Archaeologist here - lets chat!

[NOLA_Ken]

While I can certainly understand the desire to preserve sites where something of historical significance happened, such as battlefields, it needs to be understood that much of what has happened has no historical significance whatsoever. Just because people were there at some point does not mean a place holds the key to some new understanding of our history.

You talk of gaps in the historical record, but are there really significant gaps? True there are things we don't know, and things we'd like to know more about, but is the simple act of me going to an old homesite and finding some relics or coins going to ruin any chance of filling in that information? I doubt it. You mentioned learning more about the day to day life of average people, but what is there really that isn't known? We know how people lived because it's fairly well documented (as far as the post Columbus era anyway) we have first hand written accounts of day to day life in this country dating back practically to the very beginning of the settlement era. We know what things people used in their day to day affairs because we have plenty of surviving items to look at already. So with that in mind, what possible good can come of banning detectorists from vast areas on the chance that there might MIGHT be a few relics in the ground, when those relics really tell us nothing we don't already know?

In America we bulldoze our history like it's nothing, we as a culture seem to be almost in a race to destroy all traces of the past. Recently here in New Orleans a huge swath of Mid City was bulldozed to oblivion. I went to detect the area before it was buried forever under four feet of fill and a new hospital. A construction foreman I met there told me he had no problem with what I was doing but that one whole corner of the site was off limits because there was an excavation going on there. I didn't mind I still had acres to hunt and was quite content knowing that I'd never cover any real part of it in the limited time I had. A few hours later I was told I had to go because someone had complained. I have no idea what relics might have been found there, and now, no one will....probably ever. Now imagine if the site had been open for us to hunt until construction began.

Look through the finds that members here have posted and tell me how many of those would have contributed something significant to our overall knowledge of our past. You'll be hard pressed to find any. We dig the things we dig and preserve them for many reasons, some for profit, but profit really comes from hunting beaches for gold jewelry. When it comes to relics though, it's more a passion for history that drives us, or at least it is for me. So why shouldn't I be allowed to retrieve those things before the site is strip mined away for development or lost forever in some other way?

I think we need a better definition of what actually constitutes a "historic site". Gettysburg is a historic site.... a long forgotten home place in the woods is probably not.

 

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[MickeyMaguire]

I used to have a nice collection of perfectly shaped fluted spear-points and bird points from Adena and Hopewell indians (found on private land). I studied archaeology and absolutely loved it. I went into the fly fishing business rather than pursue a life of groveling for grants to try and make a living. But, I donated all the points to a museum where they are viewed by the public and have been for about three decades.

I see both the value to the public and science when a site is preserved and protected.

The protectionist instincts we see today are largely the result of looters from tombs in the Valley of Kings and similar sites, violated through centuries of theft. It is the sale of true antiquities (that should be in museums) in a black-market that has been very lucrative for the robbers that provoked the laws we now have in the first place. Metal detectorists might uncover a site worthy of protection and bring it to the attention of professional archaeologists if they trusted each other. If the detectorist became a valuable part of the "team" working on the site, it would fulfill many a life-long dream.

I'd love that sort of opportunity.

 

[ivan salis]

I have personally told the state of florida about a shipwreck area * located at nassau sound , florida -- a 1715 era --salvage vessel ( barcolonga) sent from havana , cuba to the 1715 fleet wrecksites that was recovering VIP's and royal treasure items from the wrecksites to be transported back to spain --it later on wrecked itself in nassau sound * between amelia island and little talbot island -- my reasearch complete with historically valid documents and with maps that in detail reveled exactly what and where it was was shared with the state in a attempt to get permits * (iwas told personally that my research was "quite good" )-- the state long before had declared the area a "aquatic preserve area" (after the mel fisher court case --the only areas that were not allowed to be applied for permits were "aquatic preserve zone" marine protection area and historic protection zones -- which suddenly started "popping" up like mad to stop the salvors dead in their tracks in "payback" revenge for mels win in his court against the state of florida and the fed govt -- the federal 1985 "abandoned shipwreck act" was a law put into place just to "block" access to the federal maritime court for salvors --forcing them to deal with it at the state level by turning over all the old historic wrecks in the various states to the states directly) --so the state archies told me "oh no permits" for you , you might disturb the sea bed bottom in the "preserve zone" but oddly the exact same area had only a few years before had "beach renourishment" dome by the army corp of engineers ** they were pumping the sand off the bottom --up onto the beach --if thats not "disturbing" the bottom what is? --when I pointed out this fact and also the fact that the very treasure coins I was after were most likely being "pumped' along with the sand onto the beach at the south tip of amelia island --what dis the state do ? give me my permit , why no --they obtaioned control of the south tip of amelia island --made it a state park and then banned"beach" metal detecting at it --

