Claims and buying... what to look for how to find them?

[outwardjourney]

Okay, well after doing research on how to use the BLM LR2000 system, I have a couple of questions as I would like to go forward on a more advanced topic of claims. I know everyone talks about buying claims and yada yada.... I'd never buy a claim from someone on feebay or anything like that. This question is more geared towards doing the leg work and finding a claim myself.

HOWEVER.... I can find active claims on the BLM LR2000, and I have spotted closed claims as well. My question is, are 'closed' claims closed for reasons? I mean the BLM does not seem to give information as to why the claim was closed in the first place. Is it because they're abandoned? Fees not paid? I would like to check out some of these close claims and see if there is any goodies to be found on one sometime. And speaking of goodies, let's say there are goodies. How does one go about reclaiming the claim (pun intended)?

 

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[B H Prospector]

If I recollect right closed means it has been closed to mineral extraction. Translation "no mining". You are looking for claims that are inactive. Those are the ones that were abandoned or fees not paid or for what ever reason let go. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. As far as reclaiming, you aren't reclaiming you are making a new claim. Get a claim filing info packet from the BLM and fill it out. File the papers with the County first and then with the BLM. The packet will explain the proccess.

Good Luck!

BH Prospector

 

[goldenIrishman]

Clay Diggens is working on a series that will cover all of this in detail.

As to how to look for claims, that would depend on what kind of claim you're interested in. Placer? Lode? Patented Land? Which area of the country are you wanting this claim? Do your research into the history of the area when it comes to mining. Out here there are areas with lots of gold in them and every commercial operation that has tried to get it out has failed due to lack of available water. Some areas have only tiny little placer deposits and don't hold enough gold for them to be worth the time of the big boys. Depending on the area, you may even find a real estate agent that has lines on some claims. I found one in Oregon that had listings for a couple of turn key operations as well as patented land.

You should also test ANY claim you are interested in before you put your money on the table! If the seller won't allow you to test then walk away as fast as you can!!

 

[Clay Diggins]

The BLM uses "CLOSED" on their claim case files to indicate a claim case file that is no longer valid.

To find out why the claim case was closed run the Mining Claim Serial number through the BLM Serial Register page and select the PDF format from the menu at the top of the result page. The reason the claim was closed will be in that PDF file.

Almost all claim cases are CLOSED because of non-payment or late filings. Usually people just don't pay the annual fees when the claim has no more interest for them. Closed claims are usually a good indication that either the claimant didn't know what they were doing, or the claim wasn't worth the trouble.

The four BLM claim case status are:

ACTIVE
CLOSED
VOID
PENDING

The last two are very rare. Almost all cases are ACTIVE or CLOSED. There is no such thing as INVALID or INACTIVE status.

I would be very leery of using any of the BLM "forms". Many of them do not meet the requirements to make or keep your claim. The only BLM form that is required is the Small Miners "Waiver Certification" due on or before August 31 for those who wish to claim the fee exemption. The rest of the "forms" are not required nor are they OMB approved or certified.

 

[fowledup]

Clay, you really should do some seminars, or webinars. I don't think you'd have a problem filling up the place, you could be the Tony Robbins of Mining,LOL! I'm pretty think headed so I'd probably have to attend twice.

 

[B H Prospector]

The BLM uses "CLOSED" on their claim case files to indicate a claim case file that is no longer valid.

To find out why the claim case was closed run the Mining Claim Serial number through the BLM Serial Register page and select the PDF format from the menu at the top of the result page. The reason the claim was closed will be in that PDF file.

Almost all claim cases are CLOSED because of non-payment or late filings. Usually people just don't pay the annual fees when the claim has no more interest for them. Closed claims are usually a good indication that either the claimant didn't know what they were doing, or the claim wasn't worth the trouble.

The four BLM claim case status are:

ACTIVE
CLOSED
VOID
PENDING

The last two are very rare. Almost all cases are ACTIVE or CLOSED. There is no such thing as INVALID or INACTIVE status.

