Treasure, Tombs and Tolas - Finding Lost Cities and Relics in South America

[rock]

Well to get back on subject. When I get permission from the land owner to look for treasure of all kinds. One of the first things I do is get the address of the property. I then google earth it to see the whole area. What I am looking for is high ground and water. With using GE you can go back a # of yrs to see what the property looked like before and present. I then trace the water to see the source if there is one like a spring for fresh water which was needed for drinking. I look for possible camp sites as too high the hills are shaped and am looking for flat spots on top of them that are close to the water. But most of all I only hunt on private property where I have permission to hunt and I always ask the owner before I dig to make sure it is OK to do so. I love to explore and enjoy it. This was from my last hunt. It is now full of crops so no hunting till the winter for me.

 

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[Relic2010]

Wow! Lots of response!
First off, Tom, I understand your concerns and why you questioned the post. And you're right, some people are after investors. Always good to be careful.

Secret Canyon, love the picture! Although in my defense, I'm NOT an archaeologist...I said I used to be one, not one anymore. Haven't been for a long time.

Muddyhandz, I understand you concerns. I do hold different opinions. As an archaeologist, I was trained to excavate tombs. I would not do so, however, even now, if those tombs were held in reverence by living descendants. We are treasure hunters and a large percentage of such items are found in ancient tombs, it's a fact. There are, however, ways to treat the dead with respect, and other ways not to. We don't for example, shatter bones to get to artifacts. We carefully place them to the side and everything done is 'neat', for a better word. Not ideal, but museums and a great part of history would be unknown to us if things were not done. Nor is the disturbance of tombs always avoidable. In some countries, you cannot even take a step without walking over burials or tombs. They have to be disturbed if any sort of building is to occur. As I said, many governments do give out permission. As for the descendants of those disturbed...when the particular indian locals we met were not searching for tombs themselves, they were trying to feed their children, living in poverty. We gave the idols uncovered in those tombs to the indians, and I for one, hope they do sell them for monetary gain, since they can't even afford medicine half the time. Under such circumstances, you don't sacrifice the future for the sake of the past. Lastly, the Jama tomb we uncovered was in the bank of a river. Over time, the river had cut into it and was slowly eroding everything out of it, so it would have been lost anyway. Usually, under such conditions, there are no human remains to speak of as they have long dissappeared due to disintegration. I'd also point out that treasure hunting gave rise to archaeology and the first archaeologists were treasure hunters.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Tom, your record is skipping again.....Here, let me nudge it a bit.

PERMISSION TO DIG BURIALS!

Local sandbox.....give me a break. Lol.

 

[Relic2010]

Hey Rock,

Nice lithics! Water is a constant in searching for sites, and unless the water has risen or changed course since the area was inhabited, (and it may well have done, let's face it), you should check a few hundred meters back from it. Great idea to look for springs. Many religions viewed such sites as sacred and would hold many ceremonies there, or live there, aside form it's practical usage of course. This is due to animism, or nature worship, which many ancient religions entailed. It can often be seen in the veneration of natural features such as mountains, which became holy mountains, for example. In ecuador, flat topped mountains were much favoured for ceremonail sites as they were believed to be holy sites closer to the gods. It's also important to take a look at how nature will distribute lithics around...carried by water, buried by wind, and uncovered again, etc. Going back to natural features, caves are also prominant in early cultures, not just for their practical use, but for their symbolism of the underworld.

 

[Muddyhandz]

Relic2010, I wrote a good paragraph but changed my mind as I have better things to do today.
Also, I'm defending non-white, non-christian graves which would be a losing battle.
If it were a cemetery (and in North America) then there would be plenty of people disapproving but everyone loves a good Indiana Jones story so I'd be wasting my time.
I'll just fade away now.

 

[Relic2010]

Rock, do you do any historical book research? And what about past water sources that may have dried up or gone extinct?? Do you factor them into your search as well? Scarred trees as possible sign posts to an extinct village?

