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  1. #46
    us
    onfire

    Nov 2004
    Wisconsin
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Permits? That would mean the state, county, city would have to hire some goof who would probably look like some short guy with his hand in his shirt wearing a funny hat with a college education knowing nothing about our hobby and setting some rules that makes him look good. The cost of the permits would rise every time this person wanted a office with a window or a raise. (Just like the goof who the state of Wisconsin hired and said picking up a arrow head is illegal. wear a shirt that says HAZ MAT and a lot of people leave you alone
    Keppy likes this.

  2. #47
    Charter Member
    us
    IT COULD BE A VALUABLE PRIZE "YOU NEVER KNOW"

    Nov 2006
    N.E. Ohio on lake Erie
    ** WHAT ONE I FEEL LIKE ON HUNTING DAY *****
    8,237
    2762 times
    ANY TYPE OF TREASURE HUNTING THAT PUTS MONEY IN MY POCKET
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel C View Post
    I think that Tom is totally right.. The thing that scares me is that the idea these days is to just put everything under the control of the government. The statements show that some of the members of this form are against us even if they don't mean to be.. Sorry... my thoughts.
    I know why do we want to be under the goverment controll more than we are now... I think that BIG SCOUP and HUNT-A-LOT both have been drinking to much to think stright or else work for the Goverment...but they are against us.......
    lookindown likes this.
    ".. Let no one know what , when , or where ..'

  3. #48
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Keppy View Post
    I know why do we want to be under the goverment controll more than we are now... I think that BIG SCOUP and HUNT-A-LOT both have been drinking to much to think stright or else work for the Goverment...but they are against us.......
    Yep Kappy...you nailed me...I'm a Government Metal Detecting Spy (GMDS) who is 100% against metal detecting and treasure hunting, which is why I've been doing it for so long. My agent number is 007B.....couldn't get 007 as it had already been trademarked by another agent in the agency. The agency was founded in 1973 after the archeological community collected evidence and then partitioned the Federal Government for funding. Since that time the agency has grown to more then 1000 agents, with many of them operating in other countries. Of course, you'll never be able to prove it because we are even more secret and better protected then the CIA.

    By the way, since the beginning of the GMDS Agency, all finds have to be turned into the agency to help supplement social security. But we do get free healthcare and some REALLY high tech toys and gadgets to play with. You have no idea how high tech our detectors are! See these sunglasses....twin long range, super sensitive sending & receiving coils, just look around and watch the 3D display on the inside of the coil lenses.

  4. #49
    us
    President of BCDC detecting club in PA

    Aug 2011
    Pittsburgh, PA, USA, Earth
    V3i, Etrac, AT Pro, F2, T2, Xterra 705
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    Metal Detecting
    generally... fishing and hunting licenses go to towns/cities/counties/states to further wildlife conservation, gamelands, game wardens, access roads, fire trails, hunter safety courses, etc... related to that sport.

    I don't think the cost/benefit analysis would make any state or city go for licensing 'metal detecting, because the cost (remember... it's a 'Government' organization... so it's not efficient) would be more than benefit since there are not a ton of metal detectorists.

    Asking for Government regulation of anything, in my opinion, is rediculous. Loss/restriction of freedom plus look at any Government run organization. They are the most inefficient, costly, ineffective, unproductive compared to the private sector... (look at the USPS vs Fed Ex)... so to 'ask' for them to start a licensing would kill metal detecting.

    Soon after licensing, I am sure politics will follow, including:
    'appraisal and taxing of finds'...
    'yearly detector tax with a sticker you will need on your detector'...
    'detecting seasons' (with fines for detecting out of season)...
    'detecting parking passes' (for parking while detecting)...
    'reporting of finds, registration, and additional taxes'...
    etc...etc...etc...

    anyone who wants Government regulation of metal detecting... please read the above list again... if you don't think some blood-sucking politician wouldn't suggest them.... think again...

    Viddy

  5. #50
    th
    Nov 2010
    Thailand/Europe/California
    Excalibur 2 1000
    1,151
    238 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Hey Viddy, you left out a qualification test, before you can get your licence!
    I think its better to just fill our holes and not hit any kids in the tot lot. Im surprised out digging tools havent been prohibited, but then there are states that dictate what size they should be, so thats how the restrictions start, little by little.

  6. #51
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Viddy View Post
    generally... fishing and hunting licenses go to towns/cities/counties/states to further wildlife conservation, gamelands, game wardens, access roads, fire trails, hunter safety courses, etc... related to that sport.

