Discovery of Nuevo Mexico (New Mexico) in 1581.

[Tr.Hnt3r]

I'm wondering if anyone has any information on the 11 silver mines that were found during the 1581 expedition that discovered Nuevo Mexico. Felipe Escalante, Hernan Gallegos, Hernando Barrando, Francisco Sanchez Chamoscado, Fray Bernardino Beltran and a few others were all part of the discovery.

Sorry, a little bit misleading Fray Bernardino Beltran was part of the 1582 expedition lead by Antonio de Espejo, with 15 soldiers accompanying them.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Well, put it this way: I *know* that "lost mine" stories are so intriguing, eh ? Like a fun ghost story, eh ? But think about it: With today's geological scientific know how and instruments, to find the best ore deposit regions, then there is NOT going to be any magical mine that out-does modern locations. I mean, today's mining industry knocks themselves silly to discover and exploit the best assay-result regions. Right ? So do you think a few bands of scraggly explorers that had come that far north would find something better ?

This is assuming you were meaning for potential of mining/prospecting purposes. Or were you referring to camps where they were living/staying at the time? Like for ghost-townsy purpose hunting.

 

[Tr.Hnt3r]

A little bit of both, relic hunting is always fun! Who knows, there might be some coins that were dropped. I've found coins, a silver button and other items in the past and am always looking for a new location to explore. I also enjoy the story behind the places that I go. I like to obtain as much information about the place as possible. I think finding out about the stuff is as interesting as actually finding items that you are looking for.

For instance: in the letter to the king where Felipe Escalante is giving details about the discovery of Nuevo Mejico (can't place accent over the e) in 1581 he states that a man by the name of Antonio de Espejo accompanied by a Fray and 15 soldiers which came ten months after him found many pueblos and learned of a great lake that had many towns around it and the people traveled in canoes with two big balls the color of brass on the bow of the canoes. Escalante also mentioned that Espejo was leaving with eight accompanying him to search for the great lake.

I think it would be fun to find one of those balls and have a little bit of background on what it was used for.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The "many pueblos" they speak of (some with elaborate cliff dwellings, etc...) would have been pre-history indians. And alas, they had no refined metals, nor use of gold up here. The only indians collecting/using gold, were the ones fabled of south american and Mexico city fame/lore. The north american indians, barring some use of naturally occurring crude copper, didn't collect or make use of gold. Thus as fun as it is to imagine (the lore of "lost mines" and such ), there isn't going to be any balls of gold.

As for explorer campsite relics (for ghost-townsy hunting), bear in mind that even though, yes, some European explorers had ventured into what is now AZ, NM, TX, etc... by that time, they were EXTREMELY far from their sources. Eg.: having come all the way north through the Chihuahua desert. Their supplies (coins, relics, etc...) would not have been very numerous for a scraggly party of that era. Not that I wouldn't, of course, try (if you could pin down where the Europeans for-sure were @ such an early time). But to give you an example: Look at any mission churches of NM, AZ, etc... And you will see very sparse conditions, when compared to the mission churches of CA. Yes, CA was much later, but in-so-far as attention by Spain, supplies brought, etc... you can see the difference in comparing the locations.

I have heard of reales of the pre-western era being found in the AZ, NM, UT, and TX area, but to find coins that were lost in the 1500s, is quite speculative. If you find them (or any relics conclusively of this period), be sure to post pix . That would be museum item for sure.

 

[Tr.Hnt3r]

I appreciate your knowledge and feedback. I was mentioning the grandes pelotas del color de laton (big balls the color of brass) on the front of the canoes because they were mentioned in the document about the discovery of New Mexico all be it the natives in that area obviously did not have canoes with the big balls but gave word of peoples that did.

I was curious if anyone had found anything like that around any of the great bodies of water in the USA. I remember having read an article in Ancient America, Archaeology of the Americas Before Columbus, Volume 4, Issue Number 25, pg 26 "Ancient Copper Mining in the Upper Great Lakes" by D.J. Hoffman that talks about copper spear points found in the area and large masses of copper weighing several thousand pounds. The article mentions that the largest mined piece of copper weighed over 6 tons. I digress, I'm hoping that someone might have additional knowledge about the brass looking balls and the people that used them.

