Mineral King, CA

[blackrose]

History of the Living Historic Community: The Boom Days


My room mate is planning a trip up here in August. I'm interested in going. The camp grounds are where the old mills used to be. I'm thinking there's some good relic hunting opportunity here, if so i'll bring my tesoro. I'm not sure if it's legal though. Anyone know the legal issues at play here?

 

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[ChampFerguson/TN]

Sounds like a nice trip. Do you know who the titled land owner is?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

That is within the boundaries of Sequoia National Park. And unlike NFS or BLM , national parks are *supposedly* off limits. But I have no doubt that since this is vast acreage, much in-the-middle of nowhere ....... that probably hasn't stopped guys from doing it. If you could find out where the old resort and picnic site spots are .... sounds awesome.

 

[Honest Samuel]

If there no signs stating No Metal Detecting, go for it and good luck. It is always good to hear from our good friend, Tom.

 

[blackrose]

That is within the boundaries of Sequoia National Park. And unlike NFS or BLM , national parks are *supposedly* off limits. But I have no doubt that since this is vast acreage, much in-the-middle of nowhere ....... that probably hasn't stopped guys from doing it. If you could find out where the old resort and picnic site spots are .... sounds awesome.

It's a good idea to try to pin point the picnic / resort locations. Won't be easy to do though. there is a couple of named, high profile trees in the area which probably had some of those types events take place in their immediate vicinity so that would be a good place to start.

Atwell Mill is the camp ground where there is still the old mill equipment laying around.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... Atwell Mill is the camp ground where there is still the old mill equipment laying around.

Some observations:

1) If this is a modern campground nowadays (on top of some yesteryear spot), then go figure: There's going to be modern junkage. Eg.: foil, tabs, zinc, can slaw, molten can nuggets (from persons throwing their aluminum on campfires), etc...

2) Go figure that the most amount of people (and attendant ranger personnel, etc...) will be at the campgrounds. So if there were any worries about doing your hobby there (ie.: the exact entity who administers, and their exact verbiage, etc...), then the last place you want to be swinging is in places where lookie-lou busy-body rangers might be.

3) The optimum place will be if you find removed zones, where no modern camping occurs (and away from busy-bodies), yet that perhaps were the camp zones and/or resorts your link alluded to.

4) the existence of "old mill equipment" might look dazzling. But those might just be "work" or "commercial/industrial" zones. And are not necessarily the locations you want to be detecting. Because the type places you want to be md'ing are where they PLAYED, SLEPT, RECREATED, etc.... Not where they were thrashing about with heavy equipment working (read "iron junk"). Same logic for those that try to hunt gold rush sites: They are immediately drawn to the ruins of sluices, concrete foundations of stamp mills, etc... Right ? (simply because that's the first things your eyes are drawn to). But the reality is you want to find the worker tent city zones where they set up their camps. Of which perhaps NOTHING REMAINS to show such locations.

5) Bear in mind that modern signage always says something to the effect of "park / camp in designated spots only" and " fires in pits only" etc... This is all an invention of the last 60 yrs. or so. In the old days, people would go into camps and just pitch tents wherever, build a rock pit to BBQ at wherever, etc... Needless to say this causes vegetation trampling, etc... So starting in the 1950s and '60s, ecological awareness kicked in, and camping, BBQs, parking, driving, etc.... were restricted to set-up zones. In an effort to reclaim trampled areas.

So for example, one spot I hunted on NFS land years ago, had picnicking and camping that dated back to the 1920s and 30s. And my first instinct was to hit the obvious campgrounds we were staying in. But as I ventured out further into mundane grassy meadows, I was able to find yesteryear camp zones (tell-tale by trees where people pitched rope between 2 trees and pitched tents, etc...). But you would not recognize them today, as they've been reclaimed by the forest, grasses, meadows, etc....

Thus if you can deduce where some of your links resorts and camping was THAT IS AWAY from modern influences or industrial junk, then THOSE are the places you want to find

 

[blackrose]

Some observations:

1) If this is a modern campground nowadays (on top of some yesteryear spot), then go figure: There's going to be modern junkage. Eg.: foil, tabs, zinc, can slaw, molten can nuggets (from persons throwing their aluminum on campfires), etc...

2) Go figure that the most amount of people (and attendant ranger personnel, etc...) will be at the campgrounds. So if there were any worries about doing your hobby there (ie.: the exact entity who administers, and their exact verbiage, etc...), then the last place you want to be swinging is in places where lookie-lou busy-body rangers might be.

3) The optimum place will be if you find removed zones, where no modern camping occurs (and away from busy-bodies), yet that perhaps were the camp zones and/or resorts your link alluded to.