    I don't think the cost/benefit analysis would make any state or city go for licensing 'metal detecting, because the cost (remember... it's a 'Government' organization... so it's not efficient) would be more than benefit since there are not a ton of metal detectorists.

    Asking for Government regulation of anything, in my opinion, is rediculous. Loss/restriction of freedom plus look at any Government run organization. They are the most inefficient, costly, ineffective, unproductive compared to the private sector... (look at the USPS vs Fed Ex)... so to 'ask' for them to start a licensing would kill metal detecting.

    Soon after licensing, I am sure politics will follow, including:
    'appraisal and taxing of finds'...
    'yearly detector tax with a sticker you will need on your detector'...
    'detecting seasons' (with fines for detecting out of season)...
    'detecting parking passes' (for parking while detecting)...
    'reporting of finds, registration, and additional taxes'...
    etc...etc...etc...

    anyone who wants Government regulation of metal detecting... please read the above list again... if you don't think some blood-sucking politician wouldn't suggest them.... think again...

    Viddy
    All good points, but I don't think anyone is arguing most of it. Nobody wants permits, or a permit system, and as far as I know nobody "in the treasure hunting community" is actively pushing for them. However, might they be the lesser of two evils VS otherwise severe or extreme restrictions? And if they are, then who do you want involved in the drafting of the language in those permits? Just the state and their selected voices/experts? Or do you want "prepared treasure hunters" also taking part in the drafting of those permits?

  7. #52

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    However, might they be the lesser of two evils VS otherwise severe or extreme restrictions?
    This has an implicit assumption that laws/rules are necessarily going to come against us. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll stay the same. That is an unknown factor. You can say the sky is falling (and maybe it is), but you don't know it, as that's a future unknown. But one thing we DO know (and you will see ample solidarity with me on this in the recent posts bigscoop!) is that:

    a) permits and govt. control aren't a good thing (as many people here, and yourself, agree).

    b) asking for permits (if in a pre-emptive/pro-active fashion to "head off" supposed certain restrictions) can have the un-desired back-fire effect, of bringing on the very restrictions and attention, you sought to avoid! (in the same way there's ample stories of persons who went for permission, where none was required, and where no prohibitions existed, and got a "no" to their "pressing question", in essence, getting laws, and clarifications, or "policy" created where none existed before)

    So if you have one thing that is "known" (that permits aren't good, and are an agreed upon evil), and if you have another thing that is UN-known (that there is necessarilly going to be an out-lawing of metal detecting), then it seems to me that the lesser of two evils is to NOT pro-act and pre-empt, lest it merely become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    big-scoop, I distinctly recall in the mid 1980s, as the first FMDAC newsletters made the rounds to clubs, that it was the same thing then: "Oh no, act now, coming to a city near you, we're doomed", etc... (how could anyone come to any other conclusion, after reading the scary stories in the letters afterall?). And here we are, nearly 30 yrs. later, and .... whatdayaknow, we can still detect. I know you're going to say "this time is different". But all I can say is, that we will certainly have more restrictions if we go looking for sanctions, permits, and archies to love us. That's simply not going to happen. So if it's the lesser of two evils your after, then pre-emptive permits/licensing is not the solution.

  8. #53
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    This has an implicit assumption that laws/rules are necessarily going to come against us. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll stay the same. That is an unknown factor. You can say the sky is falling (and maybe it is), but you don't know it, as that's a future unknown. But one thing we DO know (and you will see ample solidarity with me on this in the recent posts bigscoop!) is that:

    a) permits and govt. control aren't a good thing (as many people here, and yourself, agree).

    b) asking for permits (if in a pre-emptive/pro-active fashion to "head off" supposed certain restrictions) can have the un-desired back-fire effect, of bringing on the very restrictions and attention, you sought to avoid! (in the same way there's ample stories of persons who went for permission, where none was required, and where no prohibitions existed, and got a "no" to their "pressing question", in essence, getting laws, and clarifications, or "policy" created where none existed before)