 

[Relic2010]

Muddyhandz, have fun doing whatever it is you do. When it comes to precolumbian tombs, many locals simply don't care. It's like an egyptian getting upset over excavations at Giza...they don't consider it a violation, they're interested in what's in them. Or don't care at all. Same with Celts in Europe and modern Europeans, or roman tombs, etc. Sure, there are some burials venerated by indigenous, and these should not be touched. I'll agree on that. Now can we focus on the point of the thread?

 

[rock]

Rock, do you do any historical book research? And what about past water sources that may have dried up or gone extinct?? Do you factor them into your search as well? Scarred trees as possible sign posts to an extinct village?

I do at times. The creek where these were found near was a secret creek to the Indians from what I have read. I cant see it being so though cause I dont see any reason for it be. It looks just like a normal creek to me. I did however read during the trail of tears this creek was one of the ones thought to hold the secret gold that the Indians might of hidden their gold at. I am looking for any signs from the past just in case it is there but so far I havent found any. The periods I have found is from Archaic and all the way to Mississippian out there. Different levels for different periods. The Archaic stuff is closer to the creek and the Mississippian stuff is further up a hill. I guess the water has risen from time to time or there wouldnt be any reason for it to be in different levels on the hillside. I still enjoy looking weather it be gold or just flint.

 

[Relic2010]

Ok, Rock. Let’s assume a secret creek means a sacred creek, right? You mentioned that you didn’t see any reason for it to be a sacred/secret creek. Like I said before, animism is the basis of many ancient religions. It is the belief that the natural landscape is filled with spirits or mini deities. The Shinto religion of Japan is a good example of this. Shinto believes that Kami, or spirits, inhabit natural features. So Features such as Mt. Fuji, in Japan, are believed to be actual gods themselves. Remnants of such beliefs may even be found in the bible. You’ve got God’s holy mountain, Sinai, and even Jacob wrestles with an angel at a river (interpreted by some biblical scholars as originally meaning one of the nomadic generic deities of the landscape, this time, the spirit of the river who didn’t want Jacob to cross through it’s waters). Getting back to your creek, we can see how this applies. Barring the very good possibility that some significant event may have occurred here in the distant past to make it sacred, animism is almost certainly at play here. If I’m not mistaken, Native American religions are strongly nature based, aren’t they? So now that we’ve seen the likelihood of the stream having animistic significance, let’s move on to your gold. Under such circumstances, I’d take a completely different view which might help you in your search. First off, I would stop thinking of that gold as merely buried treasure. It is not. Take the time to see it from the perspective of the Native Americans and their animistic beliefs. They are not concealing gold. They are entrusting gold, taken from their enemies, gold for which their people may have been killed, to the deity or spirit of the creek to guard. Obviously, the creek’s spirit helped them in the past. It gave them water, and gave the landscape life. It may even flow year – round, which would make it more powerful than other creeks which seasonally dry up. Knowing the benigness of the deity, they have trusted it to conceal their gold. What you have there Rock, is a votive offering. Votive offerings are found on every inhabited continent, and are as old as mankind itself. Basically, they consist of valuable items concealed as a religious offering to a deity. You find many of them buried outside of temples in Europe and the Mid East. There are two basic types: buried and submerged. Buried is concealed in the ground, as the name suggests. Submerged means being concealed by water. Often, in the New World, this means being thrown into deep lakes and pools. The Golden Sun Disk of the Incas was believed to have suffered this fate, being thrown into the deep lake of Titicaca, Bolivia, when the priests heard about the coming Spaniards. It was not only concealment, but an offering to the lake goddess to keep the sacred treasure safe (these were holy objects, not revered for their material value, remember, and they didn’t want the Spaniards getting them). I believe that the vast Incan hoards of the Llanganatis, the ransom that would have been used to save the Incan Emperor’s life, had he lived, and which was hidden in the obscure desolate mountain range, can be thought of in the same way. You have to remember that the ransom of the Incan Emperor, Atahualpa, was stripped from all the religious temples across the empire. They were sacred treasures. And so I think that they were entrusted to one of the mountain gods as a votive offering for concealment. Which is different from a motivation for merely concealing gold for it’s monetary value, and makes all the difference in the world when it comes to picking a hiding place. But I digress (I tend to do that). I’d first find out who the tribe or people of the region were, especially those in the area at the time of the tail of tears. Then, I’d look closely at their religious beliefs, especially ay any sorts of offerings they made. Votive offerings. Find out how they made them and if there was a pattern they used (did they tend to hide such sacred caches in water, or under important trees, or on hills, etc). Then go back to your topo maps of the area, and try and identify likely places that such gold would have been hidden by the tribe. Remember, that it is not that easy. You are assuming a lot. You’re assuming that the source text you read is correct and that the gold is there. Can you find any other reliable references to this gold? If you’re going to put in effort, make sure that it’s there. Secondly, the gold may be buried deep. In which case, metal detectors might not do…more of a job for magnetometers. The bummer is, they cost money. Mississipian culture is one of the most fascinating cultures of North America from my perspective! Any connection between the creek and the earlier culture? Could that be the reason why the later NA believed it was sacred? Was the gold definitely hidden near the creek, or was it deposited in the ruins of the Mississippian culture (on a hill)? If there are any old wells nearby, you might want to look at those as well. In many cultures across the world, from South America, to the Mediterranean to Asia and the Middle East, well have been quick and nasty ways of disposing and concealing valuables when suddenly faced with danger. In addition, they have also been held to be sacred by many ancient cultures, especially when connected to a spring (for example, later Irish Christian belief in a ‘blessing well’ may actually hearken back to pre – Christian Celtic belief in a pagan deity residing there, which in turn goes back to an animistic origin). The idea of the wells significance is simply transferred from one religious culture to another. This is how wishing wells originally started. The wish was actually directed as a votive offering to a deity inhabiting a well or spring in ancient times, but with the passing of time, the beliefs were forgotten, and only the practice was remembered, though not the reason for it. Hope that helps. Sorry for getting a bit off track. I love theories, I guess. Any thoughts?

