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Thread: don't tell me there is Global Warming, Show it to me

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  1. #21
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    Nope. I have always wondered what the green stuff that produces oxygen needs? Wonder if there is more CO2 if there is more chlorophyll to use it?

    Is that a bad escalation? Think it could get worse if there was no CO2? I believe we would be in a big problem if we could stop co2. But I am not a scientist. Just a casual observer, taught public school, before a political agenda.

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  3. #22
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    I believe those figures are a bit skewed and refer to years of limited activity. I'll do a bit more research to see.

    Interesting read: 1883 eruption of Krakatoa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    That one 1883 eruption changed world wide temperatures 1.2 degrees Celcius, 2.2 Farenheit. Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years, and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888.

    On to CO2:

    If NUVO-Science is to be believed (and I believe that popularity and science very strange bedfellows indeed), just the existence of humans --- apart from cars and industry --- is the reason for global warming. Our carbon dioxide emissions alone account for the problem. Man was here even during the ice ages (frozen remains in glaciers prove this). So, how did they occur if man's existence is the cause of global warming.

    Got a simple 2nd grade science question for anyone to answer:

    Animals breathe in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. Why is that important to plants?

    Anyone know?

    Notice, not just humans give off carbon dioxide, ANIMALS do . . . all animals. They all also give off methane and other gasses. Why then has it taken 4 million years (those Nuvo-scientists' timetable not mine) for things to come to a head?

    BTW, those animals were also here during the ice ages. And, if these scientists are to be believed, in much greater number before humans tried to wipe them out. All of their CO2, all their methane, everything. Why did it take 4 million years?

    I'm curious, so help me out.
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
    - George Washington

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    Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

    Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

    Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    - Isaiah 5:20

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    News stories are like a creek. Always remember to get the new that's UPSTREAM FROM THE HERD!

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    We now return you to your state sponsored and regulated day.


  4. #23
    au
    Jul 2011
    79
    Re. Krakatoa. An eruption of this size was a very isolated event and so can be discounted when compared to the continuous emissions(burning of fossil fuels) caused by man.
    In any event this particular eruption caused an average global DROP in temperature of about 1C due to less light reaching the earths surface and so has nothing to do with CO2 emissions.

    "Animals breathe in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. Why is that important to plants?"
    It is not important to plants as they developed photosynthesis about 1000 million years ago, before any creature walked, flew, swam or crawled.
    Or if the question is refering to an increase of CO2 due to the increase in humans then:
    "Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing."
    Plants do not thrive on CO2 alone. For one, a bigger plant needs more water and the planet's usable water is rapidly shrinking (due in part to global warming).

    True, CO2 levels have been rising slowly and STEADILY for thousands of years as has the average temperature, but not at such a rapid rate as over the past 120 years
    where more has been added than in the past 15 million years.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Powers View Post
    Rex, volcanoes only emit about 0.3 Billion tonnes of CO2 / year worldwide; whereas human activity is about 100 times as much at 29 Billion tonnes and
    increasing.
    I hope this is not construed as a conspiracy of the trolls
    i did'nt get on this site to talk politics. i got on it to share information and thoughts with like minded people. however sometimes i find it hard not to respond. yes i can throw global warming myths at you and you can respond thats great. free speech is wonderful. the difference between you and me on this subject is i look at the global warming science as scientific theory and you look at it as scientific worship.

  6. #25
    us
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    Much of what is presented to the public as "fact" is in actuality "theory".

    Many criminal cases are built on theory, but when you get before the judge you can throw theory out the window. You better bring facts because the folks on the other side know the difference between being in deep S*** and deep shinola. Bring the pretty window dressing and it's over, you'll be ripped to shreds by the defense attorneys.

    Unfortunately, the masses are uneducated enough that they will accept theory as fact without questioning: "What's in it for you?"

    Scientists don't arrive in their positions because they are dumber than the average person. Their intelligence is above average as it must be. Unfortunately, greed is an equal opportunity destroyer.