frankly stated --the whole "aquatic preserve" thing ideal at nassau sound is a bad joke as the entire nassau sound area is a very well known "high energy" zone with the sands in a steady state of flux --its constantly shifting --on the sea charts of the area --it even says so * not to trust the channels marked on the chart due to this factor--- both on modern charts as well as a chart from 1769 -- now please attempt to explain away how this can be seen as anything but "blockage" by the state of florida archies to block a otherwize proper attempt to do legal salvage woprk.

 

[Philvis]

I have personally told the state of florida about a shipwreck area * located at nassau sound , florida -- a 1715 era --salvage vessel ( barcolonga) sent from havana , cuba to the 1715 fleet wrecksites that was recovering VIP's and royal treasure items from the wrecksites to be transported back to spain --it later on wrecked itself in nassau sound * between amelia island and little talbot island -- my reasearch complete with historically valid documents and with maps that in detail reveled exactly what and where it was was shared with the state in a attempt to get permits * (iwas told personally that my research was "quite good" )-- the state long before had declared the area a "aquatic preserve area" (after the mel fisher court case --the only areas that were not allowed to be applied for permits were "aquatic preserve zone" marine protection area and historic protection zones -- which suddenly started "popping" up like mad to stop the salvors dead in their tracks in "payback" revenge for mels win in his court against the state of florida and the fed govt -- the federal 1985 "abandoned shipwreck act" was a law put into place just to "block" access to the federal maritime court for salvors --forcing them to deal with it at the state level by turning over all the old historic wrecks in the various states to the states directly) --so the state archies told me "oh no permits" for you , you might disturb the sea bed bottom in the "preserve zone" but oddly the exact same area had only a few years before had "beach renourishment" dome by the army corp of engineers ** they were pumping the sand off the bottom --up onto the beach --if thats not "disturbing" the bottom what is? --when I pointed out this fact and also the fact that the very treasure coins I was after were most likely being "pumped' along with the sand onto the beach at the south tip of amelia island --what dis the state do ? give me my permit , why no --they obtaioned control of the south tip of amelia island --made it a state park and then banned"beach" metal detecting at it --

frankly stated --the whole "aquatic preserve" thing ideal at nassau sound is a bad joke as the entire nassau sound area is a very well known "high energy" zone with the sands in a steady state of flux --its constantly shifting --on the sea charts of the area --it even says so * not to trust the channels marked on the chart due to this factor--- both on modern charts as well as a chart from 1769 -- now please attempt to explain away how this can be seen as anything but "blockage" by the state of florida archies to block a otherwize proper attempt to do legal salvage woprk.

Florida is to treasure hunting/metal detecting like California is to overly restrictive gun laws. It really is a shame.

 

[MickeyMaguire]

Florida is to treasure hunting/metal detecting like California is to overly restrictive gun laws. It really is a shame.

Thanks to the 1715 fleet.

 

[deepskyal]

One thing I keep seeing again and again is the idea that historic-era sites are not important. I disagree strongly. The historical record has gaps big enough to drive trucks through. Just because something happened in an era where people wrote things down, that doesn't mean that everybody wrote everything down. Restraining ourselves to a story told only by the educated and literate restricts our understanding of the past to a narrow and non-representative group. With historical documents we can learn about the men who paid for the railroads, but we can learn only scant details about the people who built them. With archaeology, we can learn what their daily life was like. Same goes for sailors, loggers, transients, many people of color, and lots other classes excluded from any real representation in the historical record. Further, the historical record is frequently out-and-out wrong. Sometimes due to misunderstandings, sometimes incompleteness, sometimes malice. There's a lot we can learn about our past from more recent sites.