4) the existence of "old mill equipment" might look dazzling. But those might just be "work" or "commercial/industrial" zones. And are not necessarily the locations you want to be detecting. Because the type places you want to be md'ing are where they PLAYED, SLEPT, RECREATED, etc.... Not where they were thrashing about with heavy equipment working (read "iron junk"). Same logic for those that try to hunt gold rush sites: They are immediately drawn to the ruins of sluices, concrete foundations of stamp mills, etc... Right ? (simply because that's the first things your eyes are drawn to). But the reality is you want to find the worker tent city zones where they set up their camps. Of which perhaps NOTHING REMAINS to show such locations.

5) Bear in mind that modern signage always says something to the effect of "park / camp in designated spots only" and " fires in pits only" etc... This is all an invention of the last 60 yrs. or so. In the old days, people would go into camps and just pitch tents wherever, build a rock pit to BBQ at wherever, etc... Needless to say this causes vegetation trampling, etc... So starting in the 1950s and '60s, ecological awareness kicked in, and camping, BBQs, parking, driving, etc.... were restricted to set-up zones. In an effort to reclaim trampled areas.

So for example, one spot I hunted on NFS land years ago, had picnicking and camping that dated back to the 1920s and 30s. And my first instinct was to hit the obvious campgrounds we were staying in. But as I ventured out further into mundane grassy meadows, I was able to find yesteryear camp zones (tell-tale by trees where people pitched rope between 2 trees and pitched tents, etc...). But you would not recognize them today, as they've been reclaimed by the forest, grasses, meadows, etc....

Thus if you can deduce where some of your links resorts and camping was THAT IS AWAY from modern influences or industrial junk, then THOSE are the places you want to find

Tom, thank you for the excellent post. You are dropping serious knowledge in this thread, obviously backed by years of experience. Everything you said makes sense. Now the difficult part is finding out where (on a map..let alone in the real world) those away-from-the-modern-junk spots are located. Even just an estimate or a direction would be hard to figure out. This always seems to be where I hit a wall. It seems like the type of thing you'd have to be told by some old local, who remembers where his great gpa would have set up a camp or something. Hardly seems like the kind of thing playing internet detective would yeild on its own. (thats me talking about my methods, I'm sure your methods of research are far more sophisticated and figuring out more advanced research methods is one of the reasons i post here anyway)

Thanks again for breaking it down for me,Tom. Look forward to hearing more from you.

 

[blackrose]

I've done a bit more research, looked at some old maps and most of those maps cover the silver city area and the mineral king area. The trip im planning is going to take us through the "big five".

https://www.hikingproject.com/trail/7008175/big-five-lakes

I've kind of hit a wall as far as finding out where the old sites might be. How much of it is just a crapshoot? I mean we could all spend our entire days just reading, nonstop, but that wouldn't leave a lot of time for detecting...now would it?

So my question is, how precise do you make your research? At one point do you pick a GENERAL area and just start sweeping?

I am hoping the lakes in this area i've targeted also were used by the people of yesteryear and that they've left behind some relics. Of course there's the modern garbage that's probably there too..


Anyone have any input on this plan that can possibly offer course correction?

Should I stick to this plan or change it up?

 

[blackrose]

I just got back from this trip. It ended up being a 6 day, 28 mile back packing trip through Mineral King. Very treacherous terrain out there! I did not end up doing much sweeping because the rangers are all over the trails and campsites. Since I'm a wilderness noob I did not want to go off trail and get lost and et by a bear. It was fun though. I did manage to sweep one campsite while a ranger was away, and found some old remnants of a tent, iron steaks and all so I know it was fairly old. Next time, I am going to hit an area where there's no legal issues so I don't have to look over my shoulder.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... I am going to hit an area where there's no legal issues so I don't have to look over my shoulder.

Thanx for the update. "Looking over your shoulders" d/t 1) Too many rangers exactly-at your location ? Or 2) "Looking over your shoulders" d/t some verbiage you/they could find to apply to your activity ?

If it is #1, then sure, don't spit in some person's holy water. If it's #2, then save your time: You will never find any public spot of ground where some form of connect-the-dots verbiage couldn't be construed to apply to our hobby. Eg.: "alter and disturb" or "take and remove" or "cultural heritage". etc....

But back to your original location's potential: Most all the west coast obvious ghost town (coffee-table type book info) have been pounded to heck, or are buried under modern influence, or are some sort of obvious sensitive monument. So when I go to research, it's almost as if I purposefully go out of my way to find sites that AREN'T easily located, and have ZERO modern influence on the site.

 

[blackrose]

Thanx for the update. "Looking over your shoulders" d/t 1) Too many rangers exactly-at your location ? Or 2) "Looking over your shoulders" d/t some verbiage you/they could find to apply to your activity ?