    When you see other scientists making the big bucks because they are riding the populist "MMGW Bandwagon", in some cases it is difficult not to join in regardless of what your data states. That is why there was something to find in the emails.

    "Massaging numbers" used to be associated with embezzlement only, but now we see it in science. Science is supposed to look at the facts and draw conclusions, not draw a conclusion and find (or make up) facts to back that "scientific" conclusion. If you're as old as I am, imagine your fate if you had done this in your high school science class.

    Good science may start with a theory, but the theory must be based on observations. Then you examine the facts to see whether they prove or disprove your theory.

    With MMGW science, it started with a theory, ignores all contrary evidence, and even alters numbers to achieve the results needed to give the theory populist credibility. We, the masses, are expected to accept it as "fact" when it is no more than conjecture. We are expected to accept the "costs" of correcting the problem . . . but no matter how much we spend (taxes and penalties to corporations all eventually come out of the working man's pockets through higher utility, fuel and commodity prices) the problem can never quite be solved. So they try bigger, more expensive solutions. The hope for them is that this will continue until all production is done solely for their benefit.

    Then they'll have enough money to get a hot girlfriend because we all know that a rich nerd with a Ferrari --- well, all the hot girls see is the money and Ferrari. Who has it them immaterial. They're just here to party.
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
    - George Washington

    *

    Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

    Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

    Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    - Isaiah 5:20

    *

    News stories are like a creek. Always remember to get the new that's UPSTREAM FROM THE HERD!

    *

    We now return you to your state sponsored and regulated day.


  7. #26
    Kentucky Kache
    What's the difference in these discussions and the ones that are banned? Looks to me like it's the same old thing under a different name. And that's what I was trying to say in my thread which is now locked. I wonder if this thread will also be locked.

  8. #27
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    no it won't be locked, because If it gets out of hand
    I will delete it.


    & If I miss something the other mods & admin are welcome to Name:  a55a0c37.gif
Views: 118
Size:  39.1 KB the thread without Hesitation

  9. #28
    Kentucky Kache
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff of pa View Post
    no it won't be locked, because If it gets out of hand
    I will delete it.


    & If I miss something the other mods & admin are welcome to Name:  a55a0c37.gif
Views: 118
Size:  39.1 KB the thread without Hesitation
    Other threads are being locked that are not getting out of hand.

  10. #29
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Powers View Post
    Re. Krakatoa. An eruption of this size was a very isolated event and so can be discounted when compared to the continuous emissions(burning of fossil fuels) caused by man.
    In any event this particular eruption caused an average global DROP in temperature of about 1C due to less light reaching the earths surface and so has nothing to do with CO2 emissions.

    "Animals breathe in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. Why is that important to plants?"
    It is not important to plants as they developed photosynthesis about 1000 million years ago, before any creature walked, flew, swam or crawled.
    Or if the question is refering to an increase of CO2 due to the increase in humans then:
    "Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing."
    Plants do not thrive on CO2 alone. For one, a bigger plant needs more water and the planet's usable water is rapidly shrinking (due in part to global warming).

    True, CO2 levels have been rising slowly and STEADILY for thousands of years as has the average temperature, but not at such a rapid rate as over the past 120 years
    where more has been added than in the past 15 million years.
    I threw in the Krakatoa comment to see if anyone was paying attention. and you are completely correct except that science in the years preceding the IPCC and Al Gore's hysteria shows a 1.2 Celsius degree drop. The numbers appear to have been revised to support their cause.

    As for CO2 levels "rising slowly and steadily for thousands of years" that may or may not be true. Data on CO2 levels must be interpolated from past living things. Interpolated is pretty much a fancy term for a "guestimation" based on available information. The available data is gathered, but we can only assume we have the correct math to decipher the information and guess that this is how things were. We have no hard data . . . accurate measuring tools did not exist during period in question. Thus, the interpolation has to make assumptions, then an imprecise formula is applied to get an answer and Bob's your uncle we have today's data about a past which may or may not have happened as they believe it did.

