban areas with lots of parks. Towns with 3 parks aren't going to get people paying $100 each to metal detect to find some spare change and maybe a mercury dime every once in a while.
Think about it guys. Listen to Tom. He's a smart guy.
Mar 23, 2012, 11:12 PM
I give enough of my hard earned money to the goverment already. Don't create more ways for the government to take more of my money and place more restrictions on what I do. The shows are about as dumb as I have ever seen and are destined to be short-lived. I can only hope they become a bad memory soon.... very soon.
Mar 24, 2012, 01:46 AM
This is what I love about Internet communities. What is written and what is read is rarely the same thing. I'm really sorry if we are unable to get our intended reply across to the general populous. There is no intention of just jumping out there and asking the politicians to charge us for the right to pursue a hobby that we currently do for free.
The intention was originally being discussed as a theoretical option to having all public land closed, or restricted to the hobby. The conversation coming here, is only part of a much longer conversation from another thread as is being taken out of context.
Mar 24, 2012, 09:53 PM
I cant see why anyone would not want a permit system when the only option would be no detecting at all? Years ago detecting in NYC parks was not allowed then local MD groups fought to open them again. A solution was devised to have a permit system. Now most parks are open to detecting in NYC with a permit. What a novel idea. It seems there are too many nay-sayers on here who probably live in the wilderness where no one cares what you do. By me there are so many historical sites and battlefields that are restricted to MD. This has just happened in the past 20 years or so. Prior to that no one really cared about it but too many people tried to profit from the hobby and exploit these sites. Look at the recent article where some guy will spend a year in jail for trespassing on a national battlefield. Why did he do it...to support himself by selling what he found. Its actions like this that will ruin it for everyone. If we had just obeyed the posted signs years ago, we wouldnt be fighting for this today. Would you be in this hobby if the items you found had no value? Good question to ask yourself.
Mar 24, 2012, 10:01 PM
As the OP, I wanted to clarify my point...I suggested the idea of a permit system only if/when a law were to exist or become a law. I am not suggesting we approach city "haul" beforehand...that may enact laws as a result of our approach. It would be merely a compromise.
Mar 24, 2012, 10:55 PM
I do not think that getting politicians/bureaucrats involved in this hobby is a smart move. Pandora's box comes to mind......
Permits? I hope not.
Ray S ECenFL
Wolf Pack Member
Mar 25, 2012, 09:05 AM
Been sick, too much sun Fri......but I did manage another heavy white gold band so I guess it was worth it. Now back to topic;
One of the issues that some are not "detecting" is the attention "that is" being brought to some "existing laws" that are already in place. i.e., "Just because we find it doesn't mean it is ours." Letters have already been sent to both the show producers and the effected lawmakers, so it's not like my current proposal is only going to draw attention to what is otherwise largely over looked.....that attention has already been stirred and the pressure on lawmakers is already being turned up. So we're not talking about avoiding new laws, we're talking about the pressure that's being applied on lawmakers to enforce the laws that are already out there. And archies are not the only ones sending those letters. It's one thing to sit back and wait for the typical smoke to clear, quite another to expect lawmakers to turn their backs and ignore existing laws when so much pressure is being applied.
Bottom line, this is an entirely different monster now, its being filmed and it's being put directly in the face of the media, lawmakers, and the general public. So when you think about my proposal you also need to consider the attention that is already being brought to the otherwise overlooked laws that are already in place. This is a different monster now, it's becoming a social media monster, which is much worse then anything we've ever faced before. The "full attention" is already being stirred in the loudest of ways.
Mar 26, 2012, 09:53 AM
Smart-money, you say:
"I cant see why anyone would not want a permit system when the only option would be no detecting at all?"
The problem with this question, is the implication. The implication is, that there will, by necessity, be ".... not detecting at all" automatically, at some point in the future. Thus you have merely presumed your own position, in the question itself. I don't believe detecting is in imminent danger of any more cities, than they were BEFORE the silly show. But sure, if "detecting were certainly going to be outlawed everywhere", then yeah, by all means fight it. But I just don't see detecting being imminently out-lawed.
But believe it or not, very few cities have specific verbage like your New York city example. Oh sure, maybe things that some bored gardener can morph to apply to you (alteration, disturbance, blah blah), but rarely anything specific. But sure, if something specific did happen (like in your NY example), then yeah, fight it THEN, not before, lest you merely get yourself a big red "X" on you to be addressed.
But to suggest soliciting for permits at places where there is no problems, at places where the thought hasn't crossed someone's mind, is asking for trouble. I highly doubt the average Joe councilman stays up late at night watching junk like you think "everyone is watching". For example: do you watch the home shopping channel? the Kardashians? reruns of star-trek? I mean, really, I think you're "projecting" (they psychological trick of having an emotion, and assuming everyone else sees the same thing, and comes to the same emotion).
Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Mar 26, 2012 at 09:56 AM.
Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!
Mar 26, 2012, 10:47 AM
Thanks Tom! Now I know all the info I have is totally false. No more worries. Glad you took the time to check things out as to what is really happening and taking place. Now I'm gonna go tell all these other sources you said they're all full of crap and that lawmakers aren't even being made aware of any issues or problems.
Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA
Mar 27, 2012, 06:01 PM
Hey Tom, I was only saying it if there was a ban or other force in effect.
Mar 27, 2012, 09:15 PM
Seems like the socialists are in charge taking away our freedoms. Buzzard Massie was way ahead of his time warning about this.
Mar 28, 2012, 01:26 PM
For those that don't feel metal detecting is being threatened Read about the middle of this article where in St. Augustine Florida you now have to go through the city archaeologist to get a permit to metal detect.
City expands limits on performers, vendors | StAugustine.com
By billjustbill in forum Today's Finds!
Last Post: Jan 20, 2011, 07:26 PM
By bergie in forum Metal Detecting
Last Post: Apr 08, 2008, 10:38 PM
By mrtim in forum My Daily Snapshot
Last Post: Jan 22, 2008, 06:50 AM
By RevSpongeBobSP in forum Michigan
Last Post: Feb 02, 2007, 05:01 PM
By Danimal in forum Mug Shots
Last Post: Dec 04, 2006, 08:43 PM