As for private land, the federal antiquities laws do not apply, nor do most state antiquities acts! I only say "most" because I'm not intimately familiar with all 50. Antiquities from private lands can't be taken away from the landowner! It doesn't matter how significant the site is, it doesn't matter what's there. Some of the most significant sites in the United States are privately owned.

This is the problem. The presumption that there is much to be learned by archeologists yet on how someone lived. Please explain to us exactly what is missing from recorded history and local lore that is so vague, so important and vital and so obscure that you could drive a truck through the missing data. How do you know there is any missing data if you've never seen it?

This is the same argument you guys use over and over and it simply isn't legitimate.

Some of the oddest finds I see on here are identified by others. I'm talking small things like an harmonica reed, parts to horse saddles from the civil war, old Franklin stoves, etc. This is how common "historical" stuff is. There is absolutely nothing to be learned from these pieces except to know some logger played his harmonica while sitting around a campfire while his beans were cooking in some old cast iron kettle and these were lost when they moved their camp to a new location.

I don't think you'll convince us of anything when you state your abhorance to disturbing the very sites we love to detect. You espouse the same rhetoric that is used to condemn our hobby. Yes, you hear it time and again because it's true. There is no imaginary gap.

Allow me to put forth this challenge. Spend as much time as necessary to browse through this forum. Pay particular attention to the "What is it" and "Today's finds" under the "Our finds" heading. Then come back here and argue your point that anything we've found would have contributed to your "lost history hole" by digging it from the ground and distroying it's context.

Local historians here would love to know what happened to the town of Lucesco. It was built on the same site that was once an important trading area during the early 1800's. Before that, Indians lived and hunted there. There are birth and death records, local lore and documented history of the civil war era there but the town that was built later just disappeared. A railroad exchange was later built but even the records to that disappeared. I've photographed remains of roads, a fire plug, foundations, remains of the canal viaduct and several other things.
What is the historical significance of Lucesco? Nada, nothing, zilch. Yes it would be nice to know about the town and I'm 99% certain it was bought out and bulldozed by the railroad, but historical context relevance is insignificant except to know it was in the path of progress and a lesson that progress cannot be stopped. It was simply a town like any other.

The site of Fort Pitt is another example of progress. There is absolutely nothing original at this park. Long after the fort they built bridges and buildings before it became a park. They restored it based on records, historical records mind you, and recreated what it looked like back during the war. Now they decided to fill in the ramparts to make more room for people at the park. So much for historical accuracy.

If you so much want to protect history, to explore the past and fill in some little gap you think is there, then your battle isn't with us. We are the preservers, the finders of the lost sites you folks don't have the resources to locate. We confirm their existance, document through photography and display proudly and donate to worthy organizations. We fill in gaps at local historical societies and museums with our finds that they would otherwise lose to progress. Our contributions to the people keep their local history alive.

TreasureNet is a treasure in itself, full of photographs, resources, data, links, etc. If you have a question on any find on here I have no doubt the finder would explain it's context to you, unless they felt you would close off their site, which would probably be the case because you have the power and authority.

Your battle is with the state's leadership and their partners the developers. They are the ones destroying historically significant sites. That's why there are all those historical markers everywhere. Because progress and development destroyed what was once there, not us.

So don't insult us with your supposed open mind of our hobby. You stated your position clearly. There won't be a compromise until you climb down your ladder a few rungs and accept the fact there isn't giant holes in history and realize that nothing we are finding is destroying anything compared to what developers are doing. Even Stephen Hawking had to reverse his position on his own theory on black holes.