I would be very leery of using any of the BLM "forms". Many of them do not meet the requirements to make or keep your claim. The only BLM form that is required is the Small Miners "Waiver Certification" due on or before August 31 for those who wish to claim the fee exemption. The rest of the "forms" are not required nor are they OMB approved or certified.

Not quite right Clay, You most likely are correct about classifations, the inactive class was used years ago when I last used the BLM site. However a" miners waiver certification"
is not all that is needed. On a new claim you must also file an "intent to hold". Also on an existing claim you must file a "affidavit of annual assessment work" by December 30 of the current year if you filed the miners waiver certification. If the miners waiver certification is not filed and recieved by September 1 you must pay the claim fee of $140 per twenty acres of claim for each claim filed for on or before September 1. Also the forms from the BLM are valid as that is where they told me to get them this spring when they sent me the last forms they said they will ever send to me. We must now go to their web site to get the forms. I know they are valid as I just recieved copies back from them last week on the claims I own. I always have them send me back copies of my paperwork on my claims after I file for my records. Also don't forget to file with the county your claim is in every year. That is what gives you your legal title to the claim.

Good Luck!

BH Prospector

 

[Clay Diggins]

Not quite right Clay, You most likely are correct about classifations, the inactive class was used years ago when I last used the BLM site. However a" miners waiver certification"
is not all that is needed.

You must have misunderstood me B H Prospector. I guess I wasn't clear. I never wrote that a Small Miners "Waiver Certification" was all that was needed.

My point was that the only approved "form" that the BLM has to offer is the Small Miners "Waiver Certification". All the other "forms" that they have for miners are unapproved and unofficial forms.

You are right that the Small Miner needs to make his status public at the Recorder's and file the information with the BLM but there are no approved forms for those recordings. Using the one's offered by the BLM or following their instructions can lead to a loss of your claim.

The warning was against relying on the various "forms" offered by different BLM & State mining offices. The BLM is neither your lawyer nor your friend. Relying on information on their various websites and handouts is a false security.

I hope that helps.

 

[mcordell]

Public land is so easy. I've found gold under the picnic table at some sites. Claims are a hassle.

 

[B H Prospector]

Clay I think we are both confusing each other. While yes you need to file with the BLM, their forms approved or not is not what will give you a legal leg to stand on in court. It is the county record that gives ownership. The BLM will File any number of claims on the same piece of ground and not know it or care. The notice of location is what needs to be recorded on a new claim with the county and the affidavit of annual assessment work each following year to keep a claim current. The notice of location is the most important to show ownership of the claim when it comes to who owned it first. The BLM doesn't get involved in claim ownership cases. They have told me they just record the claims and aren't concerned with ownership. The forms on their web site are valid for the BLM purposes but like I said have no bearing on proving ownership of a claim. Too many people think by filing with the BLM gives them ownership of a claim, hence seeing so many new claims. We call them paperhangers where I live. Most are out of state and have never been here. I came accross one recently who filed a claim here with the BLM and recorded it in a Wyoming county. It is not a valid claim because it has to be filed in the county and state the claim is located in.
What I said about bLM forms is I use what they sent me this year. They told me that from now on I will need to get the forms from their web site because they will no longer send them too any miners due to cut backs. So the forms are valid on their web site. I know this is true because the BLM and my county have accepted and recorded and returned a copy to me. I have been doing this for years and have never had a problem.

 

[Clay Diggins]

What I said about bLM forms is I use what they sent me this year. They told me that from now on I will need to get the forms from their web site because they will no longer send them too any miners due to cut backs. So the forms are valid on their web site. I know this is true because the BLM and my county have accepted and recorded and returned a copy to me. I have been doing this for years and have never had a problem.