    So if you have one thing that is "known" (that permits aren't good, and are an agreed upon evil), and if you have another thing that is UN-known (that there is necessarilly going to be an out-lawing of metal detecting), then it seems to me that the lesser of two evils is to NOT pro-act and pre-empt, lest it merely become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    big-scoop, I distinctly recall in the mid 1980s, as the first FMDAC newsletters made the rounds to clubs, that it was the same thing then: "Oh no, act now, coming to a city near you, we're doomed", etc... (how could anyone come to any other conclusion, after reading the scary stories in the letters afterall?). And here we are, nearly 30 yrs. later, and .... whatdayaknow, we can still detect. I know you're going to say "this time is different". But all I can say is, that we will certainly have more restrictions if we go looking for sanctions, permits, and archies to love us. That's simply not going to happen. So if it's the lesser of two evils your after, then pre-emptive permits/licensing is not the solution.
    Tom...again....nobody I know of "in the treasure hunting community" is actively pursuing, or pushing for permits. Nobody I know of "in the treasure hunting community" is actively asking for permits. You keep going back this as if permits are actively being pursued by people "in the treasure hunting community". i.e.,....investigating them and exploring them as a possible option is not actively asking for, or actively pursuing them. You seem to be having a problem understanding this, or do you know of someone in the treasure hunting community "who is" actively asking for them in areas where there are no current problems or issues? If so, that would be a good thing for the rest of us to know about.

  9. #54

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
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    Big scoop, in your post #33 on this thread, I lift this quote from you:

    "Once these measures are on the table it's often impossible to turn them or to seek changes, especially true in the county and municipal regions, and as you know, not all measures are visibly placed on the table until they are already a new enforceable restriction. Unfortunately, there is no way to prepare for such things without the input of the driving, and/or opposing forces prior to the actual enacting of these restrictions."

    It's these type statements, that do make it appear, that you espouse pre-emptive pro-active strikes. But then .... yes, you turn around and say "not pre-emptive". So I'm getting mixed vibes from you. Do you see how your above quote could be intpretted to be pre-emptive permitting?

  10. #55
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Big scoop, in your post #33 on this thread, I lift this quote from you:

    "Once these measures are on the table it's often impossible to turn them or to seek changes, especially true in the county and municipal regions, and as you know, not all measures are visibly placed on the table until they are already a new enforceable restriction. Unfortunately, there is no way to prepare for such things without the input of the driving, and/or opposing forces prior to the actual enacting of these restrictions."

    It's these type statements, that do make it appear, that you espouse pre-emptive pro-active strikes. But then .... yes, you turn around and say "not pre-emptive". So I'm getting mixed vibes from you. Do you see how your above quote could be intpretted to be pre-emptive permitting?
    I never said I was actively attempting to "preempt" anything, only that I was researching, investigating, and exploring the history and causes of some of these restrictions in an attempt to find alternate solutions, and that permits might be a part of the solution. I've not "turned around" and stated anything otherwise. I think you're assuming way too much. Have I spoken with various "powers to be" who have issued such restrictions? Yes I have, and I will continue to so that I can better understand the "real reasons" why a lot of these restrictions are/were put into place. After having spoken with some of these people, do I have reason to believe more restrictions will come? Absolutely! Do I think all of the recent exposure is bringing some of this about? Absolutely! In light of this, do I see a need to continue exploring alternate solutions? Absolutely! In my mind I'm being very "pro-active" VS turning the blind eye and hoping it will all just go away, as was usually the selected course in the past. And there you go, a short but brief summary of my personal position and my recent activities. Hope there's not too much left to be assumed here.

  11. #56

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    reply

    Quote Originally Posted by bigscoop View Post
    .... Have I spoken with various "powers to be" who have issued such restrictions? Yes I have, and I will continue to so that I can better understand the "real reasons" why a lot of these restrictions are/were put into place. After having spoken with some of these people, do I have reason to believe more restrictions will come? Absolutely! Do I think all of the recent exposure is bringing some of this about? Absolutely! In light of this, do I see a need to continue exploring alternate solutions? Absolutely! In my mind I'm being very "pro-active" VS turning the blind eye and hoping it will all just go away, as was usually the selected course in the past.
    Couple of observations here big-scoop: You say yourself " ...In my mind I'm being very "pro-active". And that you are speaking (ahead of time) with powers-that-be. Can you see how it very much sounds like you are proactively/pre-emptively seeking permits (which is the topic of this thread afterall) or whatever pre-emptive solutions? So it is not unusual for me, or others, to think this is exactly what you are thinking we need to do. How else are we to interpret these exact statements of yours?

    And be aware that any bureaucrat, city official, county official, etc... that you go in to talk to, is of course, upon being presented with your topic of discussion, going to subconsciously develope immediate knee-jerk connotation. Whether it be a TV show, or holes, or archaeological concerns, or whatever. Never is he going to say to you: "Gee, I hadn't given that thought before, nor had I planned on doing anything, but NOW that you mention it, I don't think it's a good idea, merely because you brought it to my attention" No. Of course that wouldn't be their answer. The moment you ask them "why?", of course, they're going to figure whatever connotation comes to their mind, NOT that you brought this "pressing issue" to them, or else they may never have given the matter a second thought before.