#1. The rangers, i learned, are far more out to get you than anything else. They wanted to know where we were going, ect. They rolled up on our campsite and questioned us several times. Scolded us for having a hatchet, ect. They also did not inform us of the ice on several parts of the trail including a very dangerous mountain pass. No trail maintenance either. We had to folllow carin stones at several points to find safe passage, no thanks to the people who's job it supposedly is to keep the park safe...

Anyway it was a good time, and my relic hunting will continue. Tom, per your point about research, do you search for SPECIFIC sites, and if so, how specific? At a certain point you can only narrow it down so much, before you just go out there and start swinging, right? Or is there more to it than meets the eye?

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

Nighthawking

If you have to sneak around and be looking over your shoulder to do your metal detecting, I think theres a term for that. Well, ok theres more than 1 term.

Hope the folks encouraging you to break the law help you out with bail/lawyer money if you get do get caught detecting on prohibited fed lands!

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

Sorry, apparently I double tapped it.

 

[blackrose]

Your point is well taken, TN.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Or is there more to it than meets the eye?

Finding "virgin stage stops" and "virgin country picnic sites" is more difficult now than it was during the 1970s and 1980s. But believe it or not, I still find such-sites even to this day. It shocks me to see what's still virgin. Sometimes requires traveling a bit. And requires some ... uh ... "balls". You're never going to find blazen signs on any site saying "md'ing welcome here. Come one come all".

A good starting tip that I can lend is to volunteer time at various historical societies and museums. Like a docent, etc.... Man desks, lead tours, sort papers, etc.... Then you have credentials as a "historian" to back-room archives, nosy questions, etc.. And acts as an "in" to get into places, when you can flash your badge. And a reason to be inquiring of various places, etc.... Be a fly on the wall. Might take some years.

And it's gotten so that I assume that any *obvious* spots are pounded to heck. I recall as a young md'r getting multiple "SW Ghost town " books of the caliber put out by Sunset Home and Garden Coffee table books. We set out on a road trip only to find they were all tourist traps, or pounded to heck, or riddled with modern bullet shells, or somehow off-limits (crawling with rangers as you say). We actually ended up doing better at just spotting out of place ruins in the desert and forests just driving-by, than we did with any of the "colorful" spots.

And when I look back at all the good spots in my tri-county area I've gotten the best old coins at in the last 40 yrs, and see that most of them were via local small-time resources/tips that couldn't have been had via the internet or colorful "ghost-town" type books.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

another "final frontier" for md'ing sites, is to do old-town urban demolition sites. Eg.: old-town sidewalk tearouts, old-town building tearouts, etc... But again: If you're skittish and waiting for red-carpets, then perhaps not for you. They require waiting till after the workers cut out for the day at 5pm. And might require stepping over a (gasp) yellow ribbon, etc....

 

[blackrose]

^ I'm with you, Tom. I'm not expecting to never step on any toes or piss any one off to do what I need to do. And to the guys out there who want to make sure everything is "ok" before they sweep, i'm well aware of the risks.

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

^ I'm with you, Tom. I'm not expecting to never step on any toes or piss any one off to do what I need to do. And to the guys out there who want to make sure everything is "ok" before they sweep, i'm well aware of the risks.

Including the ones that result in even more areas made off limits to us?

I don't advocate stirring up s.....the pot with LE when things aren't clear, but when you know you are breaking a law,.........well that goes against http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/general-discussion/362060-obey-laws.html

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Including the ones that result in even more areas made off limits to us? ...

Hi Champ. The places I have in mind in this thread were not obvious historic sensitive monuments. I would be talking innocuous forests, deserts, etc.... Ie.: the type places where there might not be any *specific* prohibition. Yet ... still .... someone could gripe on other grounds. Eg.: harvest/remove, alter/deface, cultural heritage, etc...

Naturally don't throw caution to the wind. But on the other hand, if you look long enough and hard enough, there's not a speck of public land anywhere, that I bet I can't find some rule or law to apply. Eg.: Think of any place you currently hunt. And I bet I can find someone in that administration to say "Champ can't do that". Just takes proper wording, so that they don't fail to grasp the full implications of our actions.

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

Didn't mean to include you in my last comment at all Tom. Sorry you took it that way.

My comment was meant as a sort of generic, 'if you know its wrong, its not just you that may have to pay the price.'

I think you and I are on the same page anymore about knowing your rights and what the laws say before hunting anywhere. And I must admit you are one of the very very few people in my life that has worn me down to the point that I changed my mind even slightly on something. While I still think politely asking if there is any law (and always confirm for yourself if the answer is positive) is often a good idea in the neck of the woods where I hunt, I see where in many cases (in other areas of the country particularly) where it would be a bad idea and a person should just discretely hunt secure in the knowledge that he is in the right.