45-70 BRASS

[oldrailroader]

Hello,just joined this forum.I look forward to particating.Right now,I'd appreciate a little help.I need 3 or 4 unstomped,uncracked,dug brass for a 45-70 rifle.I have a few lead bullets.I would like to put them together for display.If anybody has a few,please contact me.I would like the headstamps to be of the Indian War period.I you have them,please let me know of prices incl. S/H.A picture would be great.Thanks,hope to get a reply soon.
Terry [email protected]
P.S. I'm just starting M/T I've had 2 heart attacks and severe diabetes.My doc said to get exercise.Hate walking so I'm gonna something that I always wanted to do

 

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[Number9]

I have the rifle, but not the old brass.
Run a search on Google for "cartridge collectors"... yes, they are such people!
My 45-70 is a U.S. Springfield Trapdoor 1873.

Welcome to the board!
-Wayne

 

[Citiboy289]

Another good idea is EBAY Search word DUG

 

[samking73]

I have (and am looking at right now) a 45/70 unfired round from 1883, it also has a R and a F on the rim with the date.. Don't really know if I would want to get rid of it but would consider it, I guess. The case looks to be copper, not brass, at least it is really red looking. Its soft lead RN. I kind of keep it with my Civil War relics Ive dug.

 

[BosnMate]

The early 45-70 ammunition was inside primed without a head stamp. The earliest head stamp is a raised US Carbine, and there were only a few of those manufactured during the month of July, 1874, so one of those cartridges loaded and in decent shape will bring $300 +. The early 45-70 cartridge case itself is made from gilding metal, which is mostly copper if not all copper. The 73 Springfield trap door rifle and carbine came into the service in 1873, and except for the raised US Carbine, there was no head stamp for several years, but I don't remember exactly when they started head stamping. The inside primed cartridges also have a crease near the base of the case to hold the primer cup in place. The earliest cartridges had a bit of a gap in the creases, and later the gap narrowed. Originally the cartridge was loaded with a 420 grain bullet, over 70 grains of black powder, while the carbine cartridge was exactly the same from the outside, only it had 55 grains of powder with wads to fill the space left from the reduced charge.
Here is an example of the first head stamp used to tell the difference from the rifle cartridge. In 1879 Springfield Armory did some testing and adopted a 500 grain bullet. The outside primed or reloadable cartridge kind of overlapped, and they were still making inside primed into the 1880's.
The difference in the two types of priming. These photos show the cartridge and the head stamp. Also the difference between the 420 and the 500 grain bullet is noticeable. The short cartridge on the left of the second photo is a blank for training horses.
Here is an easy to see head stamp. It's inside primed, R is for rifle, if there was a c it would mean carbine, F is Frankford Arsenal, 5 means it was loaded in May, and 81 means 1881.
These have a couple of interesting variations, the second from the left is a gatling gun blank, and to the right of is is a copper cased inside primed. Anyhow, I know this is way more than you asked for, but you hit a subject near and dear to me. I shoot both a 73 rifle and carbine, both originals, and I'm kind of a nut for the Indian Wars. The problem with finding you a non damaged dug case is even though the inside primed case wasn't supposed to be reloadable, the Indians were able to reload them, so there was a general order issued that all fired empties were to be stomped and flattened. So it is a rare find to dig one that hasn't been flattened. I have a couple I dug, and I'm sorry, they were lost by a soldier in 1877, I won't part with them. If you don't mind a couple of more modern brass empties I can provide you with them, with either fired or unfired primers. PM me if you would like to have those. I've also discovered that the dug loaded ones the bullets are crumbling. I don't know what the alloy was in the lead in those days, but I expect the electrolysis between the different metals has a lot to do with that.

 

[BosnMate]

Here is what I'm talking about on the dug loaded bullets. The one on the right got water in it, and then in the freezing winter it the ice split the cartridge in two. Note the bullet on the broken one, it's like it's crumbling, and has actually gained a little in size. The other one survived in a little better shape, but the tip of the bullet is starting to do the same thing. These are inside primed, no head stamp, 45-55 carbine loads, because the wadding can be seen in the split cartridge. To see what I'm talking about click on the photo to enlarge it.
Note the wide gap in the crease for the inside priming, which also means an early cartridge, probably manufactured in 74 or 75.

 

[Red James Cash]

Thats one of the problems idiot Custer had at little bighorn.The 45-70 shells were copper and wouldnt eject half the time.Soldiers had to try to get the casing out of the chamber using their knives.Many casings were found with gouge marks from extracting them with a knife point.

 

[samking73]

Here are some pics of the one I have. Sorry, theyre not too great of pictures. Its dark now and I have to have daylight for my camera. I hadn't looked at this bullet in years and have a few other ball type rounds from the 30s and 40s.......somewhere. But I just now noticed the number 11 on the other side.

Lets see if I added these correctly.

 

[truckinbutch]

Holy moly ! what an informative thread . My .45-70 of choice is a Pedersoli Quigly Model Sharps . Sorry that the only brass I could offer would be modern .
Bosn , thanks for sharing your expertise .

 

[samking73]

Thats one of the problems idiot Custer had at little bighorn.The 45-70 shells were copper and wouldnt eject half the time.Soldiers had to try to get the casing out of the chamber using their knives.Many casings were found with gouge marks from extracting them with a knife point.

I have read that they found broken knife blades too. I didn't know it was from the copper cases splitting though. I just knew their rifles had electing problems. I always thought this case looked to be copper but was never sure.

 

[samking73]

I have an Pedersoli double 12 gauge muzzle loader that I inherited from my Grand Father. My friend killed a turkey with it but Ive only played around with it. It took a while figuring out a good load to get it to pattern decently. I would love to have a 45-70.

 

[BosnMate]

Holy moly ! what an informative thread . My .45-70 of choice is a Pedersoli Quigly Model Sharps . Sorry that the only brass I could offer would be modern .
Bosn , thanks for sharing your expertise .

Your Quigly Sharps is on my wish list.

 

[BosnMate]

Thats one of the problems idiot Custer had at little bighorn.The 45-70 shells were copper and wouldnt eject half the time.Soldiers had to try to get the casing out of the chamber using their knives.Many casings were found with gouge marks from extracting them with a knife point.

That's a weakness of the trap door gun. I guess the copper cases the extractor would actually pull through the case, but I was shooting my carbine with modern brass on a hot, dry day, and I had two empties stick. The extractor actually popped around the brass case and wouldn't budge it. I have a later model carbine with the stuck shell extractor in the butt plate, and was able to remove them. So even if the extractor didn't pull through the copper, it could have easily popped around it, and Custer's men didn't have the stuck shell option, they are the reason the army put them in the later carbines.

 

[truckinbutch]

Your Quigly Sharps is on my wish list.

It will make your dreams come true . I got mine during the first production year . I've had a ball with it . Has never let me down . My skill/lack of has failed it from time to time at long distance .

 

[oldrailroader]

Hey everybody,thank-you so much for the GR8 information.I'm still gonna try to get a few. Terry

 

[bravowhiskey]

Best of luck with your new rehab method. And welcome to the site.

 

[phishisgroovin]

and here im looking at all mine now lol!
nothing too old, sorry

 

[Frankn]

Holy moly ! what an informative thread . My .45-70 of choice is a Pedersoli Quigly Model Sharps . Sorry that the only brass I could offer would be modern .
Bosn , thanks for sharing your expertise .

I thought the Quigly was 45/100. There was a movie about it called Quigly Down Under staring Tom Selleck. Loved that movie. Frank
I have a 45/100 cartridge I got from NRA.