    To the same end, other scientists decided to do their research only within the time periods where we have had measuring tools available, as well as records. You might enjoy reading http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/im...t_too_much.pdf
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
    - George Washington

    *

    Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

    Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

    Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    - Isaiah 5:20

    *

    News stories are like a creek. Always remember to get the new that's UPSTREAM FROM THE HERD!

    *

    We now return you to your state sponsored and regulated day.


  11. #30
    au
    Jul 2011
    79
    A scientific Theory is not a dirty word. It is not "Gospel". Every theory is being rigorously tested as per the "scientific method" which means that until
    new facts emerge or a better theory evolves that gives a " better fit" to explain the facts, then the old theory stands.
    Chads argument and understanding of the scientific method is at the same level used by those who object to Darwin's Theory of Evolution.
    The world has moved on.

  12. #31
    us
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    I do understand theory.

    You base assumptions on available information. It is not proof or fact, but rather "faith" you go on. Faith in yourself that your understanding of the information is correct. That word "faith" skirts a bit towards religion, but we won't deal with that here.

    Theory is NOT proven. While it may be accepted, we must remember that theory is no more and no less than a "work in progress" on a scientific level.

    For example, I can theorize (based on available evidence) that John Doe is cooking the books at XYZ Corporation. I see that new boat in the driveway, what appears to be a lifestyle far beyond his salary package from the accounting department. If I take this to the judge, I will NOT get a warrant. I need proof. Observations will not suffice in a court of law.

    Unfortunately, we are not talking about a court of law when it comes to MMGW, we are only talking about the court of public opinion or scientific opinion.

    For a bit of understanding, we'll look at some excerpts from the emails which were "outed" and see how it looks:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/
    But perhaps the most damaging revelations – the scientific equivalent of the Telegraph's MPs' expenses scandal – are those concerning the way Warmist scientists may variously have manipulated or suppressed evidence in order to support their cause.
    Here are a few tasters.
    Manipulation of evidence:
    I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.
    Private doubts about whether the world really is heating up:
    The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.
    Suppression of evidence:
    Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
    Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment – minor family crisis.
    Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.
    We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.
    Fantasies of violence against prominent Climate Sceptic scientists:
    Next time I see Pat Michaels at a scientific meeting, I’ll be tempted to beat
    the crap out of him
    . Very tempted.
    Attempts to disguise the inconvenient truth of the Medieval Warm Period (MWP):
    ……Phil and I have recently submitted a paper using about a dozen NH records that fit this category, and many of which are available nearly 2K back–I think that trying to adopt a timeframe of 2K, rather than the usual 1K, addresses a good earlier point that Peck made w/ regard to the memo, that it would be nice to try to “contain” the putative “MWP”, even if we don’t yet have a hemispheric mean reconstruction available that far back….
    And, perhaps most reprehensibly, a long series of communications discussing how best to squeeze dissenting scientists out of the peer review process. How, in other words, to create a scientific climate in which anyone who disagrees with AGW can be written off as a crank, whose views do not have a scrap of authority.
    “This was the danger of always criticising the skeptics for not publishing in the “peer-reviewed literature”. Obviously, they found a solution to that–take over a journal! So what do we do about this? I think we have to stop considering “Climate Research” as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board…What do others think?”
    “I will be emailing the journal to tell them I’m having nothing more to do with it until they rid themselves of this troublesome editor.”“It results from this journal having a number of editors. The responsible one for this is a well-known skeptic in NZ. He has let a few papers through by Michaels and Gray in the past. I’ve had words with Hans von Storch about this, but got nowhere. Another thing to discuss in Nice !”

    They aren't talking about being nice, they're talking about Nice, France and a then upcoming conference.

