Counterfeit

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

I was given these two 1887 CC Morgans yesterday by a store owner who knew they were fakes (a magnet sticks to them), and I was hoping to get a few answers on them. I plan on checking their hardness, density, and maybe cutting one in half to look at the cross section. My guess is that they are stainless steel, which would explain why they are ferrous. However, what this won't tell me is where these coins came from. Does anybody know where counterfeit coins like these are made? Is there any test I can perform to get an idea of where/how a coin like this was produced?

 

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[Relicgrubber]

Only from CHINA!

 

[crashbandicoot]

Dare I say it?the Mole People?My guess would be China too,from some of that scrap we been selling them for the longest.

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

Only from CHINA!

Well, every other knockoff comes from China, so I guess that doesn't surprise me. It might explain why it is an 1887 CC, a date/mint combo which doesn't actually exist. Any US coin expert would know that already.

 

[Red-Coat]

For sure they'll be from China. It's one of the countries that has no respect (nor legislation, nor a signatory to international agreements) for replica/counterfeit coins of other countries... even when they're still legal currency, as is the case for Morgan Dollars. As I understand it, Chinese law only requires them to be marked as replicas if they're Chinese and are still legal currency.

 

[Bud Aurum]

Philippine craftsman can make some remarkable counterfeits usually specializing in scarce silver dollars. First hand experience.
Here is a link; https://www.silvercoins.com/fake-silver-coins-14-ways-to-spot-counterfeits/

Your Bud Aurum

 

[jeff741972]

i would rub them with a strong magnet till they stick to the refrigerator

 

[1637]

that is funny

Well, every other knockoff comes from China, so I guess that doesn't surprise me. It might explain why it is an 1887 CC, a date/mint combo which doesn't actually exist. Any US coin expert would know that already.

 

[1637]

WAIT.china has laws brad

For sure they'll be from China. It's one of the countries that has no respect (nor legislation, nor a signatory to international agreements) for replica/counterfeit coins of other countries... even when they're still legal currency, as is the case for Morgan Dollars. As I understand it, Chinese law only requires them to be marked as replicas if they're Chinese and are still legal currency.

 

[Mackaydon]

How can the 'coin' be called a counterfeit or replica ( or even a coin) since that particular date with the CC mint mark never existed? How do you counterfeit or replicate something that never existed? I think of it as a fantasy 'coin'.
Don.......

 

[Red-Coat]

How can the 'coin' be called a counterfeit or replica ( or even a coin) since that particular date with the CC mint mark never existed? How do you counterfeit or replicate something that never existed? I think of it as a fantasy 'coin'.
Don.......

Call them what you will.

The word “counterfeit” came to us from Latin via old French and from words variously meaning “pretending to be”, “imitated”, and especially a copy or imitation of something made without authority… and more especially if made with a view to deceive or defraud.

It’s academic whether the copying is exact to the extent that dates, mintmarks and such align with genuine examples if the item has been produced with that intention to deceive (an ordinary person).

Over here at least there is a legal restriction on copying “Protected Coins”, defined as any coin that is:

(a) customarily used as money in any country; or
(b) specified in an Order made by the Treasury.
The coins that have been specified in an Order by the Treasury are: the Sovereign, Half-Sovereign, Krugerrand, coins denominated as a fraction of krugerrand, Maria Theresa thaler bearing the date 1780 and the euro.
[Most US coins are automatically protected by the UK regulations since (unlike our UK coins) they remain legal currency irrespective of date since the US Treasury does not have a demonetarisation policy for older coins]

A counterfeit of a protected coin [or currency note] is defined by the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 as:

(a) a thing that is not a currency note or a protected coin but resembles a currency note or protected coin (whether on one side only or on both) to such an extent that it is reasonably capable of passing for a currency note or protected coin of that description; or
(b) if it is a currency note or protected coin which has been so altered that it is reasonably capable of passing for a currency note or protected coin of that description.

The addition of words such as “copy” or “reproduction” affords legal protection against the offence of counterfeiting in the UK but, in many cases, the producer must still seek Treasury consent, if only for copyright reasons.

 

[Relicgrubber]

i would rub them with a strong magnet till they stick to the refrigerator

Pro tip of the day!

 

[smokeythecat]

China! I bought a pillar style Spanish 8 reale, had it a few weeks, I got it slightly damp from my soda, 'twas on the couch and it RUSTED! I was able to return it.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Call them what you will.

The word “counterfeit” came to us from Latin via old French and from words variously meaning “pretending to be”, “imitated”, and especially a copy or imitation of something made without authority… and more especially if made with a view to deceive or defraud.

It’s academic whether the copying is exact to the extent that dates, mintmarks and such align with genuine examples if the item has been produced with that intention to deceive (an ordinary person).

Over here at least there is a legal restriction on copying “Protected Coins”, defined as any coin that is:

(a) customarily used as money in any country; or
(b) specified in an Order made by the Treasury.
The coins that have been specified in an Order by the Treasury are: the Sovereign, Half-Sovereign, Krugerrand, coins denominated as a fraction of krugerrand, Maria Theresa thaler bearing the date 1780 and the euro.
[Most US coins are automatically protected by the UK regulations since (unlike our UK coins) they remain legal currency irrespective of date since the US Treasury does not have a demonetarisation policy for older coins]

A counterfeit of a protected coin [or currency note] is defined by the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 as:

(a) a thing that is not a currency note or a protected coin but resembles a currency note or protected coin (whether on one side only or on both) to such an extent that it is reasonably capable of passing for a currency note or protected coin of that description; or
(b) if it is a currency note or protected coin which has been so altered that it is reasonably capable of passing for a currency note or protected coin of that description.

The addition of words such as “copy” or “reproduction” affords legal protection against the offence of counterfeiting in the UK but, in many cases, the producer must still seek Treasury consent, if only for copyright reasons.

RedCoat strikes again!!!!

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

How can the 'coin' be called a counterfeit or replica ( or even a coin) since that particular date with the CC mint mark never existed? How do you counterfeit or replicate something that never existed? I think of it as a fantasy 'coin'.
Don.......

Fair enough, but the guy who gave them to me also had a few others with legitimate mint/date combos. I just took these two because they were the only pair. He said they were all sold by the same person.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Counterfeit collectibles are everywhere now. EBay is full of counterfeit baseball cards. By law, reprints should be stamped "reprint" or "replica" on the back, but none of them are marked as such. The sleazy dealers put "RP" in the listing title (for reprint), but not many actually call them a reprint. They eventually get negative feedback for hiding the fact that they're charging 10 bucks for a worthless reprint, but I guess they don't care, as long as they're making money on them. I report them to eBay, but they do nothing because it would cut into their profits.