Neither the BLM nor the County Recorder is in charge of making sure your Location documents will withstand a challenge. The fact that they have been "accepting" them without objection for years is proof that it's not their responsibility. It's not proof that your paperwork is correct.

I've made a note to address this ongoing misunderstanding in my upcoming series on prospecting and making claims. A lot of miners have come to rely on the BLM to provide guidance in their claims dealings. This can be a fatal mistake.

If you want to learn more before my articles are published you can get a taste of how you can lose your claim following BLM instructions and using their "forms" by reading the Art Anderson IBLA ruling from 2010.

 

[Underburden]

Outwardjourney
If you are selecting land to claim based on the "Closed" status, cross reference the location to the 'Active' claims.
Some of those 'Active' claims are previously 'Closed' claims. The exact same claim can be found in both the 'Active' and 'Closed' claim search only with a different owner. The only way to know for sure is to write down the 'County Recordation' number found on the Serial Register page and head for the county recorder's office to view the original location notice & map.

Bob

 

[B H Prospector]

Outwardjourney
If you are selecting land to claim based on the "Closed" status, cross reference the location to the 'Active' claims.
Some of those 'Active' claims are previously 'Closed' claims. The exact same claim can be found in both the 'Active' and 'Closed' claim search only with a different owner. The only way to know for sure is to write down the 'County Recordation' number found on the Serial Register page and head for the county recorder's office to view the original location notice & map.

Bob

Exactly what I have been saying. The county record is the legal proof of ownership, not the BLM. Clay you seem to be reading more into what I am saying. The BLM forms are valid for BLM recording, but it is the county the claim is recorded in that proves ownership and has stood up in civil court claim cases. Yes too many miners think the BLM has the say and are wrong to believe so.

 

[Clay Diggins]

The county record is the legal proof of ownership, not the BLM.

In most cases that is absolutely the case B H Prospector. I never wrote otherwise. You are reading something into what I wrote that I never meant. The County Recorder is the only official keeper of the public record of your claim. Only the County Recorder can certify your location record for a court of law.

The BLM forms are valid for BLM recording,

And this is my point. The BLM FORMS are NOT valid for filing at the BLM OR recording at the County. With the exception of the Small Miners "Waiver Certification" none of the forms the BLM offer you by mail or online are official or correct.

Using the BLM published FORMS and FILING DEADLINES can cause you to lose your claims. DO NOT rely on the BLM to provide you with BLM filing or County recording forms or information. They can not be held legally responsible when following their advice causes you to lose your claim.

I will write more about this issue later. If you doubt that people are losing their claims look up the Art Anderson case I cited earlier or study 44 USC 3507 so you will understand why the BLM "forms" have not been OMB approved. Many people lose their claims using those forms and following BLM advice.

 

[BiggusDiggus]

So what would be the proper method to obtain a claim? Get BLM land use maps for the state you are interested in- Go to said county-talk to the county office to see what is available-try to locate minerals on properties-follow BLM claim procedure with posts/claim forms/etc.-then go to the county office and the BLM with money for form processing? Im new to all this and interested in obtaining claim land in CO...Any help would be appreciated. Have tried to figure the BLM website and have yet to succeed...would like to have a better understanding of the claim process before I venture to CO and put feet on the ground/Don't want to jump any claims or break the law...Thanks in advance!!

 

[KevinInColorado]

So what would be the proper method to obtain a claim? Get BLM land use maps for the state you are interested in- Go to said county-talk to the county office to see what is available-try to locate minerals on properties-follow BLM claim procedure with posts/claim forms/etc.-then go to the county office and the BLM with money for form processing? Im new to all this and interested in obtaining claim land in CO...Any help would be appreciated. Have tried to figure the BLM website and have yet to succeed...would like to have a better understanding of the claim process before I venture to CO and put feet on the ground/Don't want to jump any claims or break the law...Thanks in advance!!