Al

Al

 

[CaptEsteban]

I am kind of in the middle between metal detecting & archaeology . I look at things from both sides & try my best to respect each. I have seen the animosity, & sometimes hatred , amongst both groups & feel that it is a hindrance to everything.
I have some archaeology/paleontology experience & training . I have been on numerous digs, did some underwater archaeology , volunteered with law enforcement , & have helped others with my detectors . Most of the time, I was treated with respect. I have met a few who tried to treat me as an " underling ," but as outspoken as I can be,, I have put them in their place, or just left their projects & let them do without my help.
I have also met some of the people who get on archaeologists nerves, too. They have " jumped fences " at night , to illegally hunt at off-limit sites. They have dug holes that were not filled in,,, dug in Native burial grounds ,, & plundered sites with total disrespect . I don't associate with these people, & will tell them what I think, as well.
I would like to see more respect to each party, for any chance of both groups to get along. I can see in some of the above posts, the animosity toward the original poster, who seemed to be honestly trying to reach out & make peace among all of us. Mutual respect & cooperation are the only ways this can be accomplished & the goal of preserving history , &&& preserving our detecting hobby can be achieved. All bickering will do is set off more anger & more restrictions will be placed on detecting , nationwide.
" Can't we just get along ."

 

[deepskyal]

I am kind of in the middle between metal detecting & archaeology . I look at things from both sides & try my best to respect each. I have seen the animosity, & sometimes hatred , amongst both groups & feel that it is a hindrance to everything.
I have some archaeology/paleontology experience & training . I have been on numerous digs, did some underwater archaeology , volunteered with law enforcement , & have helped others with my detectors . Most of the time, I was treated with respect. I have met a few who tried to treat me as an " underling ," but as outspoken as I can be,, I have put them in their place, or just left their projects & let them do without my help.
I have also met some of the people who get on archaeologists nerves, too. They have " jumped fences " at night , to illegally hunt at off-limit sites. They have dug holes that were not filled in,,, dug in Native burial grounds ,, & plundered sites with total disrespect . I don't associate with these people, & will tell them what I think, as well.
I would like to see more respect to each party, for any chance of both groups to get along. I can see in some of the above posts, the animosity toward the original poster, who seemed to be honestly trying to reach out & make peace among all of us. Mutual respect & cooperation are the only ways this can be accomplished & the goal of preserving history , &&& preserving our detecting hobby can be achieved. All bickering will do is set off more anger & more restrictions will be placed on detecting , nationwide.
" Can't we just get along ."

Nobody, and I'm 99.99% sure, is jumping fences and looting burial grounds from this forum. We have this site to preserve of hobby, teach each other respect for sites, give advice, etc. We are the better part of people detecting.

Yes we have animosity toward the original poster because he has made his position very clear. He doesn't want us detecting what they consider historic sites, which is darn near everything in their definition of historic. If he honestly wants to make peace with us, then there has to be compromise, which he is stating his position clearly that there will be none on his part. He has an argument for his position which we feel is invalid, period!

He is simply repeating the same argument any dedicated archeologist does. And we as dedicated detectorists are trying to tell them we are an asset and have not destroyed anything, if not the very opposite, we preserve and find what they can't and won't.

There is a huge difference between a dedicated detectorist and a criminal. And if memory serves me, there are old black and white films of archeologists raiding the tombs in Egypt, opening burial mounds of Indians and I'm sure other preserved films of some of the great works of archeologists. Taking the treasures from a pyramid, the corpse of a king did what to preserve the historic significance? What future generation can go to that pyramid now and see what the Egyptian's did? Why isn't there a movement to return all the looted treasures to restore the splendor of such a place? I've read recently Egypt is suing for the return of their treasures.

One book I have has photographs of an Indian burial mound torn to shreads buy some proud archeologist standing on the remains of his awesome find, after he dug it apart and removed the contents. There is nothing left of that mound now except an historical marker, thanks to archeologists.

He's not honestly trying to make peace, he's trying to convince us we're wrong.

Al

 

[easttrail]

Nobody, and I'm 99.99% sure, is jumping fences and looting burial grounds from this forum. We have this site to preserve of hobby, teach each other respect for sites, give advice, etc. We are the better part of people detecting.

Yes we have animosity toward the original poster because he has made his position very clear. He doesn't want us detecting what they consider historic sites, which is darn near everything in their definition of historic. If he honestly wants to make peace with us, then there has to be compromise, which he is stating his position clearly that there will be none on his part. He has an argument for his position which we feel is invalid, period!