    In those few examples, we can see that there was:


    1. Corruption of Data - Use of a "Nature Trick" to "hide the decline". That means there was "padding" of the numbers to achieve a desired result.
    2. Further evidence of data corruption: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't." They later did.
    3. Conspiracy - an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act. At least 4 in this email conspiring to destroy evidence.
    4. Violent fantasies of destroying critics - "I'll be tempted to beat the crap out of him. Very tempted." Speaks for itself.
    5. Hiding of evidence - ". . . it would be nice to try to "contain" the putative "MWP", even if we don't yet have a hemispheric mean reconstruction available that far back." The "MWP" (Midieval Warm Period) was a time period (950 C.E. to 1250 C.E.) when temperatures were comparable to those we see today. "Containing" that problem means to "hide" or "obfuscate" the data which would show that a similar event happened long before the industrial revolution, thus giving more "credibility" to the allegation that MAN is causing the problem.
    6. Attacks against critics - If you can discredit a witness in a trial, then their testimony will carry less weight and even risk being thrown out. Thus they attacked on different levels those SCIENTISTS who offered dissenting views. The attacks continue today.


    The problem with accepting theory as fact comes when the person or persons promoting the theory have an ulterior motive in promoting that theory. Whether it be coverup, monetary gain, prominance, or something else --- there is gain to be made from the promotion of this theory of MMGW and thus greed rears its ugly head. This one thing --- GREED --- has been the cause of all the world's problems.

    So, yes, I understand the concept of scientific theory. I use it in my daily work.
    Jason in Enid and Dave44 like this.
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
    - George Washington

    *

    Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

    Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

    Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    - Isaiah 5:20

    *

    News stories are like a creek. Always remember to get the new that's UPSTREAM FROM THE HERD!

    *

    We now return you to your state sponsored and regulated day.


  13. #32
    Charter Member
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    Ouch... Logic. Truth. And provable bias. That cannot be good for the church of Gore!

  14. #33
    us
    Pirate Captain

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    Pick the preferable:

    Global warming.

    Global cooling.

    Exactly. I live in Chicago. Imma gonna smack the first person to tax me in order to make it colder.
    Chadeaux likes this.
    My free puzzle/riddle/code website IS ALIVE! http://www.treasuredhunt.com

  15. #34
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I love it !

    too hot to do anything but be Lazy


    and I never want to see a temp below 60 again

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by jeff of pa; Jul 06, 2012 at 05:27 PM.
    Chadeaux and Michigan Badger like this.

  16. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff of pa View Post
    May 11th. 36 Degrees,


    Attachment 634517

    Show me 100 + degrees across the globe simultaneously for 30 days,
    I'll believe it
    You can't make someone believe or disbelieve something they don't want to.
    MrLee likes this.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." — Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  17. #36
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    hit 104 here yesterday

    Still dosn't mean "Global" Warming.

    I'm sure somewhere it was snowing.

    & it's only 80 here now

  18. #37

    Nov 2007
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    3215 high temperature records were set in June this year. 58% of the U.S. of A. is in the grip of a severe drought, I think it's just like those summers of old.
    May you know peace all the years of your life

  19. #38
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff of pa View Post
    hit 104 here yesterday

    Still dosn't mean "Global" Warming.

    I'm sure somewhere it was snowing.

    & it's only 80 here now
    Correct Jeff. Too many fear mongers equate temperature with weather trends. Temperature is today, weather trends are long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by davest View Post
    3215 high temperature records were set in June this year. 58% of the U.S. of A. is in the grip of a severe drought, I think it's just like those summers of old.
    Actually, I would love to know who cooked the temperature books. 1980 was the hottest summer of my 54 years, but no one talks about it. Hundreds in Texas alone died from the heat and drought. 100 degrees was considered a "cool spell" that July and August. I remember getting to work at 7:00 and the temp was already in the 90's . . . did construction work that summer. Farms in Arkansas were on the national news because of the severe heat and drought. Was funny sitting in Houston watching farmers from Ashley County, Arkansas (where I live) speaking about the weather.

    In Arkansas 1986, we were over 100 from the second week of June through the second week in August when the remnants of a hurricane cooled us off and gave us the first rain in almost 3 months.