Since the Spaniards didn't know the language of the Indians they were communicating through signs, gestures, drawings anything to get their point across. So, I imagine a conversation with a drawing of a canoe people in it, in a lake with two curious balls on the front. What are those balls gold, pointing to the cross, lead pointing at a bullet, silver, etc... util they got to brass. So, for some reason the pueblo people told them about those people. If they wanted to get rid of the Spaniards they would have told them that the "big" balls were made out of gold since that is probably what they were mostly inquiring about. So, I am not interested in the brass balls alone. I am interested in the possibility of a group of people that had the knowledge and ability to work with different alloys somewhere around a large body of water, which had many pueblos around it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... I remember having read an article in Ancient America, Archaeology of the Americas Before Columbus,....

You mean "Ancient American" magazine. Not Ancient America.

So let's cut to the chase, and skip early Europeans who *might* have made it to the desert SW as early as the 1500s. Let's skip talk of pueblos, brass balls, canoes, spaniards, mines, etc...

Are you aware that this magazine is spurious ? If the ilk of such type magazines is your source of fanciful stories that you hope to track down and detect, you're going to be on a perpetual non-scientific non-historical ghost chase.

What is the Purpose of "Ancient American" Magazine? - Andy White Anthropology

Ancient American Magazine is essentially a Mormon rag

Thus now I have my doubts on any such "brass balls" on canoes , and "lost silver mines", you might have started off asking about.

 

[hvacker]

While I live in New Mexico I don't know about those particular mines but it added to something I've been pondering for awhile. Did the Incas Mayan people have a mother load or was all their gold part of a trade system.
There has been ample evidence of well established trade systems and routes through out the Americas. European decedents like to think of the tribes here as primitive. Probably to feel "one up".
The thing about gold is it doesn't take a metallurgist to work it if it's pure enough.
About silver. There are abandoned silver mines and smelters here especially to the South and a ton of stories. Probably not related to your story. And tales of the Pueblo Revolt where the mines were filled in and hidden. That I believe is true. Ample evidence.

Big balls the color of brass would have been a European observation because brass in a metal mix of copper/zinc. The balls might have been made from anything and simply covered with color. Not necessarily being brass at all Que' No?!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... The thing about gold is it doesn't take a metallurgist to work it if it's pure enough....

Hvacker, sure, there would have been nothing to stop the CA indians from gathering nuggets from the streams of the gold rush-49er country. And they could have pounded them together into ornaments, decorations, etc... (just as in the lore of the first spanish to come into South american, mexico city, etc... They just gathered it up (or stole) it from the natives). And if you look at the original accounts of gold discovery in 1848/49 CA, it appears that ... initially, nuggets in some zones could just be eyeballed at that early stage. Right ? Hence, sure, it doesn't need a metallurgist. Right ?

And so too could trade route ("well established through the Americas" as you say) could have brought some of that gold up to north America. Right ? Sure, *anything's possible*.

But the problem is, it's simply not born out by reality. You can knock yourself silly till the cows come home at pre-history indian sites here in CA, and at the colorful pueblo cliff dwellings of AZ, NM, and ... sorry .... you're simply not going to find pre-European contact metals. To my knowledge, the only metal being worked in pre-contact north America, was a primitive copper culture in the upper midwest.

I'm sure someone will find an achilles heel . And find some singular object, or some singular ghost story superstition campfire story legend. But .... let's just cut to the chase: Read the history of the stuff that went back to Europe on those early explorer ships (of which the Atocha was just one of many, and just one that didn't happen to make it back). Ok, now ask yourself: Why wasn't the same export happening from north America, if it's just "such a given" that "they could have mined here" or that "trade could have brought it here" ? The evidence just isn't backing this up. Sorry.

 

[Tr.Hnt3r]

I didn't think I was going to be attacked so quickly but I am not surprised. Anyway, the Ancient American magazine that I have was given to me by a friend who wrote an article in it. I thought the magazine was interesting and had many stories some with sources. None of the stories even hinted at religion except the one about all the gold and silver items accumulated by a priest over his lifetime of service in Ecuador (rooms full). So, I don't know where Tom_in_CA is getting his facts from but I find the stories I read interesting. Just wanted everyone to know that, no one ever lies, misleads, or misinforms on the internet. Here are a few titles of the featured stories: The Lost Gold of Ancient Ecuador, The Search for Leif Erickson's Vinland, Inscribed Bone puts Vikings in Utah, The Lost Celtic Gold Mines of Arizona and a few others.