He is simply repeating the same argument any dedicated archeologist does. And we as dedicated detectorists are trying to tell them we are an asset and have not destroyed anything, if not the very opposite, we preserve and find what they can't and won't.

There is a huge difference between a dedicated detectorist and a criminal. And if memory serves me, there are old black and white films of archeologists raiding the tombs in Egypt, opening burial mounds of Indians and I'm sure other preserved films of some of the great works of archeologists. Taking the treasures from a pyramid, the corpse of a king did what to preserve the historic significance? What future generation can go to that pyramid now and see what the Egyptian's did? Why isn't there a movement to return all the looted treasures to restore the splendor of such a place? I've read recently Egypt is suing for the return of their treasures.

One book I have has photographs of an Indian burial mound torn to shreads buy some proud archeologist standing on the remains of his awesome find, after he dug it apart and removed the contents. There is nothing left of that mound now except an historical marker, thanks to archeologists.

He's not honestly trying to make peace, he's trying to convince us we're wrong.

Al

Whoa, slow down, Al! Did you miss the part where I said not every site needs to be saved? I've tried not to put words in any of your mouths, I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

As for finds that could contribute to our understanding of history, I was intrigued by the Chinese mining camp (right on the first page of 'my best finds'). The member mentions opium tins - were they scattered around, or were they in clusters? That could indicate whether drug use among Chinese miners was truly prevalent, if it was confined to a couple individuals, or if it there was a communal spot in a camp. Now, I'm not saying the landowner or detectorist did anything wrong. I'm just saying that that site and those finds could contribute substantively to our historical knowledge in a community that does not have much in the written record.

Most of the rest of the finds on that first page (the only one I had time to look at this afternoon) don't really add to our interpretation of a site (with the caveat that coins can provide TPQ for a site.)

I've tried to make clear this whole time that I don't think detectorists are "bad". If I thought that, I wouldn't have come here in the first place. For the record, a lot of archaeologists don't consider those old guys real archaeologists - they're called "antiquarians". And there are definitely movements to repatriate antiquities to their countries of origin. It happens all the time. Stuff's constantly getting shipped back from museums to where it was stolen from.

For the record, here are the ethical standards current archaeologists abide by:

Register of Professional Archaeologists: Register of Professional Archaeologists
Society for Historical Archaeology: SHA - Ethics Statement
Society for American Archaeology: Principles of Archaeological Ethics

 

[leddel]

i've seen and work with archaeologists , this is the third year that we have been collaborating for an important early American project here in New England. i've seen how much time , effort and research they do before even going to a site its really amazing . they are very methodical and want to learn as much from every bit of evidence they find .three years ago they came to our detecting club gave a great presentation of what they were after and asked for help in any way , i'll admit i had a preconceived notion about them and knew what most thought about us hobbyists . I and a couple of others volunteered and we've been at it ever since , in actuallity about the only thing different from the archaeologist and some of us relic hunters is a degree because some of us serious hunters are just as knowlegeable in their field as they are. these people (archaeologists ) are some good people and i know i have gained a lot more respect for them and their work , i can say that these ones i've worked with have a new respect and appreciation for us and are amazed at how informed and just knowledgeable we are about what we do and find . i predict metal detectors will be accepted very soon as just another tool for the archaeologist to use in gathering information at a site , the young student archaeologists are much more open minded and like this new tool , like the results they get with it and will be part of the mojority ellite some day.