I'm only part way down the trail myself here in CO. I visited the County Clerk & Recorder office and they said I should start at the BLM. Go there with the Township/Range/Section info to learn the names of the claims and claim owners in your area of interest, then bring those names back to the County to find the docs filed for those Claims. The County has things sorted by claim name and by owner name...not by location. I haven't actually gone to the BLM (or their website) yet so I can't say for sure that this approach will work. Love to hear advice from others in CO on the sequence of steps to take and relevant details.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Ya know... It's almost like they don't WANT us to be filing claims. The entire process could be streamlined and made much easier. You get one set of instructions from BLM, and something different from the County in question. Sounds to me like neither one of them has people working for them that actually know which end is up. Of course seeing as that they're govt employees they're not really interested in helping you out anyway. Fire them all and replace them with people that actually want to help (like Clay) and we'd all be better off!

 

[gold tramp]

I have to ask you guys over in AZ . Are you actually getting grounds worthy of claiming and are you producing any thing that is sizable gold in paying amounts
is anyone getting big oz strikes off their claims lately ? would like to see some pics of AZ gold n opperations.

just wondering all this talk of claims I may be missing something here.
GT............

 

[goldenIrishman]

I can't say for the other areas (Rich Hill, Stanton, etc etc etc) but Greaterville still has plenty of good gold for small operators like Robi and myself. The main issue in the majority of the state is water to process with. Lack of it has closed down many a larger operation in the past. Like any location, the key to making it work comes down to research, research and even more research. I don't mean surfing the web or running around poking holes everywhere either. I've been studying geology, history, maps, you name it to narrow down where Mother Nature hid the gold in that area.

Programs like Clays "FootPrints" series are a huge help in researching areas out here too! Clay isn't one to toot his own horn, but the FootPrint maps are some of the best on the market. Many of you know Clay from here on the forum. Now imagine having his knowledge of specific areas accessible on your computer and you'll have an idea of how good these map sets are! Very well thought out and easy to use. Would I make changes to them? Sure I would, but only to the G.U.I. and then only to add a couple of features. But then again I'm an old code slinger and love to play with computer code. FootPrints Home Check them out for yourself and I'm sure you'll agree that Clay did a great job on them.

 

[B H Prospector]

So Clay we just follow anarchy, do what we want, don't worry about whos land we are on and start digging because no matter what forms have been filled out and filed with whom ever, county or BLM, it doesn't matter because no one has a legal leg to stand on because no form is valid or legal. So all of you GPAA members and members of private clubs, drop your memberships because they can't stop you from digging on their claims because the forms they filed aren't worth the paper they are printed on. From everything you have said in this thread Clay, This is how it is right. There is not one single valid or legal claim because all the forms offered by the BLM or county is not valid. Correct? One final question. The filing deadlines are part of the fedral mining law are they not? If not just miss the deadlines and try to keep your claim.

 

[Clay Diggins]

So Clay we just follow anarchy, do what we want, don't worry about whos land we are on and start digging because no matter what forms have been filled out and filed with whom ever, county or BLM, it doesn't matter because no one has a legal leg to stand on because no form is valid or legal. So all of you GPAA members and members of private clubs, drop your memberships because they can't stop you from digging on their claims because the forms they filed aren't worth the paper they are printed on. From everything you have said in this thread Clay, This is how it is right. There is not one single valid or legal claim because all the forms offered by the BLM or county is not valid. Correct?

Why all the drama BH? I never wrote any of those things. Why do you want to put words in my mouth? How does making this stuff up help anyone get gold? Just calm down and read my upcoming articles - it will all be clear then.

One final question. The filing deadlines are part of the fedral mining law are they not? If not just miss the deadlines and try to keep your claim.

To answer your question the filing deadlines are Federal and they are August 31 and December 30. Both those deadlines were set by acts of Congress.

The BLM will tell you the deadlines are actually September 1st and December 31st. Follow their filing instructions and you will lose your claim just like Art Anderson and so many others have.