I digress, so there is no doubt that what I am saying about the balls on the front of the canoes that are of the color of brass were mentioned in the document regarding the discovery of Nuevo Mejico (sic) in 1581. I will now attach the document for everyone to peruse at their leisure. Unfortunately, the document is in Spanish. The original document is found in the National Historical Archives of Spain.
I looked at the pictures after posting them and was disappointed with their quality so I am adding a URL to the location of the images online. http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/...=4&txt_accion_origen=2&txt_id_desc_ud=1339475

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I didn't think I was going to be attacked so quickly ...

There is no "attack" here. Fact, sources of said-fact, & md'ing are being discussed. If someone dissents on a subject, it doesn't mean they are "attacking".

....Anyway, the Ancient American magazine that I have was given to me by a friend ... None of the stories even hinted at religion ....

Nor did I question your source of having obtained the magazine. Nor did I question your motives. Once I saw the title of the magazine, I looked it up. And saw article topics for various back issues. And the direction the magazine goes in , is akin to the "america unearthed" silly TV show. I sleuthed deeper to see if any critical peer reviews had been done. And that's where I got the links I posted here. None of which questions your personal sincerity.

..... So, I don't know where Tom_in_CA is getting his facts from but I find the stories I read interesting.....

"interesting" no doubt yes. Just as documentaries about UFO's and bigfoot, etc... are interesting as well. Sure, they are so much fun to want to "shake up" conventional thought/wisdom I totally understand that. It's human nature to want to be on the cutting edge. I got my facts from: Whenever extraordinary claims are made, check to see if peer reviews have already shot them down with equally compelling counter-evidence that answers with "more plausible explanations"

... Just wanted everyone to know that, no one ever lies, misleads, or misinforms on the internet...

Huh ? Well I'm sure that those that put forth such material are quite sincere. Thus "aren't lying". And thus aren't "trying to mislead", etc.. They no doubt very-much believe their stuff. But that doesn't make it true. And there is indeed lots of material "on the internet" that isn't necessarily true. Cross check for alternate explanations from experts in the fields.

...... The original document is found in the National Historical Archives of Spain....

Regarding the "faded clippings" that accompany such stories: When readers see such things, in their minds, it becomes iron-clad. But so too was the psychology present in all the fanciful lost mine, stolen stagecoach loot, missing military payroll , etc.. stories of the old treasure magazines of the 1960s & 70s. There'd always be a "faded newspaper clipping" . Such that now you establish a "name" or a "date" or a "location", etc... And the story is spun off of that. The insinuation being: The moment someone can put up a period article (ledger page, newspaper clipping, faded photograph, etc...) then presto: All the info contained from then on, must therefore be true. Eh ?

So to illustrate this: A buddy of mine submitted one of those articles back in the mid 1970s (in order to get the $50 article accept pay). The story was all fanciful and made up. But sure, it had a drawing of a miner posed next to his burro. And a faded newspaper clipping (for the starting dates and a chosen name for his story). But the rest was entirely made up. We got a good laugh wondering if anyone really went out looking for it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

also, regarding period writings, of people who.... back then,.... say they "saw such & such", be careful in how much stock you put into that (if it's "extraordinary"). You would be shocked to know how fast telephone game can come into play amongst peers and supposed eye-witnesses. Not saying that everything written in antiquity is always "suspect" or "false", but just saying that there can be alternate explanations for "something an indian said" or the physical description ("gold colored ball") that someone uses to describe something.

An example is the story of "gold coins beneath the streets" of a city near me. A buddy of mine was detecting oldtown sidewalk tearouts, and found a few coins from the late 1800s. He also found what he thought was a gold jewelry charm amulet thing. The workers gathered around him to see his finds, and he showed them. When he got to the charm thing, he mused "might be gold". And "might date to the 1800s" (as based on dates of other stuff he'd found).