 

[montanagold]

Here is the problem eastrail, you came here thinking that you had a vested interest with detectorists because some feel that the shows are bad. Not all detectorists think the shows are bad and the ones who do are just paranoid that the shows will bring unwanted attention to our secret hobby :0) Truth is that all of us are in it for the excitement and sometimes money. The archies are in it for the money more so than us for sure, they are the ones making money doing it, sure the shows may permote some looters thinking that they are going to get rich but they will find out that they wont real fast. You dont see us getting grants and making a living digging up trinkets, sure we wonder how much an item is worth that we found but some dont sell. The thought that we could ever get along is a farce because Archies are more like enviromentalists where as they would just rather fight the battle then see a detectorists point of view, They are going to lobby to try to stop detecting, TV shows or not and they will probably win because they use the save the children ploy. " detectorists are looting our history" we cant fight that because most people dont know that what we are doing is so minor as far as historical importance. Maybe we will be lucky and have many shows on detecting so as to educate everyone that we are just digging little holes and having fun.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Here is the problem eastrail, you came here thinking that you had a vested interest with detectorists because some feel that the shows are bad. Not all detectorists think the shows are bad and the ones who do are just paranoid that the shows will bring unwanted attention to our secret hobby :0) Truth is that all of us are in it for the excitement and sometimes money. The archies are in it for the money more so than us for sure, they are the ones making money doing it, sure the shows may permote some looters thinking that they are going to get rich but they will find out that they wont real fast. You dont see us getting grants and making a living digging up trinkets, sure we wonder how much an item is worth that we found but some dont sell. The thought that we could ever get along is a farce because Archies are more like enviromentalists where as they would just rather fight the battle then see a detectorists point of view, They are going to lobby to try to stop detecting, TV shows or not and they will probably win because they use the save the children ploy. " detectorists are looting our history" we cant fight that because most people dont know that what we are doing is so minor as far as historical importance. Maybe we will be lucky and have many shows on detecting so as to educate everyone that we are just digging little holes and having fun.

Your argument would have had a lot of credibility had you not sold out and tried to profit off the rest of us with your lame and ill-thought out metal detecting show. Let's all take a moment to remember what actually set off this firestorm. PAH-LEASE, stop insulting us and trying to be part of this community. You threw that away and brought a lot of stuff down on the rest of us. BOOOOM Baby! Why don't you and Randy Savage duke it out to see who is "The Biggest Loser."

 

[old digger]

Easttrail; It is my opinion that you and said ''Randy Savage'' have two goals. 1. for ''You'' to get your name in the spotlight. And 2. Your in it for the ''Money''.

 

[Sam 8]

Eastrail....

You are probably a good guy...and came here with honest intentions.
I am gonna rant a bit. Please bear with me.

You have pointed out that as long as a detectorist owns or has permission to be on the property he/she is working, he is good to go.
Have you looked at any maps of Nevada, California, Oregon, etc. lately and seen exactly how much real estate is controlled by some part of the federal gov, state gov's,...and is retained as "public land"?
Where the public isn't allowed to do a whole bunch more than walking on a defined path, during limited hours, and sometimes only in the company of some .gov employee who is providing an, "interpretive tour".
Not to mention the huge and growing chunks of military real estate. (Which fer dang sure ain't open to the people )

Some of what you are receiving here is a symptom of the growing distrust of government in general, and a real distaste for government programs, government control, and government employees, which is founded in a serious lack of belief in the government's ability to do much of anything.
I know there are a lot of good people working in government, who really believe in what they are doing. I am a former local government employee, (25 years in Law enforcement) and have worked with most of the alphabet soup of federal and state agencies involved in law enforcement and "management" of that land, and while there are some good people in them, there is a huge entrenched bureaucratic employee base that is populated by people who are inept, incompetent, and downright arrogant.
This is based on my personal contact with them, not something I read somewhere.
The good guys and gals in these shops stand out big time, because they are so few and far between.
The cultural dichotomy in those agencies has not changed in years, and I think much of the distrust you see from our end in your work comes from the exposure people have had to that culture.(lets face it, grant money is the mothers milk of your profession, and the vast majority of archaeologists work either for a university or a .gov agency....not necessarily bringing a track record of good times when it comes to encouraging and allowing detectorists...who are usually members of the public, to the public lands they are supporting as taxpayers)
"I'm from the government, I am here to help" is grounded in fact, LOL.

The bottom line is this.