    For example: There has been many stories of persons who figured they needed "permission" (or to inquire about possible rules or laws or whatever) in their local city parks. So .... bless their heart .... they waltz into city hall, and find someone to tell them "no". And when the dejected md'r asks "why?", they are told something like "holes" or "cultural heritage" or whatever. The md'r is left thinking "durned those guys who must've left holes before me" or "durned those archaeologists who think they control everything", etc... In other words, they are taking the answer to their "why" question at face-value, without realizing that in MANY of these exact same park, schools, beaches, sandboxes, etc.... detecting has no specific rules against it, and has simply gone on, ignored, since time-immortal, and no one has cared (till someone came in with a "pressing question", that is).

    So in that case, is the md'r going to lash himself "gee, stupid me for being a big red bullseye"? No, he's going to say to himself "it's because of others holes, TV shows, and archies". But this fails to ask the question "how did this come on that bureaucrat's radar, TO BEGIN WITH? The person who came grovelling into their office, with the pressing question, that "needed an answer". Doh! See the vicious circle? So I have no doubt that none of the persons you are "pro-actively" talking to, will no doubt find other reasons to satisfy your "why?" or your "what can we do?" etc.... But you have to ask yourself, would they honestly have ever given the matter much thought, till persons like you came and brought it to their attention, simply making them reach for a TV show, or an archie concern, as their justification for the "no" they just gave you?

    As I say, there are point blank indisputable examples of this pyschology happening on all govt. levels. I have given them many times before, but I'm sure you think they're all isolated, and that despite these concerns over the past 40 yrs, "this time is different" and "this time needs grovelling", etc..... All I can say is, be careful Bigscoop, because you may find places where there is no restrictions, nor would there necessarily have been in the future, until you bring this "pressing issue" to them.

  12. #57
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Well, I guess you did find something in my last post to assume and to dwell upon. My previous post was pretty clear, honest, and straight forward. I could have sworn I said I had spoken with powers-to-be where restrictions and issues already existed in an effort to research the causes/reasons. Now suddenly, you have me speaking with powers-to-be where no issues or restrictions exist. I think you're applying way too much psychology in your thinking and that you're assuming way too much. See ya on the beach!

  13. #58

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
    Explorer II, Compass 77b, Tesoro shadow X2
    13,667
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    Bigscoop, you clarify that you are only doing this pro-active work " .... where restrictions and issues already existed" If you said that before, I missed it. Sorry. I was dwelling on the words "proactive" (as opposed to "reactive"). If you are only going to places with already existing rules (or rules coming up for a vote), then perhaps "reactive" is a more descriptive word than "proactive". If that's the case, then yes, by all means we need to fight rules that exist against our favor.

  14. #59
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,015
    8757 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Bigscoop, you clarify that you are only doing this pro-active work " .... where restrictions and issues already existed" If you said that before, I missed it. Sorry. I was dwelling on the words "proactive" (as opposed to "reactive"). If you are only going to places with already existing rules (or rules coming up for a vote), then perhaps "reactive" is a more descriptive word than "proactive". If that's the case, then yes, by all means we need to fight rules that exist against our favor.
    From above; "If you are only going to places with already existing rules (or rules coming up for a vote), then perhaps "reactive" is a more descriptive word than "proactive" ......"by all means we need to fight rules that exist against our favor."

    I see anything that can be used to better our cause and position as being, "proactive". Now then, I heard a rumor that Tnet is thinking of giving you and I our own private forum just we can continue our circling debate there.

  15. #60
    us
    Dec 2007
    Philadelphia
    160
    32 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam 8 View Post
    Hunt;

    With all respect sir I think this is the last thing we need. Based on past performance alone the .gov at every level has proven to be completely incapable of using the taxes they already take from us in a wise manner. Giving them any more money would be tantamount to flushing it down the toilet. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say there are plenty of laws on the books at every level to address trespass, etc. that might come up with a guy out M.D'ing. We don't need a "U.S. Bureau of Metal Detecting/General Walking around Investigation" (Dept. of the Treasury) or one at a state, county, or municipal level, either.
    Remember this...once you give them the authority to, "license" you to do something you also give them the ability to tax it, regulate it, and ultimately...take it away from you.
    I would pass on any plan that gets the .gov any further involved in my life or my wallet any more than they already are.
    Sam...............agree 100%
    never admit to anything

 

 
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