That night, when cleaning up his stuff, he looked closer a the charm thing. Turned out to nothing but gold plate 1920s costume jewelry. So he promptly threw it in the trash.

The next day, out at the sidewalk demolition progression, a new worker was on the construction crew. The new worker kept curiously watching my friend from a distance. Finally got off his tractor, and approached my friend. To ask what he was finding. My friend hadn't found anything good yet this day. The new worker then launched into a story of how .... the previous day ... "A guy found gold coins from the 1800s!". My friend was floored !! He figured that someone must've come after he'd left, and (gasp) found gold coin(s). Right ?

But after further conversation with the new worker, it turned out the worker was talking about MY FRIEND ! Doh. So my friend attempted to put the story straight by telling the guy : "No, it wasn't 'handfuls of coins', it was just a few coins. And no, none of them were gold . And no, the charm amulet thing was only gold plated junk"

But humorously, the worker would not believe my friend. Because you see, he'd gotten it from source witnesses (his co-workers around the water cooler this next morning), so he kept assuming that someone else must've come later. My friend could not dissuade him.

So do you see how fast "treasure fever" spreads ? People put aside skeptical thinking (because no one wants to be "left out"). And do you see how if this worker puts down his memoirs , that .... 300 yrs. from now, someone will "find that faded newspaper clipping" and write about "gold under the streets of such & such". When, in fact, .... no, there is no gold. So too can the same apply to writings of antiquity.

 

[Clay Diggins]

The Gallegos and Escalante families still live at their New Mexico winter home camps established by their Conquistador ancestors as they have since 1582. Several of the Silver, Copper, Gold and Lead mines along Coyote Creek and the upper Pecos are still being worked by members of these families. They don't consider their 400 year old homes, their Spanish Royal Grant lands or their privately owned mines to be anybody else's business.

If you want to know more about these mines you might start by learning Castilian "High" Spanish and visit the Gallagos cash store in Villa Nueva, New Mexico - school Spanish or Mexican won't even get you past the front gate. Get to know the family members and hope they like you. After a few years they might open up and share some information on family matters, old camps, "hidden" villages and what they think about those who want to know all about their private mines. While you are there try the local elk meat from the cash store, it's some of the best I've ever eaten.

 

[Tr.Hnt3r]

Case in point, people trying to mislead other people just for a laugh or a buck, disgusting. Anyway, I can see what is meant by the broken telephone. Stories can be exaggerated at times but sometimes there is a little bit of truth out there. It's people that try to dissuade others from even looking is what we should be worried about. What I am looking for, is the truth. Hopefully, someone sooner or later can prove or disprove the existence of said big balls the color of brass, only time will tell, eh?

 

[Clay Diggins]

Case in point, people trying to mislead other people just for a laugh or a buck, disgusting. ... Hopefully, someone sooner or later can prove or disprove the existence of said big balls the color of brass, only time will tell, eh?

Not trying to mislead just trying to help out. I've seen the Elephant but I guess I shouldn't expect you to understand anything beyond the tail. Here's a few things to help you find out what the tail is attached to:


The canyon just below present day Villa Nueva, NM was the preferred camp for all those Conquistadors.

Yes, the Gallegos family was in New Mexico during the same period that the Pilgrims landed in Plymouth on the east coast.

You can read more here.

I can't help you with your search for balls. I was responding to your original post asking for information on the location of the silver mines. I gave you that. I've got some big brass ones but you don't want to be searching for those.

 

[hvacker]

Tom in CA. I have no knowledge of N. American using metals. That wasn't my point. We do know South of here gold was used for many things that seems related to religious reasons. I wondered if the people there had a demand for gold outside of their own findings. Like where is the lode. Your reading way too much into my inquiry.
I've been in cliff dwellings well before the tourists in Utah. What I found were campfires, maze grinders, and bones. Also a storage for corn where only the cobs remained. Probably animals. No metal but I didn't expect to. These were people living plain.
If someone wanted a mental exercise there are many reasons Europeans had no plunder from N America. Largely because we are a victim of our own sense of history. We see history as an East to West movement in N Am. But while the Pilgrims were starving back East their was a capital city already in Santa Fe.
The mines in N America, at least here, were Spanish. NM was a Territory until 1913. Gold drives the White Man nuts.
Anyway CYAGTOGO (I'm practicing the new language of Phone Talk.)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... Stories can be exaggerated at times but sometimes there is a little bit of truth out there....