There is going to have to be a serious reshaping of the relationship between the citizenry and the public servants whom they employee before much more can be done. People today not only distrust archaeologists who work for the .gov, they distrust dang near everyone who is connected in any way with any form of government. This distrust comes from the frequently arrogant know-it-all attitude they get from just about every level of government they come in contact with, from the zombies at DMV to the state university archaeologist who wants to talk about some coin a guy found, and who last year was on the committee that was selected by the fed to do a "user study" of some random piece of dirt someplace, that now has a fence around it and is another chunk of public land the public can't access.

A "public access weekend" where actual citizens are allowed onto public land with a metal detector, under the supervision of the government. I gotta be honest, this instantly had me seeing a permit process, where said detectorist signs up for a "class", pays a fee, listens to a speech about how cool it is that the .gov is letting them on their land, and then they sign a release stating they will turn over all finds to the .gov so that said finds can, "benefit the public" and be placed in a "proper environment where interpretive documentation can be provided and all can see it".

Nothing is happening at the federal level or state levels these days unless it can be self supported by user fees. The gov. is broke. The people are tired of paying fees to use land that is supposed to be "public land".

The problem here is much deeper than the distrust of your profession, sir/ma'am...it is a deep distrust of anything that smells of the government sticking it's nose into everyone's business. Ask the good folks of the great State of Nevada, whom have had meetings up the wazoo with the .gov's ever popular Bureau of Land Management (there is a misnamed agency if ther ever was one)
The People always go in with the best of intentions, and the .gov people always go in with a preordained plan. The .gov makes nice and acts like it is listening, nods, shakes hands, does a PowerPoint presentation with color slides, and invites comment for 30-60 days.
After which, the .gov does exactly what the heck they wanted to before the meeting.

I wish you luck with your endeavor, if you are really honest with yourself you know I am right about this. Changing the .gov culture will change the public trust dynamic. Fix that, then you'll get a chance at an honest relationship with the citizenry. Until then, I don't see it happening.
Of course I could be wrong. Just my opinion.

Rant over.

 

[MinerGirl]

Hi easttrail, I have a quick question. I hope you can reply with your most "educated guess".

I have found something that I think is Pre-Clovis and something that, after much research, is a very important "find". Not to "give away details just yet", but through my research I can only find where the Canadian Archeologist from 1941 says," if we find this, it will be proof of Pre-Clovis people existed in this area and dates pre -13,500. BP years. etc...

So I have found "This"...I am very excited about it...contacted the Smithsonian, Wash, D.C. and have been instructed to take it to our State of Michigan Archeologist for verification. (Lansing, Mi) My question/Dilemma is:

Will my "Find" be "Poo-Poo-ed" because "I" found it and Not an Archeologist?

One recent article that I found addressing the "Pre-Clovis people" is from an Archeologist from Texas who went On and On and ON about how (basically) "Wonderful" he is to have found similar finds and saying he can now pre date-13,500BP yrs people in North America...He didn't find what I've found but I'm almost possitive "others" such as on this Treasure net site have found similar finds to his "Big Dig" but they were "Poo-Poo-ed" because an Archie didn't find it....

So, Do "Lay-People" get Credit for important finds? Or do they get shoved under the rug because they're "so called" not educated to the world of Archeology? Not that I want the "Credit" so much as the "Verification" in an honest perspective.

Your thoughts are appreciated and look forward to your reply.

MinerGirl

 

[Philvis]

Hi easttrail, I have a quick question. I hope you can reply with your most "educated guess".

I have found something that I think is Pre-Clovis and something that, after much research, is a very important "find". Not to "give away details just yet", but through my research I can only find where the Canadian Archeologist from 1941 says," if we find this, it will be proof of Pre-Clovis people existed in this area and dates pre -13,500. BP years. etc...

So I have found "This"...I am very excited about it...contacted the Smithsonian, Wash, D.C. and have been instructed to take it to our State of Michigan Archeologist for verification. (Lansing, Mi) My question/Dilemma is:

Will my "Find" be "Poo-Poo-ed" because "I" found it and Not an Archeologist?

One recent article that I found addressing the "Pre-Clovis people" is from an Archeologist from Texas who went On and On and ON about how (basically) "Wonderful" he is to have found similar finds and saying he can now pre date-13,500BP yrs people in North America...He didn't find what I've found but I'm almost possitive "others" such as on this Treasure net site have found similar finds to his "Big Dig" but they were "Poo-Poo-ed" because an Archie didn't find it....