 

[rock]

Well the creek as far as I know has never dried up and hasnt strayed from its normal for even many yrs in the past. You cant use a boat on it so by the rules it is ok to consider private land. The depth is only a foot or so for most of it. There is a few deep spots just like any other creek. There is one spot just below where the village was and there is some large limestone deposits in rock form. They are flat on top so standing is no problem. They are the only rocks like them in the whole creek from what I have seen. Could of been a place to wash as in taking baths. Could of been used for sacred purposes. And yes secret is sacred. There is hills along the creek but have been leveled for planting modern crops. I dont know if they were always leveled like that or just in the past yrs. There is one big hill above another hill that is half its size. I havent been able to get to the top yet cause the crops are planted. I will though. Maybe the view from the top of the hill will reveal something along the creek if the trees dont get in the way. I have some spots marked on my maps I want to check but it is the wrong time of the yr to get to them. I will check them when the time is rite. Thanks for the history lesson I found it very interesting, rock

 

[Olmec1]

Relic ! I have to say, I agree with your whole treasure hunter Point of view! I have a Pre-columbian piece that has been passed down from my Grandfather. I have been searching for some time now, for someone who could help me learn a bit more about it's authenticity! do you have an e-mail were I could send you some pics of it?

 

[bigscoop]

Reading this thread with interest and I will say this - "the information train between the treasure hunter and the scholarly is quite the train wreck" which has occurred, in my opinion, simply due to factors such as pride and intolerance. What is sad is that this enduring battle has even infected things on the local level, i.e., libraries, historical societies, and even museums. Is the local information there? Sadly, this can sometimes depend on who you are and what your motives may be. This is a pretty sad state of affairs considering that most of these places are funded by donations and public dollars. In my opinion the current laws and "underground systems" have only created a situation that stalls progress, limits discoveries, limits education, and will forever allow some discoveries to remain in the dark. Imagine being fearful of the great discovery one has just made. Welcome to the world of the treasure hunter, the very people, as has already been mentioned, who have discovered a great deal of what's been found. The system needs to change but until then it is the system that has been created and it is the system that is actively in place. Sad but true.

 

[Msbeepbeep]

Mr. Jones?