Yes. This is the next resultant line (I mean no disrespect). The person researching a legend (Lost Dutchman, Oak Island, Yamashita, etc...) will say this: It's merely a matter of sorting fact from fiction. Yes this , off-the-top, admits the telephone game at play. But notice it doesn't cause the faithful to disbelieve. Now it's merely a matter of sorting fact from fiction.

But the problem with this is: A) SURE ! All treasure stories have some "facts" in them. Eg.: a person's name. A date. A historical event. A habit of historical travelers. A faded clipping, etc... But unfortunately: If there's no treasure, then it really doesn't matter how much else of it is true. Right ?

I'M NOT SAYING THAT BALLS OF GOLD don't exist. But just saying that the statement of "sorting fact from fiction", on-the-other-hand, doesn't mean that, ergo : Balls of gold exist(ed). It's merely taking as a "given" starting point implied premise, that the there is a treasure, in-the-first place.

 

[Ditlihi]

I didn't think I was going to be attacked so quickly but I am not surprised. Anyway, the Ancient American magazine that I have was given to me by a friend who wrote an article in it. I thought the magazine was interesting and had many stories some with sources. None of the stories even hinted at religion except the one about all the gold and silver items accumulated by a priest over his lifetime of service in Ecuador (rooms full). So, I don't know where Tom_in_CA is getting his facts from but I find the stories I read interesting. Just wanted everyone to know that, no one ever lies, misleads, or misinforms on the internet. Here are a few titles of the featured stories: The Lost Gold of Ancient Ecuador, The Search for Leif Erickson's Vinland, Inscribed Bone puts Vikings in Utah, The Lost Celtic Gold Mines of Arizona and a few others.

I digress, so there is no doubt that what I am saying about the balls on the front of the canoes that are of the color of brass were mentioned in the document regarding the discovery of Nuevo Mejico (sic) in 1581. I will now attach the document for everyone to peruse at their leisure. Unfortunately, the document is in Spanish. The original document is found in the National Historical Archives of Spain.
View attachment 1460574 View attachment 1460575 View attachment 1460576 I looked at the pictures after posting them and was disappointed with their quality so I am adding a URL to the location of the images online. MINISTERIO DE EDUCACI”N, CULTURA Y DEPORTE - Portal de Archivos Españoles

Don't mind Tom, Tr.Hnt3r...he's basically harmless. A master of the Shuck and Jive, he's often seen around the forum wandering aimlessly with a peanut butter covered tennis shoe ( or is it a penny loafer...shoot, I can't remember), trying to Dowse for pulltabs. A swell guy you can always count on for misdirection.

Be gentle with him, he gets worked up easily.

Btw, Welcome to Treasurenet! Glad you're here.

 

[Tr.Hnt3r]

Clay Diggins, I don't know if you are aware but Francisco Sanchez Chamuscado died during that 1581 discovery and Harnando Gallegos became the leader? He fought for many years in the courts to be recognized as the leader upon his return. I think he was trying to get paid for his services and named as a leader of the discovery. In my studies I haven't found any documents saying he was named the leader which doesn't mean it wasn't so. He is mentioned as the scribe and one of the 12 on that discovery. Testimony from two of the soldiers on the trip and a friend indicate that he might have been named the leader prior to the death of Francisco.

Oh and BTW I found some the other day after years of exercise and loosing a lot of weight

 

[Tr.Hnt3r]

hvacker had a good point when he said, "The balls might have been made from anything and simply covered with color. Not necessarily being brass at all...". Tom also has a good point basically saying, this is a story! Stories are just stories until verified. I also want to clear up the air, I never alluded to or said that the questionable balls were made from gold. Oh and, thank you Ditlihi for the reality check. I have since read some posts by certain individual(s) and have a clearer understanding of things as they are, were, and will be .

 

[Ditlihi]

The pleasure was mine, Sir.