So, Do "Lay-People" get Credit for important finds? Or do they get shoved under the rug because they're "so called" not educated to the world of Archeology? Not that I want the "Credit" so much as the "Verification" in an honest perspective.

Your thoughts are appreciated and look forward to your reply.

MinerGirl

MinerGirl, first of all, kudos on recognizing your find as being someting 'different'. You should absolutely get credit for the find. If there is actually a site where you found this, you may even get the site named after you if the archaeologist registering it has a lick of decency. I'm assuming you found a spear point that may possibly be pre-Clovis. Context is absolutely vital for pre-Clovis claims because carbon dating (if possible) can truly establish a more definitive timeline, thus proving pre-Clovis. So hopefully they can establish a site and pull some charcoal and get that carbon dating. There are still quite a few scholars out there who won't accept there were pre-Clovis peoples here in the America's, so every scrap of archaeological data helps. We have a site here in Virginia called Cactus Hill that is pre-Clovis. I still help my old professor out on a prehistoric Indian site here in Virginia and he named the site after a student who told him of the possibility of a site there to begin with. As I mentioned before, only a jackazz wouldn't give you recognition for your find. If you 'own' the artifact one thing you can do is make sure they know whoever you are letting examine it that it is a loan. If you are in an area devoid of pre-Clovis finds previously and this turns out to be one, you definitely should get some credit (naming of the artifact or site). I've still got plenty of contacts, so let me know if you run into any issues. I'd be happy to help. Keep us updated!

 

[montanagold]

Your argument would have had a lot of credibility had you not sold out and tried to profit off the rest of us with your lame and ill-thought out metal detecting show. Let's all take a moment to remember what actually set off this firestorm. PAH-LEASE, stop insulting us and trying to be part of this community. You threw that away and brought a lot of stuff down on the rest of us. BOOOOM Baby! Why don't you and Randy Savage duke it out to see who is "The Biggest Loser."

Its pretty apperant who the biggest looser is ^ I have been a part of this community long before you were, Just because Team ATC was choosen to do a show doesent mean that we have no experiance, I could out hunt you any day of the week. Its blowhards like you that make us look bad not shows.

 

[curiousfinds]

Archeologists as "experts" question

In short...I requested the estimated age of a particular sedimentary layer on a near-by ocean cliff, I was told 1 to 5 million years old.
When I offered to show +man made" relics found from this sedimentary layer, I was ignored.
When I sent, (with permission), to the curator of a Nationally renowned historical Museum, he said "these items were never touched by human hands". Yhe box returned, had never been opened.
This has happened to me 3 times,
However, I have studied and know 'enough' to know that whet my findings are, are what they are. From pre-eanderthal man - in what is now California.

Why aren't ancient finds "finds" unless an archeologist, or other text book taught expert the finder of such?

Smithsonian is acknowledging that man existed before the books - yet no-one wants to admit to man being in this part of the world...Maybe because the contents were joined then??
who knows, wish they would answer my questions... Ha!
<Language & Symbols | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program>
<Cro-Magnons and Humans - Nieznana Epoka>

I do mean this with 'respect', and a reply with a sincere answer.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Please learn to spell, or at at least use the spell check. That will give you a -little- more credibility, not much, but a little. It is responses like the one below that makes it clear you have NO business representing me, or our hobby. You don't even know me, so how can you "out hunt" me? Just go away and stop damaging our stature, and our hobby as a whole.

Its pretty apperant who the biggest looser is ^ I have been a part of this community long before you were, Just because Team ATC was choosen to do a show doesent mean that we have no experiance, I could out hunt you any day of the week. Its blowhards like you that make us look bad not shows.

 

[montanagold]

I have no interest in representing you. You do a good enough job of that on your own. I say I would out hunt you because your detrol and aleve would probably quit working after an hour or so. After reading some of your posts its pretty clear that your just another closed minded geriatric that likes to argue with people more than anything. Mind your words buddy.