    It has been worse, it has been nicer. You know what though? If it wasn't hot, it wouldn't be summer . . . just like we expect to be cold in the winter. The only weird thing to me is how the MMGW loonies think extreme cold is evidence of global warming, but extreme heat can't evidence global cooling. If one makes sense, then surely the other does as well
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
    - George Washington

    *

    Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

    Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

    Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

    - Isaiah 5:20

    *

    News stories are like a creek. Always remember to get the new that's UPSTREAM FROM THE HERD!

    *

    We now return you to your state sponsored and regulated day.


  20. #39
    us
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    Whatever is causing the weather changes one thing is for sure--Michigan has definitely changed in the last 1/2 century or so.

    Back in the 60's I worked with old timers who remembered running supply sleighs (like early trucks) during winter. Due to poor roads and weak automobiles, sleighs were the vehicles of choice working in conjunction with the various railroad lines. The trains moved the heavy loads to the general areas and in mid February the sleighs moved the goods to smaller villages and towns. This was not a job for the weak and weary. The runs had to be kept packed down and the drivers had to stay on the path or become hopelessly stuck. If one got stuck one was in danger of freezing to death along with the horses. Staying on that exact path was extremely challenging during a blizzard (from 1890's to 1920's there were many).

    My old timer friend drove the line from Grand Haven Michigan to Grand Rapids (all small villages in between). He often got stuck and had to wait for another team to arrive and rescue him. He said the snow was so deep the horses (giant plow horses) couldn't move (let alone a man).

    Today this whole range rarely gets too deep for a small boy to walk in mid February. Usually the dwellers gripe about there not being enough snow for decent snowmobiling.

    When I was a teen we raced cars on the bayous in western Michigan. Today a seagull can barely stand on the ice in mid winter.
    "Everything is an anomaly" Michigan Badger

  21. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigan Badger View Post
    Whatever is causing the weather changes one thing is for sure--Michigan has definitely changed in the last 1/2 century or so.

    Back in the 60's I worked with old timers who remembered running supply sleighs (like early trucks) during winter. Due to poor roads and weak automobiles, sleighs were the vehicles of choice working in conjunction with the various railroad lines. The trains moved the heavy loads to the general areas and in mid February the sleighs moved the goods to smaller villages and towns. This was not a job for the weak and weary. The runs had to be kept packed down and the drivers had to stay on the path or become hopelessly stuck. If one got stuck one was in danger of freezing to death along with the horses. Staying on that exact path was extremely challenging during a blizzard (from 1890's to 1920's there were many).

    My old timer friend drove the line from Grand Haven Michigan to Grand Rapids (all small villages in between). He often got stuck and had to wait for another team to arrive and rescue him. He said the snow was so deep the horses (giant plow horses) couldn't move (let alone a man).

    Today this whole range rarely gets too deep for a small boy to walk in mid February. Usually the dwellers gripe about there not being enough snow for decent snowmobiling.

    When I was a teen we raced cars on the bayous in western Michigan. Today a seagull can barely stand on the ice in mid winter.
    Here in the late 60's Interstate 81 used to get so much snow it would be a parking lot for days.
    Snow mobiles would be called into service to rescue those who couldn't walk the 4 Mile to
    Shelters. would be almost a parade of people walking past my house.
    this would happen every year.

    I would walk out my Walkway & not be able to see over the snow.

    By the way, I was probably under 4 feet tall,
    and the sidewalks were shoveled into piles on the sides

    as for the Interstate, over the years PENDOT Has bought more snow removal equipment
    & Learned to do their jobs.
    the interstate was built here in the late 60's

    My point in most cases it may just seem like less due to we are now in the 21st century & Older.

    Think about it, in many areas in the 50's & 60's you could run the cops too,
    and loose them, by reaching the end of the boro or township.
    Now odds are they will have the time and equipment to call ahead & have several
    backups within seconds.
    Last edited by jeff of pa; Jul 08, 2012 at 04:49 PM.

 

 
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